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File:BTHaloburger.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Founding year

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The founding year should be 1923, when Kewpee began. The years that Bill Thomas took over and the name was changed to Halo Burger are only minor details that does not change the fact that the founding year, which is also on its logo, is 1923. Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:54, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

yup, that is Kewpee's founding year NOT Halo Burgers. Halo Burgers did not exist in 1923. Do they have some claim to that year from owning the original restaurant, yes, as my edits left that intact. But the Blair's Kewpee business was split into two in 1944, thus create a new business, the original location and the Kewpee brand with Blair. So 1923 is not so cut and dried. Does some new McDonald franchise say found in 2011 that buys a existing McDonald location from the McDonald's Corporation get to claim that they were found the same year as McDonalds? I think not. Under your senario they would. So Kewpee can't claim to be found in 1923 because Halo Burgers is? Manta business profile for Haloburger shows that it was founded in 1944. When Bill Thomas leased the location is not a minor detail. It at the point of a spin out of a part of a business thus a new business. Spshu (talk) 12:44, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Halo Burger still considers 1923 its founding year. Their flagship burger is still the same as it was when it was Kewpee, but is now called the QP. It is NOT considered a split when the flagship restaurant is involved which moved from the original Harrison Street location to the east side of Flint on East Court Street. Remember that the Halo Burger logo clearly says "Heavenly Since 1923" and the Halo Burger history page on their official web site also says 1923. Steelbeard1 (talk) 13:23, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Their site doesn't list their tri-cities expansion except for the existance of the Birch Run location, so that didn't happen and it seemed like they had a location in the Genesee Valley Mall and they did list a Corunna Road location, but neither are on the website either, so I guess none of it happen. Once again the website and the logo is "self" sourcing, ie. using the material or document created by the subject of the article. It is a business self interest to claim as far back as they can for marketing purposes.
The flagship restaurant did not "move" in 1944 that is when Thomas' began his business by leasing the orginal location. He did not have any interest in the original business which continued licensing the Kewpee name and owning the original location. It was a spin off business as he was a licensee and leasee. Spshu (talk) 22:04, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sam Blair retired and his employee Bill Thomas leased the restaurant from Blair so it is a continuation. Bonafied journalistic citations such as [1] also indicate 1923 as the founding year. Steelbeard1 (talk) 01:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Said source indicates: "Halo Burger evolved from Kewpee Hotel Hamburgers, which began in Flint around 1923, according to Flint Journal files." Thus supporting my version that Haloburger did not spring up only in 1923. The other Flint Journal article you cite in the article is indirectly quoting Mr. Thomas. No there was not a full continuation of the Blair business, as Blair still owned the Kewpee business. At this point, you will be edit warring if you reverse my edits. Spshu (talk) 13:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, the restaurant changed its name in 1967 with the management and food exactly the same. Using your concept, do you want to change the founding year to 2010 when the Thomas family sold Halo Burger to Dortch Enterprises??????? Steelbeard1 (talk) 13:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Once again the source says: "Halo Burger evolved from Kewpee Hotel Hamburgers, which began in Flint around 1923, according to Flint Journal files." Spshu (talk) 13:29, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And that IS the founding year. Period. Compare this to another, larger restaurant chain which also evolved. Big Boy Restaurants was founded in California in 1936 as Bob's Pantry. Big Boy is the name of its flagship double-deck hamburger and became the official name of the chain in 2000. But the founding year is still 1936. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Coming here after seeing a notice here. I don't see what the problem is with saying it was founded in 1923. While it is true there is an evolution of sorts involved, I don't think there is any question that the business traces its origin to 1923. In some ways, the business that is now called Kewpee has a weaker association to the founding date than Halo Burger. Ed Adams bought the trademark and some corporate functions while the Flint location had a more direct continuity of operations under Thomas. older ≠ wiser 14:20, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm here because of the same notice. As I understand the situation, a restaurant was founded in 1923, originally called "Kewpee". The original founder eventually licensed the use of the name to other restaurants and leased out his original restaurant. In 1958 the lessee bought the restaurant and continued to pay a license fee for the name "Kewpee". In 1967, rather than become a franchisee, the owner renamed the restaurant "Halo Burger". It appears to have been a single continuous operation from the 1923 founding until 1979 when the original location was vacated (demolished?), and by that time it had developed into a small chain, which has continued to the present day. As long as the changes of name and ownership are adequately explained in the article (I think they are), I think 1923 is the most appropriate year to list for the establishment of Halo Burger. cmadler (talk) 14:59, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Because the Blair's Kewpee business split into two in 1944 not totally sold to Thomas who then sold the Kewpee part to some one else. I have never disclaimed 1923 if you look at my edits, as quoted from the article that the business "evolved" and was not founding a particular year. And I have [source for 1944. Steelbeard1 claims that only 1923 is a valid founding date because it is in the logo or the former owner was quoted. Steelbeard1 is also the author of one of the source that indicate an evolved founding.
Sorry, Steelbeard1, but the Big Boy situation is different and any one can edit the article even you to prove a point or be inaccurate. Spshu (talk) 18:57, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But if read the other replies, they agree with me. Halo Burger was founded in 1923. Period. Also, the link you provided is not valid because it is hopelessly outdated. The list of people is BEFORE Halo Burger was sold to Dortch Enterprises. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Only agree on what to list in the infobox. Your article is outdated too, so should I remove that too? As that article was before it was sold to Dortch. Spshu (talk) 19:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And Dortch states that Halo Burger was founded in 1923. End of argument. You cannot argue with a corporate logo. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, this vintage photo of a Halo Burger bag from the Bill Thomas era at [2] settles the argument once and for all. Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having a hard time understanding Spshu's point. The company did not split in 1944. That appears to be the year that Thomas incorporated his company to formally continue doing what he had already been doing at the Flint location of the chain. The chain was not like today's franchises where every location is nearly identical. The chain up until the 1960s appears to have been a loose collection of distinct, more or less independent establishments sharing some common elements. I'm not sure it is necessary to stuff a lot of detail and references into the infobox that may be better explained in the text. For instance, this version actually seems incorrect in that it was originally established in 1923 as "Kewpee Hotel Hamburgs", not "Kewpee". And is there evidence for the name being "Thomas's Kewpee"? I did not see that in the references. Then in 1967 it became "Bill Thomas' Halo Burger" not simply "Halo Burger". But, that level of detail belongs in the text not in the infobox. older ≠ wiser 21:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the nth time, Steelbeard1, marketing material like a logo are not usable sources on Wikipedia. Nor are blogs. Neither "settles the argument once and for all." Given your need to use such sources, I will have to withdrawal my support for your article on Halo Burger being a legimate source. You have never address the issue of the Haloburger.com website not mentioning their Tri-cities area expansion any more. Since the website is marketing material, it thus must be accure, right? So it now really didn't happen according to you. O, but the Birch Run location that was part of that expansion is still open, right?
Kewpee in the infobox is short for Kewpee Hotel Hamburgs & is name of its article. "Halo Burger" is short for "Bill Thomas' Halo Burger". Most people would recognize this as this commonly accures as people don't neccessary address you by your full name each and ever time they see you nor do reporters repeat a full company name each and every time they refer to them in an article. Thomas was not an owner of any part of Kewpee before 1944, so he was not "formally continue doing what he had already been doing". Article: "Thomas began leasing the Harrison Street, Flint location from Blair upon his retirement on April 1, 1944." (Retirement being loosely used here as he continued his Kewpee business by lease the original location and licensing out the name.) Thus in 1944, Thomas started a business to run a licensed Kewpee location that he leased, hence nicknamed Thomas's Kewpee -- since it was run under the licensed Kewpee name and we have no idea what his real business name was and the only reasonal non-original research way to identity it -- which would change its name to Haloburger. The split I refer to is in Blair's "Kewpee Hotel Hamburgs" original business founded at the location Thomas leased which still owned the original location until 1958. Thomas actually owned another location (1951) before he owned the original location (1958).
    • 1923 Blair's "Kewpee Hotel Hamburgs" starts
    • 1933 Thomas goes to work at "Kewpee Hotel Hamburgs"
    • 1939 "Kewpee Hotel Hamburgs" has 200 locations
    • 1944 Thomas's starts his business (at this time did not even own the location)
    • 1951 Thomas expanded with a second Kewpee location with the purchase of Vernor’s Ginger Ale building"
    • 1958 Thomas final purchases the Harrison St. (original) location -- see the business didn't even own the location for 14 years! Kewpee Hotel Hamburgs owned during that period.
    • 1967 changes name of business to "Bill Thomas' Halo Burger"
Sources for my position:
"— whose father created the business from Kewpee Hotel Hamburgers —"
"I've been doing this for 57 years and have loved every day of it," Thomas said. "But after 66 years, we are selling. Today is our last day." (2010-66=1944)
"Halo Burger evolved from Kewpee Hotel Hamburgers,.." Spshu (talk) 14:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BKonrad gave the reply which Spshu was replying to, NOT me. Consensus is NOT going Spshu's way. The details belong in the text of the article. The infobox gives the founding year as 1923. Period. Any attempts to change the founding year will be immediately reverted. If Spshu attempts to change that, he risks being blocked from editing. Steelbeard1 (talk) 15:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Calm down. Both of you, please. There's no place for ultimatiums or threats either way. While I think Spshu takes a peculiarly narrow interpretation of the sources, the paucity of reliable sources leaves much of the timeline of events open to questions. older ≠ wiser 15:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry but some one comming down on me like I don't know any thing and fails to pay attention to what they say or what I say. (Bkonrad, go count how many times he brings up some marketing material like the logo or uses the Halo Burger website or a picture of a Halo Burger bag on my talk page or here then I point out that those are not WP reliable sources. He doesn't care about WP guidlines.) He has made it clear that he intends to edit war over this going so far as to find other to help him with it (as shown on my talk page). Consensus means we all agree not just a vote, Steelbeard1. I am taking a very wide view not a narrow view that only one year can be listed and I am not claim that 1923 is completely wrong. I just gave you some sources. Even straight out of Thomas' mouth. I edited the article such that only one year is list in the infobox but links to a section to show that it isn't all cut and dried just 1923. Is this satisfactory, Bkonrad. Spshu (talk) 15:54, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:SELFSOURCE as it IS acceptable. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:05, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(after ec) Linking to either the timeline or history section from the infobox is OK I think, though it is a bit of an easter egg as currently formed. I don't think it's fair to say Steelbeard doesn't care about WP guidelines. Evidence and sources come in a variety of forms and require some evaluation. By themselves, the logo and other marketing materials might not be definitive for "truth", but they clearly support a statement that the enterprise makes that claim. If there are reliable sources that explicitly challenge the veracity of those statements, that would certainly be of interest. But if it requires a sort of original research to draw conclusions from offhand statements in other sources, that is not particularly convincing. older ≠ wiser 16:22, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bkonrad, One source does point blank states 1944: Manta's Haloburger business profile. Steelbeard1, it fails under "1.the material is not unduly self-serving;". It is self-serving as it tries to claim a greater length of existance for the company than may truly exists. Additional, other places in WP guidelines state: "Reliable sources generally include mainstream news media and major academic journals, and exclude self-published sources, particularly when self-published on the internet. The foundation of this theory is that such sources 'exercise some form of editorial control.'" Also note for those saying do to the Thomas's ownership of the original location that they have the greater claim on the 1923 year. The Kewpee business itself owned the original location for 35 (1923-1958) to 21 years for the Thomases (1958-1979). Or another way to look at it is Kewpee (1923-1944) owned & operated for 21 years, (1944-1958) Kewpee owned and Thomas operated for 14 years and Thomas owned and operated (1958-1979) for 21 years. Spshu (talk) 15:58, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, see WP:SELFSOURCE. Steelbeard1 (talk) 17:39, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, once again you should see WP:SELFSOURCE and read what people write.Spshu (talk) 12:50, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It simply states:

Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as: 

1.the material is not unduly self-serving;
2.the material does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);
3.the material does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
4.there is no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity and source of the material;
5.the article is not based primarily on such sources.

These requirements also apply to pages from social networking sites such as Twitter and Facebook.

Okay, what DO people write since all I see are the five criteria listed above? Steelbeard1 (talk) 13:13, 10 April 2012 (UTC) Please actually apply it. I pointed out the violation here and wrote. You fail to read what is writen, no further responses will ever be made to you as you continually waste people's time. Spshu (talk) 18:43, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is a proven fact. Both under Thomas family management and Dortch Enterprises management, Halo Burger was established as founded in 1923. Shown on Bill Thomas' Halo Burger wrapping and on the current logo introduced by Dortch Enterprises. This is perfectly acceptable under WP:SELFSOURCE. Also, bonafied journalistic sources such as [3] say 1923. Manta is NOT an acceptable source because it is outdated and just covers a change in corporate management. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:30, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For your informatin, Bkonrad, checking out the state corporate records for Halo Burger, Thomas' business pre-1967 was Thomas' Kewpee (incorporated in 1962). Also, Bill Thomas' Halo Burger, Inc. is still around control by the Thomases with Dortch Enterprises start up Dortch Halo Enterpises and Dortch Halo location LLCs. So it looks like Thomas just sold the assets of Halo Burger to Dortch Enterprises. Of course, I can use those sources as they are primary source and would be original research. Spshu (talk) 17:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, under WP:OR original research is NOT ALLOWED by Wikipedia. The journalistic citations as well as info from the Halo Burger web site gives the undisputed founding year as 1923. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I see how refering to the state records is WP:OR. That policy states Material based purely on primary sources should be avoided. But this is not based purely on primary sources. Similarly, the policy states A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. Unless you (Spshu) are making a contrived interpretation of the sources or misrepresenting what they say, I don't see the problem in using the sources to describe the history of the enterprise. However, I don't think those references alone are sufficient to unambiguously conclude when the Halo Burger restaurant originated. older ≠ wiser 18:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So I am avoiding using primary sources; the policy does seem to have a problem with that. Second there were a number of mergers with about 6 or more corporations so it is hard to know exactly what each corporation represent. I bring it up since you questioned my use of Thomas' Kewpee to describe the Thomas's business when he operated under the Kewpee name. Which I found it odd that you objected to that discription since that was stated in the article that he operated under the Kewpee name during that time (1944-1967).
"And is there evidence for the name being 'Thomas's Kewpee'? I did not see that in the references."
How else would some one reference (name) a Kewpee restaurant operated by Thomas as opposed to Wilson's, Adam's, Blair's, Weston's, etc. with out knowing the official business name? Spshu (talk) 20:31, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still unclear what the issue is. Yes, I had previously questioned that the references provided at that time did not offer any indication of "Thomas's Kewpee" being the name used. You have found a reference for "Thomas' Kewpee" and I have no problem with that. As far as I'm concerned, policy does not prohibit the use of primary sources -- only cautions against inappropriate or careless use. older ≠ wiser 22:33, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The signs on the two Kewpee restaurants when Bill Thomas ran them said "Kewpee" and not "Thomas' Kewpee." Same thing with the ads Thomas ran for Kewpee such as at [4]. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is quite possible that the incorporated name of Thomas's management company might not be the same as the name of the restaurants he operated. older ≠ wiser 22:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is right there in front of you. --- "How else would some one reference (name) a Kewpee restaurant operated by Thomas as opposed to Wilson, Adam, Blair, Weston, etc. with out knowing the official business name?" Spshu (talk) 20:31, 20 April 2012 (UTC) --- Bkonrad, I guess I don't why it bother you even with out a reference. It is a standard pratice, it is the basic used of the Possessive case such that "Thomas' Kewpee" means the Kewpees owned by Thomas" not this is the official name of the compay owned by Thomas. It just seem like the shortest way to do so with out over expanding the infobox. I guess I want to know how to deal with it in the future when the true business name is not known. It is like the problem with this Black History Month article in a newspaper where a local franchisee was called the owner of McDonalds, that isn't accurate as we know it is a public company. I guess it shows in the weakness in WP dropping the business "form" suffixes (like Inc., L.P., LLC, Corporation) in most cases. Spshu (talk) 13:43, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Citation needed for reference?

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What looks like a sloppy edit in the reference section requiring a citation for the official Halo Burger web site was reverted because the insertion is intentional. Does this look right? Steelbeard1 (talk) 17:35, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A better tag is a request for a non-primary source so that was inserted. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:32, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2024

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Please remove Chance Richie as CEO and replace with Daniel Stern. Chance Richie is no longer affiliated with Halo Burger. Thank you MorganHaloBurger (talk) 03:18, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A journalistic citation that is linkable should be included to back up the edit. Steelbeard1 (talk) 03:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. You may re-open this request as necessary. Best, NotAGenious (talk) 16:09, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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