Talk:Halloween/Archive 5

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'Originated in Ireland' - Oh no it didn't

Halloween did not originate in Ireland as quoted in the opening paragraph. It was a 'Celtic' festival, and as such was once known and celebrated across the whole of the British Isles (as well as Brittany in France). It survived, in one form or another, not just in Ireland but Scotland, Wales and England. To describe it as Irish in origin would be to deny the Celtic roots of many within Britain, something the Welsh in particular might not be to happy about.

I tried to amend this bias but some keen so-and-so has returned the page to it's privious stateJunius 11:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I have changed the opening paragraph from "Ireland" to "Britain and Ireland". — Walloon 12:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

You may think this is petty, but it would be better to call Britain and Ireland as "Uk and Ireland, as Northern Ireland is separate to Great Britain and also separate to Ireland.

You can hardly say Halloween originated in the UK, since the United Kingdom didn't come into existence until 1801. "Britain and Ireland" refers to two islands, not two political entities. —Angr 14:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The Samhain festival of fire is definitely an Irish custom. All of the history of Samhain is particularly Irish, and even the name Samhain is of Old Irish language. The Wiccans have somehow focused in on this custom to claim it as their own. Parts of the article are losing focus. MelForbes 22:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Try telling my great-grandfather that he spoke Irish and he would probably have done you a great physical disservice. I am not sure of the spelling but Samhuin is a word in Scots Gael as well. Check Samhain for more information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.153.45.54 (talk) 09:20, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

not only the wiccans but most pagans, and as the celts were pagans i think its our right to 'focus in on this custom' but we do not claim it as our own, we are not trying to steal it from you, it is a time to share and reflect, and as the end of the celtic year it hink it probably dates back before the irish were anywhere near being a unified nation, let alone anything but pagan

The intro... "Halloween originated among the Celts in Ireland, Britain and France as a pagan Celtic harvest festival"... sounds pretty spot on. MelForbes you are right that Samhain is particularly Irish but it can be said to have decended from a broader Celtic festival in the same way that Halloween itself has. Junius 13:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree, there were summer festivals and winter festivals in old Europe. When we talk about Samhain, we are distinctly referring to the Irish festival of fire, as the literature on Samhain is of Old Irish Literature and customs and folklore. It would be a mistake to make direct linkages between the various European cultures as regards Samhain. Whatever the distant history of Halloween, it is Ireland that it has been celebrated without interruption for thousands of years, and it was in that country that the tradition was held, even to the present day.

Samhain (Old Ireland) => Halloween (Ireland) => To USA (c 1840's with Irish Famine immigration) => Re-exported by American Culture
.MelForbes 15:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

MelForbes, the UK first paragraph is now more confusing than it was before. You removed Scotland from the list of areas to which the Celts were pushed after the Anglo-Saxon invasions. Are you saying that the Anglo-Saxon invasions did not push the Celts north into Scotland? And what nameless festival did the Celts take into Northern England and Wales? The UK section now says only "the festival" with no antecedent explanation. The Ireland section says, "The Celts celebrated Halloween as Samhain." So, which is it — was Samhain strictly a Gaelic festival, or was it a Celtic festival, celebrated throughout Celtic Ireland, Britain, and France? Please imagine yourself as a lay person, and not the Celtic historian, trying to make sense of this. — Walloon 03:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

My understanding of ancient history is that Caledonia (now Scotland) was inhabited by the Picts. These Picts did not speak the same language as Britain (now England and Wales). About the year 500 A.D. or so, Irish Gales speaking Gaelic Old Irish invaded Caledonia and eventually implanted their culture and language on Caledonia to form what we now call Scotland. The Celts of Britain didn't go on masse to Caledonia with the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons, but mainly went west to Wales and Cumbria. Also, the Celts in Britain (England and Wales) linguistly were P-Celtic, and the Irish were Q-Celtic, so they didn't share a common language. The Picts spoke an unknown language. Therefore the people of Ireland and Britain and Caledonia were not a homogenous race, you cannot attribute Samhain to the Celts in Britain. And because of Scotland's connection with Ireland from about 500 onwards, Samhain may also have been celebrated there too. The article is losing focus,there are a lot of edits that need to be revisited to get things right with it. MelForbes 13:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

As it stands "Halloween originated among the Celts in Ireland, Britain and France" is not incorrect, Scotland is part of Britain as are Wales and England, surely this makes for a comfortable catch all as an area inhabited by the ancient Celts.

It is definitely worth remembering that the Romano-Celtic people of what is now England didn't all retreat to the fringes of the British Isles; many lived on and mixed genetically and culturally with the Anglo-Saxons, Norse, Etc

MelForbes - I don't think anyone is trying to attribute Samhain to anyone else but the Irish, what I believe is being said however is that Halloween is not Samhain but a melange that has its roots in Celtic culture. Junius 16:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a question of how accurate we want the article to be. Scotland was not classed as part of Britain in Roman times. Part of Britannia, yes. Too many editors will eventually un-balance an article. Samhain was Halloween in Ireland, probably called Calan Gaeaf in Britain (England and Wales in Roman times). Halloween is a newer word for the winter festival. MelForbes 17:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Calan Gaeaf is still celebarted under that name in Wales today. http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/myths-customs/pages/events-customs.shtml

(The customs surrounding Dydd Calan, the Welsh New Year, are also quite fascinating) Junius 10:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Requires complete rewrite

Dear all,

this article requires a complete rewrite due to the fact that some sentences are very high-level and then there are sections that dive deep into local customs. If we mention two camps in Saudi, we should also mention some Halloween pockets in South Mongolia. Be more factual on the main points.

15.203.169.124 08:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Spelling

There is a comment from last year about this - Hallowe'en is the correct spelling. Who agrees the page is renamed? --Alex (Talk) 12:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

hallowe'en is AN acceptable spelling, as is halloween, and probably some other variants as well. --dan 23:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

What kind of nut spells something like "Hallowe'en"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.188.18 (talk • contribs)

Uh, me. That is the correct spelling. --Alex (Talk) 03:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you also spell "choose" as "chuse"? That's what they do in the Constitution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.188.18 (talk • contribs)

my fried sitting next to me is a linguist and a speech therapist, she wont pst but says that the english language is so convoluted that many different spellings are acceptable as words have been drawn from countless sources, and the only important factor is whether you can easily understand it.

i think we should use the more mainstream speling for ease of searching on a text based system, but the Hallowe'en spelling looks more, erm, mystical :). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.150.169 (talk • contribs)

The Spelling of Halloween from the old Scots is "Hallowe'en". This is from the old way of amalgamating 2 words to form a new word ie in this case 'Hallowed Evening' where the evening was originally thought to be from dusk to dawn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.158.123 (talk • contribs)

give a holiday a break

All holidays have there beginnings in pagan times. why don't we just enjoy them and quit trying to disect them — 68.201.147.89 23:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Washington's birthday, Columbus Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, and Veterans Day had their beginnings in pagan times? Huh! You can learn a lot at Wikipedia. — Walloon 06:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

you know what he meant, all the universal holidays - usually based on the season/crop cycle, no need to get all patriotic. — 89.240.150.169 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, none of those, including Halloween, are holidays. Holidays are strictly religious days; holiday = holy day. — 71.107.154.123 06:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You sound mighty unsure with that "um".

holiday

1 : HOLY DAY

2 : a day on which one is exempt from work; specifically : a day marked by a general suspension of work in commemoration of an event

3 chiefly British : VACATION -- often used in the phrase on holiday; often used in plural

4 : a period of exemption or relief <corporations enjoying a tax holiday>

— Walloon 08:11, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Midnight

The introduction currently says,

In Christian folklore, because it is an eve, the magic breaks at midnight, with the transition to All Saints' Day — a rare case where midnight brings beneficial effects.

Goldfritha added this same claim to the Wikipedia article on Midnight. Yet all Christian-era folklore I have seen held that midnight was the height of occult activity, not the end. It did not end until sunrise. — Walloon 03:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the passage quoted above. According to the recent book At Day's Close: Night in Times Past, by A. Roger Ekirch (pp. 138-140), the period between midnight and first cock crow (circa 3 a.m.) was considered the "dead of night," when evil spirits were most likely to prowl:

Not just boggarts and witches but the devil himself freely roamed his reign on earth lasting until cock crow, when, warned of the day's approach, demons took flight much as the ghost in Hamlet (ca. 1601). "Then, they say, no spirit dare stir abroad," observed the character Marcellus. This belief was at least as old as the fourth-century writings of the Spanish poet Prudentius. According to the Newcastle antiquary Henry Bourne, centuries later, "Hence, it is, that in country places, where the way of life requires early labour, they always go cheerfully to work at that time [cock crow]; whereas if they are called abroad sooner, they are apt to imagine every thing they see or hear, to be a wandring ghost." Worse was to frequent those hours on certain nights of the year. All Hallows' Eve and the Eve of St. John (Midsummer Eve) in the British Isles, for example . . . .

From the end of the Roman era until about the 16th century, when town clocks became widespread in Europe, the day was reckoned to begin at sundown or sunrise, not at midnight. — Walloon 13:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The old Christian method of determining the end of a day was sunset, as in accord with both Jewish and Roman custom. This is still used in Eastern Christianity. Vespers "officially" ends a day for most Liturgical purposes. Midnight-centric methods came later.Dogface 14:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Quick Little Edit Note

I added "Snap-Apple Night" to the Nicknames section at the top of the page. Snap-Apple Night is a traditional nickname of Halloween (If you need a reference for this it would be "Death Makes a Holiday," a book already cited on this article.

I also suggest that searching for "Snap-Apple Night" redirects to the Halloween article.

Vyarnect 16:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

New Zealand

The reason the info on Halloween in New Zealand was removed was because Halloween is hardly celebrated in NZ, and it is not large enough tradition in the country to include information about it. 203.57.68.20 03:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Ditto for Australia, although someone seems to have put the entries back. But seriously, it is Spring in the southern hemisphere and the halloween atmosphere is just not here. I am an Aussie who has lived in California for a while with young kids, and there is simply no comparison. How can you have a sense of Halloween when the sun is getting brighter, daylight savings kicks in, and water restrictions are kicked up a notch? It's even the wrong season for pumpkins. BTW, Easter has the same problem, but it is celebrated anyway for for the religious and chocolate components. Trishm 11:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Trishm, I don't see any validity in your argument that the seasons have any relevance. Of course, the seasons mattered when these traditions first took place but they have little relevance in the modern world. In the southern hemisphere, Christian countries celebrate Christmas even though it is in the middle of Summer. In my neighbourhood in Brisbane, Queensland, hundreds of children start walking around the streets to do their Halloween trick or treating just on dark which was around 6pm.--Catholicjim 23:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I took out this paragraph, because it seems to assume that the lack of Halloween in the Southern Hemisphere is merely an accident of history.

A common misconception in Australia and in New Zealand is that Halloween is an American tradition when in fact it was brought to the United States by Irish immigrants who had practiced the festival in their own land for at least the previous 3000 years. In the early American colonies, the Irish diaspora were relatively free to practice their cultural and religious traditions. In the British colony of Australia however, Irish language, religion and cultural identification were banned by the British military authorities for decades after the colony was established. Australia was initially a penal colony where many of the forced labour inmates were identified as Irish political prisoners. Only in the late twentieth century, coinciding with the renewal and strengthening of the Irish-Australian cultural identity, have St. Patrick's Day and the much older Halloween festival received growing acceptance. Modern Australian Halloween celebrations are concentrated primarily in the Irish-Australian community but are becoming increasingly accepted in the wider Australian community.

An "accident" of history? I think that you mean, "a design of the British colonial authorities"! Listen, I am an Irish-Australian who has celebrated Halloween since the 1960s in Ireland, the U.S. and Australia. I am also well aware of early European history of Australia. I take great offence to attempts to downplay, censor or erase the contribution that the Irish diaspora has made on Australian society. There are thousands of books and studies which have been written on this subject. I can say with certainty that Irish, and Irish Catholic traditions have were banned for significant periods of time in former British colonies including Australia. During the Penal Laws, enacted by the British colonial occupation authorities in Ireland and Australia, the practice of any Irish cultural traditions was a serious criminal offense. I feel that dismissing the above paragraph, you have further contributed to the anti-Irish sentiment which is so strong in some former British colonies. Unless you have been involved with the (very large) Irish community in Australia, you cannot speak with any authority on the subject of Halloween in Australia. Please reinstate the above paragraph.

--Catholicjim 22:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

____________________________

No offence meant at all. As it happens, I have been involved with the Irish-Catholic community in Australia, which as you know, is very strong in Victoria, since many came with the gold rush and the potato famine. I also agree with you that the Irish contribution has been considerably downplayed. Although I'm sure I will be shot down in flames by someone, I personally remember the days when being of Irish/Catholic descent was held by some to be sufficient to exclude you from many management positions in Victorian public service.

My experience has been that St. Patrick's day is wildly celebrated here in Melbourne within the Irish community, and Halloween totally ignored by that same community. I'm really not trying to censor the Irish role, but I do think that in Australia Halloween has been introduced via the US (re-introduced if you like). The Celtic origin of Halloween is certainly not disputed by me, but I am unaware of a continuous tradition from Ireland to Australia, repressed or otherwise.

If you want to define Halloween as costumes and candy, as per the modern world, then sure, the season you're in doesn't make any difference. Still, you take a new NH implant to Australia, and they will most likely tell you that Easter, Christmas and Halloween all feel as if they are happening at the wrong time. Easter and Christmas have a strong religious tradition to carry them through, but Halloween does not. If Halloween is no longer about spooky darkness, then it is a pale reflection of the Celtic experience. The Irish diaspora would have felt the seasonal difference much more strongly than we do, and that is why I don't consider that Halloween would have "made it" to Australia, just as other European seasonal traditions didn't make the hemisphere transition (e.g. May Day), despite strong communities making their way here together.

It looks like Brisbane is more into Halloween than Melbourne. But that's just what I see, if your experience is different, please let's discuss it further.

By the way, have you considered putting that paragraph in a wikipedia page such as History_of_Australia_(1788-1850)? It's a pertinent part of Australia's history, especially if you add citations.

Trishm 12:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Catholicjim, I have removed that paragraph again, as someone else did before me. It simply does not belong here. I guess you are trying to say that:
1. Halloween was brought to Australia by the Irish in the early convict days
2. The Irish traditions were suppressed, one of which was Halloween.
3. _ Either_The Irish community has a continous history of (sometimes clandestine) Halloween celebration in Australia _or_ Halloween was reintroduced via the US and embraced by the Australian Irish community.

If that is what you want to say, then say it and cite it. However the paragraph as it stood did not say that, and is off topic, since it dealt only with history of the Irish community, and not the ramifications of that on Halloween celebrations in Australia. It does not actually talk about halloween, except to say that Australians think of Halloween as being an American thing. As an aside, this impression may not be completely mistaken, since Halloween as we know it today is very much as the US has transformed it, and has been altered significantly from its Celtic origins. If you consider that the current practice of Halloween in the US has been influenced by the Mexican Day of the Dead as well, the holiday is becoming truly American, albeit with Celtic roots. Trishm 11:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Trishm, let me tell you as a firsthand eyewitness that Halloween, as celebrated by the Irish community in Australia, has not come about because of any American influence. Do you hear me? Despite your apparent ignorant and stubborn prejudices:

1. Halloween has been celebrated every year by the (very large) Irish community in Australia since at least the early 1950s.

2. The contemporary style of Halloween celebrations, including Jack-O-Lanterns, bonfires, bobbing for apples and begging for treats have been carried out in Ireland since at least the 1840s (pre-Famine). Prior to that it was celebrated annually in various forms every for at least 2000 years.

2. Irish-Australians celebrated Halloween and continue to celebrate it because they celebrated it before they left Ireland for Australia.

3. As I have tried to explain in an historical context, the only reason that Halloween was not celebrated by Irish-Australians since the first European colonization was because of decades of British oppression of Irish culture and identity.

4. A number of older Irish-Australians have told me that Halloween celebrations were held at Irish bars and clubs and within Irish enclaves in Australia before television broadcast began in 1956.

5. The post-WWII boom in Irish immigration to Australia and the corresponding rise of the Irish-Australian identity is the most likely source of Halloween celebrations in contemporary Australia.

So much for your stubborn (and inaccurate) assertion about American influence.--Catholicjim 03:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Catholicjim,

Thankyou for the comments above.

I request that you do not remove the paragraph about Halloween occuring in Spring in the southern hemisphere. You replaced it with your own, without leaving a copy on the discussion page.

In a subsection about Australia and New Zealand, it is important to note that in the Southern hemisphere Halloween occurs in Spring, and therefore , we CANNOT BE celebrating apples and pumpkins and encroaching darkness. Not all Northern Hemisphere readers are aware of this. What objection do you have to this information?

Please refrain personal attacks, especially using terms such as "ignorant" and "stubborn" - I have at no time directed any such invectives at you. I have never claimed that Halloween is not of Celtic origin. However, I also see no point in denying American influence on almost all aspects of Australian culture post WWII.

Finally, your version of what the Irish-Australian community does certainly does not reconcile with mine, as we discussed earlier. Further, the Celtic Club (based in Melbourne) <www.celticclub.com.au> is one of the focal points for the Irish community (check the website, no halloween events listed for October/November). When asked whether Halloween is currently celebrated in the Irish community in Australia, the response from the contact at the club what that (i) although popular in Ireland, it was not known to be celebrated by the Irish community as a group in Australia (ii) it may be celebrated privately within some families (iii) the contact did not know of anyone who did celebrate it. Although it is just one person's opinion, I would expect that person to have some awareness.

I suggest that the celebration of Halloween in Australia among Irish-Australians is not as widespread as you may believe. It may be a regional thing. Once again, can you provide any citations?

Trishm 11:38, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Clearing up misconceptions about "Trick or Treat" as a custom

When I began to read the section on "Trick or Treat", I was quite pleased about the way in which this custom had been contextualised, but my pleasure was lost when I reached the section stating that in England, this custom is generally frowned upon as an American import. That may be true, but this is actually based on a popular but somewhat blinkered view of "Trick or Treat". In fact, some folklorists claim the custom derives from children begging for Soul Cake on All Soul's Day, which, being on November 2, is about the same time as Hallowe'en. ACEO 19:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

When I was young (in Scotland) we went "guising". Basically you don a disguise or fancy dress, go to a neighbours house and tell them a joke or sing a song. They then give you a little treat (sweets, apples, shortbread) and then you thank them and go on to the next house. It's similar to trick or treat but in typical Scottish fashion, no-one get anything for free - you have to at least try to entertain. Kids now a days say "trick or treat" and are much less likely to try to entertain you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.153.45.54 (talk) 09:28, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Religious attitudes

There has been a persistant attempt most recently to change the article's discussion of religious attitudes toward Halloween, and present a minority opinion as if it were a majority opinion. The fact that the great majority of Christians celebrate Halloween should be an indicator of where the majority opinion is. Halloween was not created by satanists, and the fact that it is "embraced" by satanists has no more meaning than the fact that Halloween is also embraced by Christians. As part of this attempt to misrepresent majority Christian opinion about Halloween, the quotation from the Vatican official (that Halloween is harmless fun for kids) has also been removed again and again. While making passing reference to the holiday being accepted by some Christians, the editor has changed the section to a mostly negative portrayal of the interaction between Christians and Halloween. Wikipedia is not the spot for propagandizing. An article should be a neutral reportage of the facts of the world as they are, in the proportion that they are. Halloween is a problem for a minority of Christians, and the perspective of the article should reflect that fact. — Walloon 04:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Christmas and Easter are also based on pagan holidays. Just thought I'd say it. This debate does get a lot of attention. We should say it's debated, but I agree that most Christians really don't care that much. Holidays in our culture have a way of getting incredibly secular--I know plenty of non-Christians and even atheists who celebrate Christmas, and Halloween is far more secular than that in our culture. Ungovernable Force^{Got something to say?} 06:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I had not realized that Passover was a "pagan holiday". Please read the Wikipedia articles on Easter.Dogface 14:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

It is generally acknowledged that Easter is a syncretized holiday that borrows from traditional pagan celebrations of the Spring Equinox, just like Christmas is celebrated at the time of the Winter Solstice. How else do you think Easter became associated with eggs and bunnies? Phyesalis 06:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

What is Easter named after? Christ? Not even remotely close... 195.153.45.54 09:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The discussion about religious attitudes is quite interesting and goes further than most people expect. Among the Christians I know the topic is very controversial. Halloween is for many Christians a mere secular tradition but many pastors have serious spiritual concerns about that. I did a quite extensive research about this topic and propose the following guidelines in order to deal with such a controversial topic: 1. The article should represent every opinion and the arguments which are brought forward for each opinion. In that way the reader can make up his mind based on the facts and the arguments presented. 2. The author should provide references. The link to the priest who said that Halloween is harmless fun for kids is leading to a quite obscure website I suggest that references to interviews and press articles should link to the original article itself. According to these standards I have drafted an article which summarizes the research I conducted about that topic. The article has the following structure: 1. Basic outline of the problem 2. Position which holds that Halloween does not raise spiritual concerns and arguments for this opinion 3. Position which holds that Halloween raises specific spiritual and arguments for this opinion 4. Ways Churches deal with this problem practically Please do not vandalize the article but rather make constructive suggestions. Any constructive comments and suggestions are welcome. Caloon2000 03:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The interview with the Vatican priest is from The Sunday Telegraph. The Telegraph is one of Britain's oldest daily newspapers, going back to 1855, with a daily circulation of over 900,000. Not an obscure source by any means. As for the proposed text, any discussion of the interaction between Christians and Halloween that spends nine-tenths of its text treating it as a troubling problem shows a definite bias from how the great majority of Christians treat Halloween — as a secular holiday with no real religious significance. A non-biased text will treat the subject in proportion to its status among all Christians, not fundamentalists. If Halloween is not troubling to 80-90% of Christians, then 80-90% of the text should be devoted to that opinion, not 10%. An article on meat that spent 90% of its text on how meat troubles vegetarians is similarly biased and unacceptable, no matter how many anti-meat sources it refers to in its footnotes. — Walloon 22:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The article about religious viewpoints as in its earlier version, most likely written by a non-Christian, painted a strongly biased picture of Christian attitudes towards Halloween labeling any criticism of Halloween as fundamentalist attitudes. This is simply not the case. I know from first hand experience that different Churches, Catholic, evangelical etc. indeed have serious concerns about Halloween which is not a Christian Holyday at all. These people are not “fundamentalists” but normal parishioners and normal pastors and priests. I don’t know whether the person who deleted the article and replaced it with his own version is a Christian or not but I do believe Christians can write most knowledgeable about Christian attitudes because otherwise you tell Christians what their attitudes are even if they disagree. The idea of this section is to help us understand why many Christian Churches have concerns about Halloween. The section starts with the pro-Arguments and then presents the contra-arguments. I believe the reader has a right to hear the arguments of both sides and then have his own opinion about that. If you everyone who is not following a certain opinion is labeled as fundamentalist that’s propaganda and Wikipedia is the wrong place for that. Please abstain from biased language. Use neutral words. The pastors and catholic priests I met and also those which I have cited with references are not fundamentalists but normal pastors in normal parishes. It is not true that 90 % of all Christians enthusiastically embrace Halloween because there are far too many graveyards which are vandalized during that season and if we look at the references which have been deleted we get a different image. Where does the person get the numbers from anyway? This is not the place for propaganda. The obscure website to which the former article about Fr. Amorth was linked was http://www.catholic-exorcism.org/ and it showed at the front page just a bunch of advertisements. Again the facts are mingled. It is not the Sunday Telegraph which is obscure (this is indeed a renowned newspaper) but the private website which I cited above. The wikipedia article linked to this private website and not to the Sunday Telegraph website. Therefore I suggested that all newspaper articles should be cited correctly, linking only to original sources and that’s what has been done afterwards. For these reasons I have included the link and quotation into the article now.

I suggest a fair and neutral way to present both viewpoints including the arguments which help understand why actually the leadership in many churches has concerns about Halloween. Every viewpoint should have the opportunity to present its arguments. That’s why I have included the pro-arguments into the draft and I expect that the text will not be vandalized again. Wikipedia is an open forum and everyone should have the fair chance to present his arguments. If the proponents of the Pro-Halloween position want to add arguments they are totally free to do so. In order to understand why many Christians have concerns we need to know the reasons and the arguments and this by nature takes more space than just saying, Halloween is ok. The version I released includes the original pro-arguments and is a fair way to give everyone the opportunity to speak. I believe this is a reasonable way to go forward. Constructive (!) critique and suggestions are always welcome.Caloon2000 03:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Having gone to Catholic schools all my life, I dont know why people are assuming (at least as the article stands) the 'most' or 'many' Catholics are upset by the holiday. I am the son in an Air Force family, so we move alot, and I went to many Catholic schools - and all of them had some kind of Halloween dress up trick or treat thing. Not a 'harvest festival' or whatever is said in the article. It only seems to be a few fringe Catholic groups who complain about it. As far as my own personal experience, the only ones I have heard complain about it are southern Baptists. user:Pzg Ratzinger

Caloon2000, I'm wondering about your sampling. While I don't doubt that many people have expressed concerns about this holiday, I think we'd need (a) a representative sample of Christians and (b) some sort of documentation that these concerns are as pervasive as you seem to believe they are. I was raised Catholic (am now Wiccan) and have many Christian friends and acquaintances. None of my friends, acquaintances, or family members have expressed concern anywhere near the level of concern you seem to feel is widespread. The 90% figure may be high, but I'd be unsurprised to find that over 90% of Christians don't find it the sort of source of concern you and your friends and acquaintances do.

By the way, you said "It is not true that 90 % of all Christians enthusiastically embrace Halloween because there are far too many graveyards which are vandalized during that season". I don't see how that remotely follows.

Septegram 22:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to weigh in on the topic, I was born in a primarily Catholic area of the United States (The Great Lakes Region/Northeast). Our community (Buffalo, New York) is primarily of Irish, Polish, German, Greek, and Italian ethnic ancestry. I also attended Catholic school for roughly a decade of my life, from the age of three until the age of twelve (two years of preschool, kindergarten, and then first through sixth grade). For ten years (three of them, after leaving Catholic school), I worked as an altar server and was rather familiar with the majority of the priests, deacons, and Eucharistic ministers. I proceeded to attend public junior and senior high school and am currently attending a state university forty minutes south of Buffalo. I currently consider myself agnostic, although I am technically a confirmed Roman Catholic Christian.

In all my years at Catholic elementary school, immersed in a community that was almost solely Catholic Christian, Roman Rite, with little-to-no contact with people of other faiths outside of my friend Vijay's Hindu father and my two Presbyterian uncles, I never once witnessed any of the seven priests, twenty-odd nuns, thirty-odd teachers, or faculty treat Halloween as anything more or less than, to quote the aforementioned Vatican priest, "harmless fun for kids". We were encouraged to wear costumes to school on the day of Halloween (or the day closest to it, if it fell on a weekend during a particular year), we were relieved of our regular classroom activities to play games and have parties. In fact, one year, I chose not to wear a costume, and many of my classmates were completely puzzled as to why I wasn't dressed for the occasion.

The norm in that particular school was to celebrate Halloween quite vigorously. The fact that the early Church used Lemuria, Sol Invictus, Saturnalia, and other Roman pagan holidays along with their parallel Solar holidays at the solstices, equinoxes, and counterpoints in the Celtic and Germanic areas of Europe as the basis for Christian holidays in order to convert pagans to Christianity has little bearing on how Halloween is viewed and treated in this particular corner of the country. If anything, Halloween celebration was discouraged at my PUBLIC high school simply because the teachers and faculty found 1500 hormonal teenagers in morbid costumes to be more difficult to handle. Additionally, I work with a particularly devout, conservative Christian Baptist, and even she celebrates Halloween—and takes great joy in it. At least in my area of the world, this Halloween-propagandizing seems greatly overblown. My particular experience leads me to agree with Walloon.

SumeragiNoOnmyouji 15:38, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Personal experiences may vary tremendously and I do know many Christians including catholic parish pastors who think that their parisheners should not participate in that and who have concerns about their folks getting involved with the occult. The catholic parish who got attacked by an occult group as it was mentioned in the article earlier was not a fringe catholic group but a totally normal parish [[1]]. Search the web for christian attitudes to Halloween and you will find tons of stuff. Precisely because it is so controversial the article should present as it has been the case before both sides so the reader can make up his mind. Caloon2000 21:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

There hs been a persistent attempt by user Kathryn NicDhàna to remove proposed content without discussing it and by using false comments: The comment Taking duplicates out of reading list. Alphabetizing. Again removing inappropriate extremist sources. Will replace Mike's changes momentarily. removed text in the of religious attitudes section and replaced it by partisan text. us ethe discsikon board. Document your changes. Caloon2000

Okay, I found this article on the RFC page and thought I would investigate and try to weigh in. The conversation as it stands is a bit difficult to wade through, but I believe I have the gist of it. I read the article as it stands now and found a couple of problem areas.

The first would be the statement "Most Christians ascribe no doctrinal significance to Halloween...". In the article, this position is unsourced. While the statement may reflect a common perception, it doesn't make it fact. Unless one can find an actual statistical survey of all people indentifying themselves as Christian holding this view, it is a perception(opinion), and not a fact. In addition, this statement is problematic: Most Christians hold the view that the tradition is far from being "satanic" in origin or practice and that it holds no threat to the spiritual lives of children: being taught about death and mortality, and the ways of the Celtic ancestors actually being a valuable life lesson and a part of many of their parishoners' heritage." The listed source at the end of this sentence only supports the "Celtic Heritage" end of the arguement, and it leads to the website of one Parish in Massachusetts. Again, the phrase "Most Christians" is unsupported, as is the statement about children being taught about death and mortality.

Second, it would appear that ascribing the view of Halloween as problematic specifically to fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Christians only is arbitrary and misleading. Even if the majority of Christians who have a problem with Halloween are fundamentalist, I sincerely doubt that accounts for all Christian people and groups who hold that view.

I tend to think (though not know) that the actual view of Halloween by Christians is a spectrum; some Christians support Halloween, Some Christians are against Halloween, and many Christians are neutral or ambilvalent about Halloween.

In any event, the above issues tend to charactize the Christian opposition to Halloween in a perjorative light. If we're going to bring up a minority viewpoint at all, it should be described in a neutral fashion. I would remove the statements about "Most Christians" supporting/celebrating Halloween from the article, and remove "fundamentalist" from the decription of Christians who have a problem with Halloween.

Finally, the title of this segment is "Religious Controversies". If "Religious Controversies" is what it truly is, then why is there ANY discussion of religious support of Halloween? If ALL religious viewpoints of Halloween are being discussed, then a more apt title would be "Religion and Halloween". I would support the name change, as it would lead to a more thorough and interesting article. For example, what do Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Muslims think of Halloween? I honestly don't know, and would be interested in finding out. I'm a Buddhist, and as far as I know, there is no Buddhist position on Halloween.

Hope this helps...NinzEliza 21:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

If my memory of the census is correct, approximately 83% of the US population identified as Christian. I doubt the $6.8 billion in Halloween goods is spent by 20% of the population. I agree that the term "fundamentalist" is problematic and should be removed. It would be more appropriate if the specific Christian groups/churches/dioceses were referenced by name. Generalizations regarding Christians/religious adherents are often stereotypical. Also, I agree with NinzEliza about wanting more info supporting pagan and/or Wiccan beliefs regarding the holiday. With so many cultural and religious traditions intersecting on one holiday, such beliefs are relevant and would enrich the article. I'm not sure that "Religious Controversies" is the best title. By the argument presented in the sub-section, this appears more of an American cultural dispute, not necessarily an issue held by various national and international churches in many countries. The fact that the Anglican church dismisses serious issues with the holiday is hardly a religious contrversy. I'm not saying remove it, it contextualizes the debate and factually states that a particular church is not concerned. But there needs to be more info done to instantiate specific controversies. Phyesalis 06:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

And "most christians" don't live in the USA. I really doubt whether 90% of chrisitians in the USA are against Halloween , never mind 90% worldwide. This is starting to sound like the whole "Harry Potter is corrupting kids" story in the Onion that went around the world and one fundamentalist group in Australia believed it all to be true... 195.153.45.54 09:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Halloween Vandalism

I didn't read the entire article but I am pretty sure there's absolutely nothing about the pranks done on Halloween, and in my town that's a big part of what happens on Halloween. Maybe add something about egging and toilet papering houses. Just a suggestion. New014 23:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Somebody has removed all the external links which explain Christian viewpoints. Is this the way to have discussions? Wikipedia is an open forum. Even if somene does not agree with a certain opoinion: be tolerant towards other people's opinions. The readers have a right to form their own opinions themselves. They are mature enough to be hear arguments of both sides and then form their own opinion. — Caloon2000 21:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia is not an "open forum". [[2]]Dogface 14:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

There aren't any "Christian viewpoints" on Halloween, per se. It's very name comes from "All Hallow's Eve" as the night before All Saints Day, a Catholic holiday. (There are Christian sects that don't approve of Halloween, just as there are ignoramusus that don't realize that Catholics are Christians).

Mensch 01:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Wikipedia is an open forum, this is one of the five pillars according to Wikipedia's official policy: "Wikipedia has a neutral point of view, which means we strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view; presenting each point of view accurately; providing context for any given point of view, so that readers understand whose view the point represents; and presenting no one point of view as "the truth" or "the best view". It means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics." [Reference: See this link to Wikipedia's policy:Five pillars] — Caloon2000 09:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is different from open forum. An open forum exercises no discretion. Even Wikipedia exercises discretion. In an open forum, there is no need for "verifiable, authoritative sources".Dogface 19:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Pranks: there should be a pranks section. one we do over here in england involves stealthly tieing a fishing line to a door knocker and hiding in the bushes, you pull the string and and it knocks. much fun. Deffinatly doing it this year =P — 82.33.140.177 15:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)