Talk:Habesha peoples/Archives/2018/July

Discussion needed on this Overview Section

[1] Many things to be discussed here. A couple of claims seem to bother me:

1. panethnicity, a neologism presented as "fact" based on what source?

2. the tagging of ethnic groups (that were either subjugates or periphery) as "abyssinian/habesha" based on "linguistic relations". This brings up the question via analogy, are the Spanish referred to as Italians simply because at one time they used or are linguistically related to Latin(Roman)? are the Tigre referred to as Abyssinians(Habeshas) simply because at one time they used or are linguistically related to Geez(Aksumites)? CrumpPlint (talk) 08:02, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Who do you believe the ethnic Abyssinians are? The native Christian highlanders? Soupforone (talk) 15:30, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

What makes "Abyssinian", an "ethnicity"? Quite a bit of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH on this article's talk has given a vague notion that "Abyssinian" is an "ethnicity".CrumpPlint (talk) 05:14, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Also, Diakonoff is obviously not the only linguist that calls the Ethiopian Semitic languages the Abyssinian languages. There's Edward Ullendorff as well [2]. Soupforone (talk) 16:31, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Two linguists versus the consensus accepted "Ethiosemitic" makes "Abyssinian languages", an outlier naming. My apologies if I didn't answer your question regarding "Who I believe to be Abyssinians?", it is just I can't accept nor am convinced that "Abyssinian" is an "ethnic group" rather than former Kingdom(monarchial political state) for which the dominating ethnic groups were Amhara and Tigreans(Tigray province). But provide me sources that claim "Abyssinian" is an ethnicity? The current article as it is written is heavily based on Amhara and Tigrean(Tigray province) histories. The other ethnic groups mentioned in this article based on WP:SYNTH WP:OR of (Abyssinian = Ethiosemitic linguistic argument is clearly false).CrumpPlint (talk) 04:10, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Just to add to this discussion see [3]Phantom Wars and Cyberwars: Abyssinian Fundamentalism and Catastrophe in Eritrea Dialectical Anthropology March 2001, Volume 26, Issue 1, pp 37–63 Sorenson, J. & Matsuoka, A. and [4] There is alot of doubt with regards to calling non_Amhara/Tigrean(Tigray) as Abyssinians when there is this much historical events that contradict this. It is equivalent to calling a Chinese person Japanese simply because they speak languages within the same linguistic family. Abyssinia was a geographical-polity which was based on and dominated by Amhara/Tigrayan ethnicities (all others are periphery or tributary but not Abyssinians).CrumpPlint (talk) 04:53, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Please do not WP:DRIVEBY tag, but rather tag the specific phrases so that they can then be fixed. That being said, the Abyssinian languages was a common historical name for the Ethiopian Semitic languages before the lingonym Ethiopian Semitic was coined; Diakonoff and Ullendorf obviously did not coin the lingonym [5]. That Abyssinian identity is centered on the Amhara and Tigray highlanders is correct, though. Also, per Template:Infobox ethnic group, please note that the religion parameter in the infobox is earmarked for actual religious affiliations, not irreligion/no religious affiliations. Soupforone (talk) 15:31, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Documenting this literature [6] The Earth and Its Inhabitants, South America, Volume 10 Page 152 - on. Very interesting descriptions of Abyssinians. Could be useful to add to this article. Thinking this article might need to focus more on the Abyssinians which were "citizens"? of Abyssinia Ethiopian Empire 1137 - 1940s (when the name changed from "Abyssinia" to "Ethiopia"?CrumpPlint (talk) 19:31, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Eliysée Reclus does indicate that the Abyssinian identity was centered on the Amhara and Tigray highlanders. Soupforone (talk) 03:28, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Based on the sources, wouldn't you agree that "Abyssinian" is an identity based on geography as well as "ancestral", "cultural", "linguistic"? Meaning, when you leave the provinces of Amhara and Tigray, you no longer deal with people who are Abyssinian. For example, if Adal(Afar/Ogaden), Galla(Oromo), Medri-Bahri(Eritrea) are mentioned distinctly from "Abyssinia", isn't it more correct to put Abyssinians and Abyssinia within its geographical identifier. And I don't mean to state that what some pre-19th century European/Arab/Foreign traveler/etc stated but by all the cumulative sources, can we not zero in and say that Abyssinians are geographically in Abyssinia (1270-1920) prior to Abyssina being renamed Ethiopia after new territorial additions(ogaden, eritrea)?CrumpPlint (talk) 23:45, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Abyssinia's governing dynasty was Abyssinian, but there was more diversity in the territory's general populace. Also, per Leo Africanus, the Adal sultanate encompassed the geographical area between the Bab el-Mandeb and Guardafui, so it wasn't just Afar/Ogaden. Medri Bahri also did not cover all of Eritrea, just most of it. Therefore, although geography can often be correlated here with ethnicity, the demarcation is not always exact. Soupforone (talk) 03:35, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Good point.CrumpPlint (talk) 05:56, 7 February 2017 (UTC)