Talk:HP Saturn

Saturn
	Photo of the exposed die of the HP 1LT8 Clarke SoC which contains an embedded Saturn microprocessor used in the HP 48SX
Designer	Hewlett Packard
Bits	Hybrid 64-bit GPR, 20-bit address bus, 4-bit datapath, 4-bit minimum word size
Introduced	1984
Version	"Level 2"
Design	CISC
Type	Combination of a Load–store architecture with some exceptions which fall into the Register memory architecture family
Encoding	Variable
Branching	Carry bit, "sticky" bit and other flag registers
Endianness	Little Endian
Page size	No MMU or paging available
Extensions	Only extensions for emulated ARM-based "virtual" CPUs
Open	Proprietary
Predecessor	Nut
Registers
	Nine 64-bit GPR and "scratch" registers, two "data pointer" registers and other miscellaneous registers
General-purpose	Four 64-bit GPRs
Floating point	No FPU registers
Vector	No vector registers

Saturn
Designer	Hewlett Packard
Bits	Hybrid 64-bit GPR, 20-bit address bus, 4-bit datapath
Introduced	1984
Version	"Level 3"
Design	CISC
Type	Combination of a Load–store architecture with some exceptions which fall into the Register memory architecture family
Encoding	Variable
Branching	Carry bit, "sticky" bit and other flag registers
Endianness	Little Endian
Page size	No MMU or paging available
Extensions	Only extensions for emulated ARM-based "virtual" CPUs
Open	Proprietary
Predecessor	Nut
Registers
	Nine 64-bit GPR and "scratch" registers, two "data pointer" registers and other miscellaneous registers
General-purpose	Four 64-bit GPRs
Floating point	No FPU registers
Vector	No vector registers

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New-Yorke

There are no readily available reliable sources for this claim which can be easily found on-line or in print. The claim seems to be possibly a leak from the HP48G/GX dev team and which amounts to hearsay. I've performed a very thorough search through on-line resources such as google and comp.sys.hp48 via groups.google.com and I've searched the literature, including the HP Journal, and I've found nothing that mentions "New-Yorke" or an 8MHz Yorke successor. I propose that until any reliable sources can be found that the "New-Yorke" CPU be commented out Jdbtwo (talk) 19:08, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've since added reliable references to the existence of the "New-Yorke" prototype, so, I've removed the "citation needed" template. Jdbtwo (talk) 20:18, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References to emulated Saturn processors need to be removed

This article seems to state that the so called "Apple series (Big Apple, Mid Apple, Little Apple)" of Saturn "processors" belong on this page. The problem is that they're *not* physical Saturn CPU's. If one wanted this article to be consistent, then one would also have to include references to every Saturn CPU emulator in existence. This article should only be concerned with physical Saturn processors Jdbtwo (talk) 16:28, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I do not at all agree with this. To me, Saturn emulators are perfectly on-topic in this article, and, yes, if someone would list emulators, I would support this.

The emulators listed in the table mentioned above are special anyway, as they are implemented in the firmware of newer HP calculators to emulate the former Saturn processor after they the physical chips were no longer manufactured by HP (NEC). I can't see how an editor interested in this topic would not want to learn about this. To me, this is essential to the article. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 01:15, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Input requested regarding HP Saturn register diagram

(Moved from my user talk page to this article talk page, where, I think, it is more useful:)

Hello :) I've updated the HP Saturn CPU register diagram on the HP Saturn CPU page. I initially tried to get the look that I wanted using wiki markup, but I gave up on that. I then created an SVG diagram with a PNG thumbnail. I had to delete your register diagram as I couldn't properly comment it out. If you have any suggestions on what you want included in the new diagram, then I'm all ears :) The SVG file is on the Wikimedia Commons so you can edit it yourself if you prefer :) Jdbtwo (talk) 15:32, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I miss the most important thing in your argumentation, the reason why you replaced the table by the SVG in the first place.

I don't see any advantage in having it replaced. The table was easily editable by any editor (including you), whereas the SVG is not (because few people are familiar with the SVG language, and because it is stored on Commons, not Wikipedia).

Further, the table was accessible for all readers, including visually impaired ones, while blind people can't make any sense of an image. Copy & paste of text excerpts isn't possible as well...

At least on my machine, the SVG is displayed with blurred lines. This looks ugly and makes it difficult to read the text. In contrast to this, the table comes over perfectly sharp and with nicely rendered fonts.

Your image does not provide any additional information, but rather is lacking some that was in the table.

If the table didn't provide what you were looking for, why didn't you add that to the table, rather than replace it by the SVG?

I would suggest to restore the table.

--Matthiaspaul (talk) 01:49, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthiaspaul:

I miss the most important thing in your argumentation, the reason why you replaced the table by the SVG in the first place
— User:Matthiaspaul

As I commented on your talk page, I tried to create a new diagram using wiki markup but I had to switch to SVG as wiki markup has limitations.

I haven't tried but if you didn't like the individual bit cells in the table, it should be possible to combine them into larger fields using colspan and rowspan. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any advantage in having it replaced. The table was easily editable by any editor (including you), whereas the SVG is not (because few people are familiar with the SVG language, and because it is stored on Commons, not Wikipedia
— User:Matthiaspaul

The advantages of having it replaced was that the old diagram had gone unfinished for years and now it's been updated to reflect the Saturn CPU register fields. Also, SVG is a widely used and known open format XML based format used for vectors graphics on the web. Many diagrams on Wikipedia are represented in SVG. The fact that it's on the Commons doesn't prevent anyone from modifying the file.

Well, you meanwhile added another row but otherwise the table wasn't unfinished.

SVG is understood only by a tiny fraction of editors who could edit a wikitable. SVG is fine for stuff that cannot be presented as a table, but for accessibility reasons we should try to avoid images (in any format) if tables can be used to transport the same information in a similar appearance.

Commons is a different project with different accounts and rules. F.e., my global account stopped working on Commons years ago for technical reasons. Of course, it makes sense to share images there, but if the info can be kept locally, it's even better. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Further, the table was accessible for all readers, including visually impaired ones, while blind people can't make any sense of an image. Copy & paste of text excerpts isn't possible as well...
— User:Matthiaspaul

The table is graphical by nature, there's nothing I can do about making it more "accessible" . I don't really know what you mean by "Copy & paste of text excerpts isn't possible as well..." as the diagram is graphical by nature.

A table is not graphical by nature, but "formatted text" with some line decoration. A screenreader has no problems to read a table, but can't make any sense of an image. You can mark and copy text in a table and paste it somewhere else. You can't do that with images. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

At least on my machine, the SVG is displayed with blurred lines. This looks ugly and makes it difficult to read the text. In contrast to this, the table comes over perfectly sharp and with nicely rendered fonts.
— User:Matthiaspaul

I fixed this with a new SVG image.

Yeah, this looks much better now. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your image does not provide any additional information, but rather is lacking some that was in the table.
— User:Matthiaspaul

The table you're referring to had not been updated for years and it wasn't clear on what it was supposed to represent as well as being incomplete.

Well, it wasn't updated because I considered it to be more or less complete. Your image still lacks a description of the various fields. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If the table didn't provide what you were looking for, why didn't you add that to the table, rather than replace it by the SVG? I would suggest to restore the table.
— User:Matthiaspaul

As I've said, I had to replace the table because what I wanted to represent wasn't possible with wiki markup but in SVG it's easy. Jdbtwo (talk) 16:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Did you try colspan?

(Rereading my original reply it might have sounded harsh, but wasn't meant this way at all. I just happen to have a rather different opinion on this...) --Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthiaspaul:

I haven't tried but if you didn't like the individual bit cells in the table, it should be possible to combine them into larger fields using colspan and rowspan.
— User:Matthiaspaul

I tried this but it didn't work. Jdbtwo (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you meanwhile added another row but otherwise the table wasn't unfinished.
— User:Matthiaspaul

"Wasn't unfinished"? I don't even know what the original table was supposed to represent, especially with all the question marks. The current SVG image contains a complete graphical depiction of the HP Saturn CPU's register fields and to which bits and nibbles they correspond. Jdbtwo (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SVG is understood only by a tiny fraction of editors who could edit a wikitable. SVG is fine for stuff that cannot be presented as a table, but for accessibility reasons we should try to avoid images (in any format) if tables can be used to transport the same information in a similar appearance.
— User:Matthiaspaul

I disagree. As I've said, I've tried wiki markup, but it's limited and SVG was the easiest solution. Jdbtwo (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Commons is a different project with different accounts and rules. F.e., my global account stopped working on Commons years ago for technical reasons. Of course, it makes sense to share images there, but if the info can be kept locally, it's even better.
— User:Matthiaspaul

When I uploaded the image files, the Wikipedia upload wizard asked me if I wanted to add the image to the commons, and so I did. I can also upload it locally. Jdbtwo (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A table is not graphical by nature, but "formatted text" with some line decoration. A screenreader has no problems to read a table, but can't make any sense of an image. You can mark and copy text in a table and paste it somewhere else. You can't do that with images.
— User:Matthiaspaul

It is graphical. To quote Dictionary.com : "An orderly arrangement of data, especially one in which the data are arranged in columns and rows in an essentially rectangular form." Because it has an inbuilt spacial relationship to the underlying data, ie., row / columns or x / y axes, then it is graphical. We're just arguing semantics here. Also, I don't see how a screenreader could have made any sense of the table as it was in its last state. Jdbtwo (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, this looks much better now.
— User:Matthiaspaul

Thank you :) Jdbtwo (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it wasn't updated because I considered it to be more or less complete. Your image still lacks a description of the various fields.
— User:Matthiaspaul

How was it complete? I didn't even know what it was supposed to represent. Also, the register fields in the image are described in the text below the table. I can add them to the image if you want to be pedantic. Jdbtwo (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Did you try colspan?
— User:Matthiaspaul

Yep -- didn't work. Jdbtwo (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(Rereading my original reply it might have sounded harsh, but wasn't meant this way at all. I just happen to have a rather different opinion on this...)
— User:Matthiaspaul

No harshness meant on my part either :) Just include emoticons as we're all probably Aspies :P Jdbtwo (talk) 19:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored the table but tried to emulate the layout of the image (with some exceptions). This should demonstrate the usage of colspan and rowspan. The table is easier to edit and is fully accessible to screenreaders, whereas the SVG is not. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 19:35, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the table is not centered and has problems with what I encountered when I tried to modify the original table using wiki markup. Specifically, the bits and nibbles rows have columns that change size. Also, I'd like to mention that the register fields should have a white background so as to not confuse the reader. The "Fields" box should be light grey, IMHO. Also, the "P = 0" and "P = 7" notes should not occupy what look like register fields but should just be text embedded on a column to the right of the rest of the table. Furthermore, the register fields should be uppercase in accordance with the HP Tools register format description. Also, there appears to be an extra "s" or sign nibble which shouldn't be there. Also, I don't know what the following entries in the table are supposed to mean :

Byte
Address
Number
Register

Jdbtwo (talk) 21:34, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthiaspaul: Sorry if it seems that I'm pestering you, but what exactly is the above image supposed to represent in the table / diagram? ie. What exactly are you referring to with "Byte", "Address", "Number" and "Register"? Jdbtwo (talk) 15:20, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, IIRC these were the names of these fields in a book (don't remember which one it was after all this time, though). --Matthiaspaul (talk) 19:31, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthiaspaul: Well, it seems to serve no purpose other than possibly confusing the reader as it is now. Can we get rid of it, at least temporarily until it's determined what the fields stand for? :) Jdbtwo (talk) 15:43, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know better/more established names to describe the various field variants? --Matthiaspaul (talk) 09:44, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthiaspaul: Well, I've been programming in Saturn assembly since around 1995 and the only "fields" that I know of are the ones that I described in the SVG image which you then converted into a wikitable. Perhaps if you could find the book that mentions "Byte", "Address", "Number" and "Register", we could then more properly represent the HP Saturn register fields. On another note, just a heads up that I've uploaded an SVG diagram of the HP Saturn registers. You're free to convert it into a wikitable as your wiki markup skills far surpass mine :) Jdbtwo (talk) 14:31, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthiaspaul: I can make the SVG image screen reader accessible with selectable text, but it might involve manually modifying the SVG XML with a text editor. Jdbtwo (talk) 14:57, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthiaspaul: I think I'm going to go ahead and temporarily remove the "Byte, Address, Number, Register" part of the wikitable as nothing like this is even mentioned in the HP-71B Hardware Internal Design Specification ( Which can be found on the HP Museum DVD-ROM / USB flash drive ). Jdbtwo (talk) 15:03, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthiaspaul: I propose that the following SVG diagram be used instead of the current Wikitable, as the Wikitable is an out-of-place eyesore :

There is an SVG image depicting the various Saturn registers above said Wikitable and IMO there should be another SVG file following it which has the same dimensions for eg. internal diagram blocks etc.

Right now the Wikitable looks out-of-place and ugly and the article would be better served if the Wikitable was replaced by another similar SVG image. Jdbtwo (talk) 20:06, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthiaspaul: ie. I think it should look something like this :

Saturn ISA registers

Saturn 64-bit GPR register format and fields

Jdbtwo (talk) 20:15, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

( Made some minor corrections to the above with regard to alt text, captions, centering and spacing / line-breaks... ) Jdbtwo (talk) 20:34, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox for Saturn ISA?

I'd like to add an Infobox for the Saturn ISA which would look something like this :

The problem is that the above Infobox makes the page look ugly with respect to the picture of the HP48SX die image. Any suggestions or ideas? Jdbtwo (talk) 20:18, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think I've fixed the problems with the above infobox. Would the following be OK? It includes the image in the article as part of the infobox :

Jdbtwo (talk) 20:24, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]