Talk:Gwendolyn Grant (activist)

improper use of {{cnf}}

@Wham2001: Thanks for identifying {{cnf}} with {{sfn|Nelson|2023}}. The comment with the "Nelson 2023" entry in references had the incorrect QID. I had incorrectly written:

• Carlos Nelson Sr., Wikidata Q126368883

I clicked on that QID (Q126368883). That took me to the Wikidata entry for Carlos Nelson. I then clicked on "What links here" (on the left), and found that the first item was, "Interview with Gwendolyn Grant President/CEO of the Urban League of Greater Kansas City (Q126368795)". This says I need to correct the QID in that References entry as follows:

• Carlos Nelson Sr. (1 March 2023). "Interview with Gwendolyn Grant President/CEO of the Urban League of Greater Kansas City". What's Up Kansas City. Wikidata Q126368795.

I similarly found and fixed the reference to "CNN Newsource", though I had to revert your deletions of my comments in the references to find it ;-)

FYI, I love Wikidata, though using Template:Cite Q without a comment is appallingly opaque. The following are some of the reasons I like Wikidata:

• For a document that will be used only once, using Template:Cite Q is more work. However, a document is referenced in more than one Wikipedia article, creating a Wikidata item for it is less work.
• For documents that are cited in multiple Wikipedia articles, if there is an error or a broken link, fixing it in Wikidata fixes it for all uses.
• Wikidata often provides more information about individuals than the other citation templates. If different people have the same name, Wikidata makes it easy to identify which "John Smith" wrote a given document. Other Wikimedians often add other information and perhaps other works written by a specific author.

Again, thanks for identifying errors in my data entry and proofreading. I hope my comments regarding Wikidata will help you at least tolerate its use, even if you may not be ready to use it myself.

FYI, I first tried to use Wikidata in 2013, but the documentation was appalling, and I didn't start using it effectively until after I attended Wikimania 2018 where I found someone to show me how. The documentation is still pretty bad, and it's still not easy for me to get answers to simple questions. I've logged over 36,000 total edits since 2010, most now in Wikidata, over 5,000 each in Wikipedia and Wikiversity and over 900 in Wikimedia Commons. I've also made a few additions to Wikiquote. Those help me find later a source for a quote I like ;-) You clearly know more than I do about some things, e.g., the use of {{sfn}}. I hope you find my comments interesting and useful. Best Wishes, DavidMCEddy (talk) 04:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the fix to the Nelson ref. The trouble is that your edit has broken all the sfns. You will see if you click one one of them that the short-form references do not correctly link to the long-form references, because {{cite q}} is generating malformed long-form references. You can also see that the article is in Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors if you look at the hidden references.

If you can find some way of getting {{cite q}} to produce non-broken long-form references then please do so, otherwise please revert to fix the reference errors that you've re-introduced. Best, Wham2001 (talk) 20:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

There are multiple options. You can stop using {{Cite Q}}, which is a blight, or change the contents of the sfn templates to match the CITEREF output from the full citations, or add |last= and |first= to the Cite Q citations. You can also use the Cite Q templates inside of <ref>...</ref> tags and forgo the sfn templates entirely. There are probably other options. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Many of the Cite Q citations in this article have invalid information or formatting that needs to be fixed; this is just one of the many problems with Cite Q. Authors like "CNN Newsource", "Park University", and "Associated Press" are wrong. The formatting of the title in the "Park University" and the "Project Wellness" citations should in in quotations, not italics. "KCUR-FM" and "KMIZ" and other media outlets are publishers, not works or authors. The citation whose entire contents are "KCPT (2020), Ruckus" appears to be invalid. The "Equal to the Challenge" citation has empty quotation marks. The "Steve Kraske; Reginald David; Elizabeth Ruiz" citation has a broken title. All of these errors would be a lot easier to fix with standard {{cite web}} and {{cite news}} citation templates. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Please excuse. I've never used {{cnf}} before.

I think I fixed all the pointers you suggested. I also left requests on Template talk:Cite Q#work with template:sfn? and Template talk:sfn#work with template:cite Q asking that someone change one of them so the two work better together by default.

That leaves one problem I've so far been unable to solve:

• CNN Newsource (24 February 2021). "Urban League of Greater Kansas City unveils social justice bus". KMIZ. Wikidata Q126365824. {{cite journal}}: |author= has generic name (help)

This complains, " {{cite journal}}: Empty citation (help): |author= has generic name (help)". I've so far been unable to understand this problem.

Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 22:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

CNN News Source is not a valid author name, unless there is a very funnily named person out there. The detail should be removed from wikidata. The correct field in this case would be |agency= but I don't know it that is supported by Wikidata / Cite Q. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

As to the SFN / Cite Q issue, Cite Q is not fully supported or even accepted by the community. I've raised the issue that Cite Q doesn't support SFN templates correctly multiple times on the associated talk page, I wouldn't expect a solution anytime soon. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

While the general discussion continues on the Cite Q talk page, there are current solutions to deal with the no target errors in the article.

As an example using Grant 2020 "Equal to the Challenge" there are two options:

First you can add |last=Grant and |date=2020 to the cite details. This won't change how the cite is displayed, as it just duplicates the information coming from wikidata, but it will solve the error message.[1]

The second option is to suppress the error message completely unacceptable using {{sfn whitelist}}. The template could be added to the top of the references section with the anchor details, so it would appear as
{{sfn whitelist |CITEREFGrant2020}}[2] -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The second option comes with a further issue though. At the moment the error is a false positive, the link works if you click "Grant 2020" you browser focus is taken to the correct cite. However if someone deletes the cite in the future, or changes the author/date details in Wikidata, then the error message is valid. If {{sfn whitelist}} is used it will continue to suppress the message in that second case, meaning no-one will know that there is a real issue that needs fixing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I tried:

• "Urban League of Greater Kansas City unveils social justice bus". KMIZ. 24 February 2021. Wikidata Q126365824. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |agency= ignored (help)

That didn't work. Wikidata does not have a parameter "agency", so I could not set that there.

I tried inserting

That didn't do anything.

I just tried:

• CNN Newsource (24 February 2021). "Urban League of Greater Kansas City unveils social justice bus". KMIZ. Wikidata Q126365824.

That did it. Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 11:29, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The article is still full of no target errors, unfortunately they are hidden by default so you might not be able to see them. Category:Harv and Sfn template errors#Displaying error messages show how to turn these error messages on, you'll need them if you are going to be using {{sfn}} or other short form references.

The easiest method is to copy:

importScript('User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js'); // Backlink: [[User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors.js]]

to here. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:44, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

What are the problems with these "errors"?

I checked all the uses of {{sfn}}: They linked to the appropriate items in the Reference section. ???

Might the hidden "no target errors" be erroneous?

Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 11:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

They are erroneous (false positives caused by Cite Q) but they are definitely there, having these error messages on will help in the future if you continue to use {{sfn}} (they will also help explain what everone else is talking about). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)