Talk:Gustaf Kossinna

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"Kosinna's Smile"

The article entirely distorts and misrepresents the role of modern genetic studies in relation to Kosinna. In fact, they have not validated but refuted him once and for all. Kosinna was a proponent of the North European hypothesis, which was opposed to what is now Gimbuta's Kurgan hypothesis, originally proposed by scholars such as Otto Schrader (philologist) and fiercely denied by Kosinna, Penka, Hirt, and other nationalist and racist pseudoscientists of the time when the two main proposals for the PIE homeland (Northern Europe vs. Pontic Steppes) were originally brought forth during the second half of the 19th century. The genetic studies of the 2010s confirm Schrader and Gimbuta's Kurgan hypothesis, further debunking the North European hypothesis held by Kosinna.

The only reason why modern commentators mess it all up is because in Europe, Kosinna's North European hypothesis was embraced by central and northern-European racists, nationalists, and especially by nazism, and with the eventual defeat of nazism and its ideology in 1945, not only the North European hypothesis, but the entire subject of Indo-European and proto-Indo-European studies beyond what may be called "coincidental linguistic similarities" became regarded as to be identical with debunked nazist and racist ideology, especially the assumption or hypothesis that such a thing as a PIE people had existed in the flesh as a distinguishable ethnic group with an original homeground from whence they had migrated to other regions. In other words, if you spoke of an actual, tangible PIE people and its homeland in Europe after 1945, you were considered a racist, nazi nutcase because people confused you for those frauds, racists, and nationalists such as Kosinna who had brought forth the pseudoscientific North European hypothesis. That's why all genetic evidence for PIE speakers, as by these recent 2010s studies, is often mistakenly taken for a late "re-appreciation" or "confirmation" of people who held the pseudoscientific North European hypothesis such as Kosinna.

On the other hand, in America the entire subject of (Proto-)Indo-European studies beyond mere linguistics was only popularized as late as by Gimbutas after 1945, who used to be despised as a supposed pseudoscientific radical feminist for decades by the scientific mainstream (especially outside purely linguistic research, that is among historians, archaeologists, geneticists, etc.) due to her related theses on Old Europe (archaeology) prior to PIE invasion/migration, and only recently has won more renown due to said recent genetic studies proving her Kurgan hypothesis. As said, these recent studies have only validated Schrader and Gimbutas's Kurgan hypothesis of a Pontic Steppes homeland, which was opposed to the pseudoscientific North European hypothesis held by Kosinna! It doesn't validate Kosinna simply because now people suddenly take the idea of an actual PIE people and homeland serious again. --2003:DA:CF4C:7500:352E:684:3B03:54E3 (talk) 18:58, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

I admit that I find this subject fascinating but am simultaneously horrified by the kind of politics this subject can inspire. This subject brings the Nazis out of the woodworks and had to be talked about carefully. And then you are critiscized at "politically correct", but I think honestly very justified when a certain subject has probably been shown to lead to wild, eager, runaway gross misinterpretation towards certain monstrous probably monstrous political ideologies, you are fully justified in being extremely hesitant in your research of it.

We are discussing human ancestry, and it is a natural human instinct to desire to glorify the ancestors. If some are to be critiscized for "disingenuously" treating a subject with hesitancy for hidden political motivations, then I think it's only fair to bring up that others will disingenuously run wildly away with it because they want to glorify their ancestors, to the point of forming some masturbatory, delusional supremacist ideology which justifies monstrous aggression. If we human beings are incapable of knowing this without becoming nazis, it's better off it not be known. I don't think this subject is quite at this level, but I do think it warrants caution in its discussion.

Once you've let the cat out of the bag you are easily lead to Kossinnas errors. For instance, the fallacy of teleology in evolution, the assumption that because some strain was at some point incredibly successful, it must have some inherent advantage and genetic superiority. When factors of success, especially in humans, can easily be artifacts of culture, situation, and circumstance. Where one people's advantages may succeed in one instance, another group may prove more for later on, while the earlier one stagnates. The end result of evolution is almost never a monoculture, there is not one perfect genetic line that must dominate above all others.

The desire to glorify the ancestors also leads to disingenuous factual errors eventually. Kossinna was burning with resent and indignation at the long recorded history of success by mediterranean civilization compared to Germanic, and motivated to libel it to glorify his own nation. He also incorrectly assumed that only his culture could have been the originator, because of his supremacist ideas, clearly is a culture in the past spread wildly and was super successful it must have been direct ancient ancestors of his own and his own the most pure example of that. Lending from the previous teleological fallacy. Then he obsessively and passionately denies the work others, like the Kurgan hypothesis, and it is inappropriate to point out his inner motivations. Because of his passion and work it can seem very convincing and triumph over the factual evidence, simply because others aren't as obsessed with the subject because they aren't driven by stick resentment and desire to flatter their own genetic line.

When evidence seemingly contradicts the theory, models are easily generated which conform to it and synergize yet more with horrifying notions. Like a simple rejection of the north European hypothesis, Northern Europeans are white, if they migrated and were the source ancestry of all the places that speak PIE, why aren't those places white. The Kossinna answer, well clearly we're the pure, undiluted examples of this superior lineage, the browner PIE speakers are the result of admixture with inferior subhuman resulting in their degeneration. Congrats, you have a basis for restricting race mixing and yet more reason to colonize and replace the others of the world.

You can find creepy echoes of this sort of thinking even in modern discussions. For instance start looking up discussions of comparisons of "superior", lighter skin, "Aryan" Northern Indians VS "inferior", darker, Dravidians. Or the often creepy discussions online about whether or not Iranians are white. People still put a lot of cache into how light skinned they are because they want associations with this apparently superior heritage.

The Kurgan hypothesis of course provides a simpler explanation. The Kurgans are in the middle of the migration area. All the groups surrounding them have similar levels of admixture with other groups. When they went west they stayed white because the Europeans they mixed with were also white. Because skin color is an adaptation to latitude, and Europeans are at the same latitude. When they went south, they mixed with progressively darker groups and because progressively darker. Actually the amount of pie heritage you have, has almost nothing to do with how successful your civilization was in the 19th century. The 19th century was just Europe's time.

However it is still strange, I open the door to this subject, broach with the Kurgan hypothesis, and yet people still seem to speak in a way that clearly indicates they are making assumptions consistent with the northern European theory. Like the association of Aryanness directly with skin shade, and assumption of inherent superiority of proto indo European heritage compared to other groups. The Kossinnist assumptions are so deeply embedded in culture.2601:140:8900:61D0:942C:DBAB:6D61:CA9A (talk) 19:09, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

What a lot of waffle! Adda'r Yw (talk) 17:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC)