Talk:Guoyue

Meaning of Guoyue

hinanzhen's talk about Guoyue from [[1]]

The English version of the article talks about revolutionary music, while Chinese version of the article talks about Traditional Chinese music. Search of 國樂 and 国乐 on Google.com and baidu.com both yields sites relating to traditional Chinese music rather than revolutionary music. Thus consider revise title to "Chinese revolutionary music" or such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.211.246.32 (talk) 21:29, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Is this Guoyue?

It's now fairly established guoyue in the Chinese world means traditional Chinese rather than what's been discussed in the article, and a search on google (guoyue music) indicates, the English use of this of this term isn't widely used to refer to patriotic music as indicated by this article. As there is a request to merge Guoyue with political music in China. So let's merge that and link the Chinese version to Chinese National Music. ( —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xingfenzen (talk • contribs) 18:19, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

In Chinese, "guoyue" can mean different things, including the modernized traditional music that this article discusses. Badagnani (talk) 18:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Zhinanzhen's talk from [User talk:Badagnani]

Hello! The former Guoyue article is actually not about traditional Chinese music, it's about national patriotic or political music. So I created National anthem (China). But National anthem of China is not National anthem of the People's Republic of China. It also includes National anthem of Qing Dynasty and Republic of China. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 02:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The meaning of Guoyue in Chinese is actually not patriotic or politic music. It's just traditional Chinese music. So the content of the article should be changed. If you want to keep the content, maybe you can creat two articles for the content: National Patriotic Music of China and National Political Music of China. Patriotic and political are also different. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 02:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Guoyue is the pinyin of 國樂. 國樂 means traditional Chinese music. There are many cases using Guo/國 to mean traditional Chinese, e.g., Guohua/國畫(National painting) means traditional Chinese painting, Guoxue/國學(National Studies) means traditional Chinese culture, knowledges and leanings. The have nothing to do with politics. They just mean culture. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 03:18, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

If you want to use the English sense, you should use the English term National instead of Chinese Pinyin Guo. You should use National Music instead of Guoyue. Guoyue is just the Pinyin of 國樂. National Music can be translated as 国家音乐, music about nation. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 03:22, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you mistaked the meaning of Guoyue/國樂. Please search internet for Guoyue/國樂. It has nothing to do with politics, it just means Chinese culture in music. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 03:26, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

If you know Chinese, please see:

• 中華民國國樂學會
• 国乐网

..... -Zhinanzhen (talk) 03:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

国乐會 ("National Music Clubs", I think the term Guoyuehui should be better tanslated as Traditional Chinese Music club) are all about Traditional Chinese Music. Please see:

• Guoyue Club of CUHK

-Zhinanzhen (talk) 03:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The term Guoyue is just the pinyin of 國樂. 國樂 means traditional Chinese music. It has nothing to do with politics. If you want to mean music about nation in politics, in Chinese maybe you can use 国家音乐/Guojia Yinyue/Guojia Music/Nation's music/Music about Nation, insdead of Guoyue/國樂, which is about the feelings, lives ... of common people. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 03:56, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, 國 here does not mean general meaning nation. It's specific, it just means China, Chinese Nation. The original use of the term Guoyue (國樂), is to differentiate Chinese music and foreign especially western music. So Guoyue (國樂) just means Chinese origin music, i.e., traditional Chinese music. That's the only meaning of Guoyue. Actually, many modern political songs including ROC and PRC is not Guoyue, instead they are western music. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 04:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Guoyue She (國樂社)/National Music Club, are all about traditional Chinese music, please see:

• 華岡國樂社
• 竹北國小國樂社
• 慈濟大學　國樂社
• 追月國樂社
• 歡迎來到松筠國樂社
• 笙罄國樂社
• 杭州知音国乐社
• 上海浦东洋泾国乐社

.... -Zhinanzhen (talk) 04:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Traditional Chinese music is called 國樂/Guoyue in R.O.C. . In mainland China after PRC established in 1949, it's offically called 民族音乐(for short, 民乐), means Chinese National Music)/National Music. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 04:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Chinese music is Guoyue/國樂. Modernized traditional Chinese music is also a kind of Guoyue/國樂. Guoyue/國樂 is a term used to distinguish Chinese music from foreign especially western music. Most modern Chinese patriotic or revolutionary songs are actually western music instead of Guoyue/國樂. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 04:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. I was not intentionally to be rude. I mean, even today in mainland China (PRC), traditional Chinese music is called Guoyue by many people, and it's called Guoyue in ROC era, and stilled called Guoyue in Taiwan. In PRC, China's National Music (中国民族音乐) means traditional Chinese music. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 05:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Reply to This is not the Chinese Wikipedia, it is the English Wikipedia, and we use the most commonly used names for things in the English language. The term guoyue is well understood in English, and if some people use this term to refer to all traditional Chinese music, that usage may merit a sentence or two in the article. There are quite a few names that Chinese people apply to traditional Chinese music. Badagnani (talk) 05:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC) -- Is guoyue a most commonly used name to mean political music in English? Actually Guoyue never used to mean political music or political music in China. And Guoyue has always been used to mean Chinese national music. It's about culture, not about politics. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 06:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Yes, guoyue is not primarily political, but there were political elements in this musical style's creation and promulgation over the decades. I think I've mentioned that, actually, at least three times this evening. I have provided sources to you, which you have apparently carefully failed to read or mention in any of your posts. If you had, you would have seen that guoyue was constructed in mainland China in the early 20th century as a modernized version of Chinese traditional music, which eventually took hold as the most prominently featured music in conservatories in China, as well as in the Chinese media (and eventually also took hold in Taiwan and Singapore). As I mentioned at least three times before, its creation and promulgation did have political elements in their motivations, even if every individual composition (many of them purely instrumental) were not specifically political in orientation. If you believe there were no political motivations behind the creation or official use of guoyue you do need to read more of the literature and learn more about this tradition, which is not more than 100 years old but which has achieved such prevalence throughout the Sinosphere. Badagnani (talk) 06:12, 22 March 2009 (UTC) -- Firstly, the political elements in this musical style's creation and promulgation over the decades is not Guoyue (traditional Chinese music). Most of the modern political musics including patriotic songs and revolutionary songs are western music(西方音乐), they generally use western style trumpet, sousaphone, piano, etc. The ideas are also strong influnced by western thought, mostly about struggle, fight. While Guoyue (Traditional Chinese music) are often soft, elegant, mainly peaceful or euphemistical, not that powerful harsh or roaring. Secondly, the term Guoyue/国乐 has been used for about 100 years and it means traditional Chinese musics. Thirdly, since Guoyue has been used to mean traditional Chinese musics traditional Chinese musics for long, if you want creat a term to mean western style music of modern style of music including patriotic songs and revolutionary songs in China, you should find another words, you should choose another word so as not to make confusion. Fourthly, does wikipedia allow editor to creat term personally here? -Zhinanzhen (talk) 06:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I suggest to move our talk about [Guoyue to talk: Guoyue -Zhinanzhen (talk) 06:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Badagnani's talk from [talk:Zhinanzhen]

I'm very familiar with the use of the term in both English and Chinese. This is the English Wikipedia, however, and the English sense of this term, in its most common usage, is very well understood. Badagnani (talk) 03:12, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

That's the (literal) Chinese meaning. The English sense of this term, in its most common usage, is very well understood. Badagnani (talk) 03:19, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You don't seem to have a clear idea of what guoyue is. Please see Beyond the May Fourth Paradigm by Kai-wing Chow[2] to see how this term has been used since the early 20th century. The term guoyue is well understood in English and, thus, we don't use an English translation of this term. There are other Wikipedia articles about traditional Chinese musical genres in general; this article is about the modernized traditional music that has prevailed in China (particularly in mainland Chinese media) since the 1930s. Badagnani (talk) 03:24, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I know very well what guoyue means, as since the early 20th century the term has been very clearly used by the musicians who created and promulgated this style. There is a difference between the literal Chinese usage and the specific usage to describe the very well known style that has predominated in the mainland Chinese media since the 1930s. There are certainly political overtones to the creation and promulgation of guoyue, if every piece is not overtly political in theme or lyric. I have read extensively about this subject and in fact suggested some reading for you in my last message to you. Badagnani (talk) 03:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't be translated that way, because the term "guoyue" as construed in the early 20th century is very well understood and does not need translation. For "traditional Chinese music" we use "traditional Chinese music" in English, and for guoyue (the modernized folk/traditional music that originated in the early 20th century) "guoyue" is used. Badagnani (talk) 03:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You're again presenting the literal Chinese reading of the term, which is equivalent to "traditional Chinese music." The translations you suggest are entirely inappropriate because they are invented English translations. However, I've presented a source for you illustrating the well understood meaning of the term "guoyue," as construed by the musicians who created this musical style in the early 20th century. Guoyue compositions are not always overtly political, but the creation of this style and its promulgation through official channels in the PRC (as well as, later, Taiwan and Singapore) certainly has political elements. Badagnani (talk) 03:59, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

“ So Guoyue (國樂) just means Chinese origin music, i.e., traditional Chinese music. That's the only meaning of Guoyue. ”

Very incorrect. That is the literal Chinese meaning, not the very well understood and widely used name for the musical style created in China in the early 20th century, and promoted via official channels in succeeding decades. Please examine the source I provided for you above. Guoyue has a very specific meaning, as construed by this music's creators under this name in the early 20th century, and as promulgated in the PRC in succeeding decades. Badagnani (talk) 04:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Right, you're giving links using the literal Chinese translation. However, the word guoyue, using its commonly used meaning as construed in the early 20th century, is very well understood, and is quite distinct from the general meaning "traditional Chinese music." I've provided a link explaining this tradition and its origin rather thoroughly. Please also keep in mind that there is a distinction between traditional Chinese music and "modernized traditional" Chinese music, which is equivalent to the music for Chinese instruments taught and promoted at Chinese conservatories since the 1930s, and often performed by large orchestras of Chinese instruments (i.e., "guoyue"). Badagnani (talk) 04:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, I know very well the various meanings of guoyue, and the meaning I have quoted, and presented sources for, is quite well understood, and widely used, since this music's creation in the early 20th century. Minzu yinyue is traditional Chinese music, guoyue is the modernized form of arranged/conservatory-style traditional Chinese music developed in mainland China in the early 20th century, often performed by large orchestras of Chinese instruments, many of them modernized, complete with bass instruments, etc., which was increasingly and heavily promoted in the PRC via state media and by the China Record Company following 1949, and later in Taiwan and Singapore. I think you already know all that, though you keep insisting on using the literal meaning of the term which is not used in English since we already have an English term for that: "traditional Chinese music." Badagnani (talk) 05:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You said:

“ traditional Chinese music is called Guoyue by many people. ”

This is not the Chinese Wikipedia, it is the English Wikipedia, and we use the most commonly used names for things in the English language. The term guoyue is well understood in English, and if some people use this term to refer to all traditional Chinese music, that usage may merit a sentence or two in the article. There are quite a few names that Chinese people apply to traditional Chinese music. Badagnani (talk) 05:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, guoyue is not primarily political, but there were political elements in this musical style's creation and promulgation over the decades. I think I've mentioned that, actually, at least three times this evening. I have provided sources to you, which you have apparently carefully failed to read or mention in any of your posts. If you had, you would have seen that guoyue was constructed in mainland China in the early 20th century as a modernized version of Chinese traditional music, which eventually took hold as the most prominently featured music in conservatories in China, as well as in the Chinese media (and eventually also took hold in Taiwan and Singapore). As I mentioned at least three times before, its creation and promulgation did have political elements in their motivations, even if every individual composition (many of them purely instrumental) were not specifically political in orientation. If you believe there were no political motivations behind the creation or official use of guoyue you do need to read more of the literature and learn more about this tradition, which is not more than 100 years old but which has achieved such prevalence throughout the Sinosphere. Badagnani (talk) 06:12, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Your usage of the term "guoyue" to mean "traditional Chinese music" is a literal, Chinese usage, which is idiosyncratic; conversely, the meaning of "guoyue" is well understood in English, and it refers to the style I mentioned just above. "Dance of the Yao People," for example, is a famous guoyue piece, while an ancient qupai such as Wannian Huan would not, although one could, in Taiwanese Mandarin, use the term broadly to refer to such a piece. However, in English we have a term that encompasses all traditional Chinese music: "traditional Chinese music," while guoyue refers to the well-understood and highly promulgated style that originated in the early 20th century, and eventually took hold as the most prominent style of Chinese music taught in mainland China, promoted via PRC official media, and later adopted in Taiwan and Singapore. Badagnani (talk) 06:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You are referring to explicitly political songs when I haven't mentioned such music at all. If you are thinking of yangbanxi or patriotic marches and songs, those are separate traditions, which do often use Western instruments or a combination of Western and Chinese instruments. Guoyue is often quite powerful in sound, featuring a large orchestra of traditional instruments up to 75 or more musicians, including large bass instruments (sometimes including some Western instruments such as da tiqin and diyin tiqin) and a conductor, modeled on Western music. If you refer to political songs, that's a completely different genre. It would be best if you actually read and considered the sources I provided you so you can learn more about the creation of guoyue in the early 20th century. This tradition is very well understood because of the prominent status it has been accorded by the PRC (and, later, Taiwan and Singapore), as the primary form of traditional music taught in the conservatories and promulgated through the nation's media channels . Badagnani (talk) 06:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You said:

“ Secondly, the term Guoyue/国乐 has been used for about 100 years and it means traditional Chinese musics. ”

Again, this is one usage, in Taiwanese Mandarin, that is a very broad Chinese usage of the term. However, please understand this is the English-language Wikipedia, and we use the very well understood style of guoyue as developed in the early 20th century and promulgated over subsequent decades. Thus, our article on guoyue refers to the specific style of modernized Chinese music played on traditional Chinese instruments (including very large orchestras of traditional instruments) referred to as guoyue at that time, and still referred to as guoyue. This style did certainly have political motivations behind its creation and promulgation, even if individual compositions are not expressly political. In this case, I'm not certain if your English is fluent enough to get the distinction I am making here; I am referring to political subtexts in the music's creation and use, not stating that these are "political songs," which are entirely different genres. If referring broadly to traditional Chinese music, we already have an English-language term for that: "traditional Chinese music." Badagnani (talk) 06:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You said:

“ Thirdly, since Guoyue has been used to mean traditional Chinese musics traditional Chinese musics for long, if you want creat a term to mean western style music of modern style of music including patriotic songs and revolutionary songs in China, you should find another words, you should choose another word so as not to make confusion. ”

Again, this shows a lack of familiarity with our project's guidelines; as this is the English-language Wikipedia we use the most commonly used English terms for article titles. In this case, you are using a Chinese term, which may be used broadly to mean "traditional music" or "national music"; however, the term guoyue is well understood in English and refers primarily to the genre of modernized Chinese music created in mainland China in the early 20th century and promulgated over subsequent decades. We don't need another term because the term "guoyue" is well understood in English. As I have stated at least once or twice already, a sentence summarizing other usages of the term "guoyue" would be fine to add. As I have mentioend at least five or six times already, "guoyue" does not refer to Western music, yangbanxi, or patriotic music, as those are separate genres. Badagnani (talk) 06:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Even better is if you would actually read the sources[3][4][5] about guoyue, its creation and promulgation before commenting further. Badagnani (talk) 06:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite what I have said. The term Guoyue has always been used to mean traditional Chinese music. We never take March of the Volunteers, The East Is Red or such music as Guoyue.

1. Firstly, the political elements in this musical style's creation and promulgation over the decades is not Guoyue (traditional Chinese music). Most of the modern political musics including patriotic songs and revolutionary songs are western music(西方音乐), they generally use western style trumpet, sousaphone, piano, etc. The ideas are also strongly influnced by western thought, mostly about struggle, fight. While Guoyue (Traditional Chinese music) are often soft, elegant, mainly peaceful or euphemistical, not that powerful harsh or roaring.
2. Secondly, the term Guoyue/国乐 has been used for about 100 years and it means traditional Chinese musics.
3. Thirdly, does wikipedia allow an editor to creat pharses here personally?
4. Fourthly, since Guoyue has been used to mean traditional Chinese musics for long, if you want to creat a pharse to mean modern style music mainly including patriotic songs and revolutionary songs in China, you should find another word, you should choose another word so as not to make confusion.

-Zhinanzhen (talk) 07:10, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I think your English is perhaps not good enough, because I've already explained, about eight or nine times, that guoyue is not political music; those are encompassed in separate genres. However, guoyue has certainly had a political subtext in its creation and promulgation over the decades; to imply that it has not shows a fundamental lack of familiarity with Chinese musical history. As I've mentioned at least four times, I am not referring at all to patriotic marches and songs, which often use Western instruments. Further, as I have stated at least four times, guoyue uses Chinese instruments (though the very large orchestras used for guoyue may use some Western instruments such as datiqin and diyintiqin). Finally, we don't need another English term; the term guoyue is well understood in English. As mentioned at least seven times above, the use of "guoyue" to mean "traditional Chinese music" is an idiosyncratic usage from Taiwanese Mandarin that might be appropriate for the Chinese Wikipedia, but in English we have a term for this: "traditional Chinese music." As mentioned at least three times, it would be appropriate to mention alternative uses, in the Chinese language, of the term "guoyue" in the Guoyue article; that would be fine. It's not productive to bring up the same points eight or nine times, which I have already mooted with my careful responses to you. My only explanation can be that your English is just not good enough to catch the meaning of my responses at the English-language Wikipedia. The best is if you actually carefully read and consider the sources before commenting further. Badagnani (talk) 07:14, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

My English is really very bad. But this has nothing to do with whether English is bad or not. We are now talking about Guoyue. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 07:16, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

It is very important, because you're talking past every comment I make, and making me reiterate each of them up to nine or more times. Your usage is a Chinese usage, while the term is well understood in English, referring to the style created in the early 20th century and promulgated through conservatories and official media since then. Badagnani (talk) 07:18, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

What's the origin of Guoyue? Surely Guoyue is the pinyin of 國樂. What does 國樂 mean? It means Chinese traditional music, in Taiwan called Guoyue (國樂, literally transaltion: National Music); in mainland China officially called 中国民族音乐(literally transaltion: Chinese National Music, for short 民族音乐、民乐) and many people in mainland still call it Guoyue (國樂) instead of Minyue (民樂) -Zhinanzhen (talk) 07:22, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

As mentioned at least six times above, that is a broad, literal Chinese-language usage, used in Taiwanese Mandarin (and, thus, appropriate for the Chinese-language Wikipedia), yet this is the English-language Wikipedia. The various usages are fine to mention, but the term "guoyue" is quite well understood in the English language. I will ask again, for the fifth time, that you actually thorougly read the sources provided before commenting further. Kindly indent your comments, thank you. Badagnani (talk) 07:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

How guoyue is quite well understood in the English language? If you say National music is quite well understood in the English language, it may be half OK. Guoyue is a specific term, which equals 國樂. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 07:30, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Guoyue is well understood in English by those who study and practice Chinese music. "National music" is not used in English translation because it is unnecessary; the term "guoyue" (as described thoroughly above ten or eleven times) is well understood. Kindly indent your comments, thank you. Badagnani (talk) 07:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You said:

“ Guoyue is a specific term, which equals 國樂. ”

As mentioned above, at least twelve times, this is a broad, literal Chinese-language usage, used in Taiwanese Mandarin. However, this is the English-language Wikipedia, and the term guoyue is well understood to refer to the style of modernized music for Chinese instruments created in the early 20th century and promulgated over subsequent decades. Badagnani (talk) 07:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Guoyue, like Guoyu, is a Chinese origin phrase, it has specific meaning. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 09:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I think those who study and practice Chinese music well understand Guoyue/國樂 means traditonal Chinese music. I have provide a number of links above. As to national music in English, it may have many kinds of meanings. Guoyue/國樂 sometimes is translated as Chinese national music in English, and in China or among Chinese the word China or Chinese is often omitted, directly translating Guoyue/國樂 as National music. e.g.:

• 中国国乐大师 NATIONAL MUSIC MASTERS(CD)
• The Shanghai Conservatory of Music Department of National Music

Here is the fact: Today in PRC, Guoyue/國樂 which means traditional Chinese music is officially called 中国民族音乐(literally, Chinese National Music), while before 1949 it's called Guoyue/國樂 in mainland China. Still today in Taiwan, it (traditional Chinese music) is called Guoyue/國樂 (literally, National Music), and in mainland many people also call it Guoyue/國樂. Nobody call such patriotic or revolutionary musics as "March of the Volunteers" or "The East Is Red" Guoyue/國樂. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 08:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

As mentioned thirteen times above, the term "guoyue" means "traditional Chinese music" in the Chinese language. However, this is the English Wikipedia. In English, the term "guoyue" is well understood, and refers to the style of modernized Chinese music for Chinese instruments (including very large orchestras of Chinese instruments) begun in the early 1900s and promulgated through official channels such as conservatories and state media in the subsequent decades. You are correct in stating that overtly political marches and political songs are not considered part of guoyue, as I have mentioned at least eight times above. As you have been asked at least nine times above, it would be very helpful if you would actually carefully and thoroughly read the English-language sources about guoyue that I have provided above before commenting further. Please indent your comments, thanks. Badagnani (talk) 15:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I know your intention. You want to use a term to discribe that kind of modern style music mainly related with the nation of China (some may not be political, although mostly are patriotic. But actually revolutionary is not always patriotic, so I call the two political), and you think Guoyue is a proper term since its literally translation in English is National Music, and you say Guoyue in English and Chinese (國樂) can have different meanings. Right? You say the term "guoyue" is well understood in English, I have doubts about it. "Guoyue" is a Chinese origin word and if we want make it understood in English we have to translate it from Chinese to English. "Guoyue" (國樂) can be translated as "national music" in English. But "national music" has at least two meanings in Chinese, one is music of state (nation), one is music of people (nationality), for the former, it's called 國樂 (Guoyue), for the latter, it's called 民族音樂 (Minzu yinyue) for short 民樂 (Minyue), the former was used in Taiwan and still be used by many people in mainland China , the latter is used in mainland China, and both of them mean the same: traditional Chinese music. Actually you are creating a new term of Guoyue and the term will confuse with what Guoyue has been used to mean. If you consider the article is necessary, I suggest you to use other names such as Modern national music of China or Political music in modern China. -Zhinanzhen (talk) 06:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Please indent your comments. I don't "want" to do anything other than to use the term guoyue as it is commonly understood in English (as this is the English-language Wikipedia), to refer to the genre of modernized music for Chinese instruments begun in the early 20th century and promulgated through Chinese media and conservatories since then. As mentioned above (eleven times), you are presenting various usages of the term guoyue in Chinese, and the term has been used in various ways; as I mentioned above (five times), it would be prudent to add a sentence or two about these other usages of the word "guoyue" in the Guoyue article. It would be best if you actually carefully read the sources I provided before commenting further (seventh request). Badagnani (talk) 15:02, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The article Historical Chinese anthems‎ and National anthem (China)‎ was merged since they were identical. It seemed trivial to do. Benjwong (talk) 04:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Political musics in China is also a completely unrealistic title. Benjwong (talk) 04:54, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal

This merge proposal is absolutely wrong because guoyue is not an overtly political music (although its creation and promulgation have undoubtedly had political and propagandistic aspects). In fact, guoyue is primarily instrumental. Overtly political music in China comprises other genres than guoyue. Badagnani (talk) 15:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

After reading the section above it is still very unclear what the move being made is? Benjwong (talk) 04:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Someone wanted to move the content of guoyue (about the tradition of "modernized" Chinese instrumental music, often played by large Western-style orchestras of Chinese instruments, which began in the early 20th century and was named guoyue by its creators, and which has been the primary form of Chinese music taught, performed, and featured in official PRC media since 1949, to "political music of China," which is entirely inappropriate, as political marches, political songs, yangbanxi, etc. are different genres than guoyue. Badagnani (talk) 15:00, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I also don't understand why we have an article Political music in China? Just because it is considered political now does not mean it was political back then. So I agree with you on that. Benjwong (talk) 06:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Very many of the guoyue compositions of the golden age (1950s) were entitled things like "Bumper Harvest in the North" or whatever, but would be a concerto for liuqin and traditional Chinese orchestra. However, I wouldn't consider those to be political in the manner of more overt patriotic songs or yangbanxi, but more instrumental music serving a propagandistic (revolutionary) purpose. Badagnani (talk) 06:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

What you have in mind to fix these pages. I think I agree with you. Benjwong (talk) 04:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Guoyue should describe what the Google Books sources talk about (the modernized traditional music, often featuring large orchestras of traditional or modernized-traditional instruments and using some Western harmony, which began in the early 20th century in China, going along with the May Fourth and nationalist movements, and was later adopted and promulgated as the music of choice of the PRC from 1949 on. Move information on patriotic Chinese music that does not fit this definition or use traditional Chinese instruments out of the Guoyue article to the political music article. The thing is, there has been political music in China since Shihuangdi and going through the Guomindang and PRC. Probably the political music article should be renamed "Revolutionary music in China." Badagnani (talk) 04:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Splitting off revolutionary/patriotic songs content

This article is a mess. It needs the content dealing with revolutionary/patriotic songs moved to its own article. 92.40.148.222 (talk) 05:39, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

This article is a mess in more ways than one. Why does it seem like all the articles on Chinese music have bits added on that are without any citations, full of opinion, and by someone who doesn't know a thing about modern China. Nevermind silly things like "there are basically two spectrums". "The light end is..." How does that make sense? --67.174.34.210 (talk) 02:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

This indeed a mess, it seems some of the authors have confused Revolutionary Music (革命音乐）, Patriotic Music （爱国音乐） and National Music (民族音乐） as it is used in China. It could be there be some misunderstanding before China opened up and Gueyue was somehow misused in English and then somehow got stuck.Xingfenzhen (talk) 06:20, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

It's done. Hzh (talk) 14:04, 7 November 2013 (UTC)