Talk:Guihomar IV, Viscount of Léon

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Lea Chaillou and other unreliable sources

I would appreciate the if editors would refrain from using unreliable sources by Foundation of Medieval Genealogy, especially when refuted by reliable source(s): 1)Alienor(Eleanor) is stated marrying Eudes de Porhoet(Morvan, table 24)[1] 2)Someone changed Ennoguen to marrying Eudes de Porhoet using the Morvan source when Morvan clearly shows Ennoguen marrying Andre II de Vitre![2]

I would think this is a perfect example of why Foundation of Medieval Genealogy should not be used as a source! --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:25, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure Foundations: The Journal of the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy is not RS. I can find a few citations to it in RS, but I cannot find a definite statement that they are peer-reviewed only that articles are reviewed by experts. Some academic libraries do carry Foundations.

I'm more interested in the facts, though. The name Eleanor throws up a red flag for me. How does somebody completely unrelated to the first known Eleanor in history, who was only one generation or so older, get the name Eleanor? According to Patrick Kernévez and André-Yves Bourges, "Généalogie des vicomtes de Léon (XIe, XIIe et XIIIe siècles)", Bulletin de la Société archéologique du Finistère 136 (2008): 157–188, there was an Eleanor and she married Rivoallon of Rosmadec, the wife of the viscount of Porhoët is anonymous and Gwen/Ewen married Andrew of Vitré. This partially substantiates Chaillou. Interestingly, Kernévez has co-published with Morvan concerning the later viscounts of Léon.

Sturmvogel 66 added Chaillou, so perhaps he can say what she says. Maybe she cites primary sources, which nothing I've consulted does (other than the Medieval Lands Project, of course!). Srnec (talk) 21:56, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The only Lea Chaillou I found is an HR administrative assistant at Hennessy, not an academic historian. Also, Ennoguen is not listed by Morvan as marrying Eudes de Porhoet. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:03, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Srnec can you read The House of Léon: Genealogy and Origins? I can not. It appears to be behind a paywall. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:24, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can send the article to anyone who contacts me. But here's an extract that you might find relevant to this discussion:

Guyomar IV and Nobile had six or seven children (Fig 2): Guyomar V succeeded his father as viscount of Léon; Hervé, who may have been Guyomar V’s twin brother,60 became the first lord of Léon; Adam died at the siege of Acre in 1190 or 1191;61 Éléonore married Riwallon, lord of Rosmadec; Enoguen (or Guen) married André II de Vitré, whose first marriage to Mathilde de Vendôme had been annulled in 1189/90.62 It is also probable that Sybille de Léon (†aft.1166), who brought the estate of Pléhédel to Geoffroy de Boisgelin upon their marriage in 1166, was Guyomar’s daughter.63 A fourth daughter, who married Eudes II de Porhoët and was later called Jeanne64 or Éléonore65 in French genealogies, is also mentioned by several authors. Robert of Torigni records the marriage in August 1167 of Eudes and a daughter of Guyomar, son of Hervé de Léon (“Guihunmarus, filius Hervei vicecomitis Leonensis, cujus filiam comes Eudo habebat in cunjugium”)66 but does not cite her name. The names given by later authors to Eudes’s second wife seem to indicate that she was either Éléonore or Enoguen (‘Guen’), since Jeanne may have been an attempt to Gallicise Guen. Since Eudes still lived in 1180,67 either Éléonore or Enoguen could have been his wife. However, we know that Éléonore was already married to Riwallon de Rosmadec in 1191,68 when he rebuilt the Abbaye de Landévennec with her consent, and Enoguen could not have married André II de Vitré before 1190. Since Éléonore and Riwallon appear to have been married earlier than Enoguen and André, it is possible that Eudes’s wife was Enoguen.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:48, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, who is Lea Chaillou? Why should she be used to refute Frederic Morvan? --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:03, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

While she has a masters degree, she's not an academic. This is one where you're going to need to consult the sources used by both.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:38, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Sturmvogel 66: Could you email me the paper? Thanks.
It looks to me like there is less of a disagreement between our two main sources than appeared. Morvan does not mention Riwallon, but that might just be for the sake of his table. The question is whether the wife of Eudes was one of the known daughters and if so who. Kernévez and Bourges punt, Morvan goes with Eleanor and Chaillou appears to lean towards Enoguen. Srnec (talk) 00:40, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I only care about the reliability of the source.

The word "source" when citing sources on Wikipedia has three related meanings:
The piece of work itself (the article, book)
The creator of the work (the writer, journalist)
The publisher of the work (for example, Random House or Cambridge University Press)
Any of the three can affect reliability. Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:54, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Understood we rely on published reviews to assess book and author reliability, but in hyper-specialized field like genealogy/prosopography both are hard to come by as there are very few journals reviewing either. And the field is rife with dedicated "amateurs" delving deep into the sources in the original languages and outright frauds wanting more "scalps" in their ahentafels to help further confuse our ability to assess R/S. In this case, lacking access to Morvan, I'd add a note saying that Chaillon leans one way and that Morvan says another.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:16, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for this very late answer. I read both articles by Morvan and Chaillou and though I agree Chaillou is no academic, the article The House of Léon: Genealogy and Origins does point out to an error made by Morvan about the Poissys:

"While living in France, Hervé married Mahaut de Poissy, suo jure Lady of Noyon–sur–Andelle. Her origins and marriage are attested by a document dated 1281 (“In presencia nostra constituta nobilis mulier Matildis de Poissiaco, domina de Novion et de Leonia, uxor nobilis viri domini Hervei de Leonia, militis”)[130] and the fact that her son Hervé V was later called “Hervé fieuz Mahaut”[131] This marriage allowed Hervé IV to enlarge his own French estates significantly.
Mahaut’s parentage is somewhat unclear, mainly because there were two different branches in the Poissy family: the first branch held Maisons–sur–Seine,[132] and the second branch acquired Hacqueville, Acquigny, Radepont, Noyon–sur–Andelle and Malvoisine, among other places. Mahaut de Poissy belonged to the second branch. According to Morvan & Kernévez, Mahaut was the daughter of Guillaume de Poissy (†1270/72) and his wife Isabelle de Marly,[133] which is impossible: Isabelle de Marly was Guillaume’s daughter–in–law, having married his son Robert.[134] The confusion around Mahaut de Poissy’s parentage arose from the fact that French historians have sometimes confused different members of the family named Robert and Guillaume."
And the notes [130] to [134]:
[130] Louis–Claude Douët d'Arcq, Collection des sceaux. Première Partie (1863), vol. 1, 638.
[131] Morice, op. cit. (1742–1746), vol. 2, col. 850.
[132] Daniel Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004), 209, 222 and 511 (table 24).
[133] Morvan & Kernévez, op. cit. (2008).
[134] Edgar Boutaric, Actes du Parlement de Paris. Première série. De l’an 1254 à 1328 (1863), vol. 1, 57.
Not saying Chaillou's article is better than Morvan's — Morvan's more qualified since he's an academic historian — but both use primary sources and both probably made mistakes. Chaillou's first article also mentions she has a master's degree as @Sturmvogel 66: says but it doesn't correspond to the person in the link given by @Kansas Bear:--Aziliz Breizh (talk) 13:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Guihomar's issue

I edited the list of Guihomar's children with data used in the above talk.--Aziliz Breizh (talk) 11:36, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]