Talk:Grodno

Governance timeline

1199–1219	To Halych-Volhynia
1219–1252	To Grand Duchy of Lithuania
1252–1254	To Halych-Volhynia
1254–1795	To Grand Duchy of Lithuania (which was a constituent part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from 1569)
1795–1812	To Russian Empire
1812, July - December	French occupation
1812–1915	To Russian Empire
1915–1918	German occupation
1918	To Belarusian National Republic
1918–1920	To Lithuania
1920–1939	To Poland
1939–1941	To Soviet Union
1941–1944	Nazi occupation
1944–1991	To Soviet Union
1991—	To Belarus

Belarusian language was forbidden

What do understand as "forbidden"? When? Lack of b. schools isn't the same, there are no b. schools in the USA. Is the language forbidden there? Xx236 14:45, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Of course not. It's one of the two official languages of the country.

This information about "firbidden" language is invalid, and I will remove (or change) this sentence in future unless anyone points me to some source document confirming that (which won't be Belarusian's propaganda but reliable historical source). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.3.73.98 (talk) 09:48, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Grodno or Hrodna--Greg.loutsenko 23:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC) in the text?

There are rules (see Danzig), not applied here. Xx236 14:15, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Should we move Hrodna to Grodno? Hrodna isn't as awkward-looking as "Mahilyow" and seems more established, but Grodno gets ten times more hits on Google (1.6 million to 100+ thousand) and is used for the government's website. Kazak 04:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

While German name is indeed not useful, Lithuanian one is quite useful, as the city was considered to be part of Lithuania until 1939 (Soviets recognised it to Lithuania in 1920 by the Soviet-Lithuanian peace treaty), was on the border of Lithuanian and Belarussian inhabitted territories in the times of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (and as back then there was no official information about exact ethnicities, it is unclear how many Lithuanians and how many Belarussians were in Hrodna at the time), the name "Gardinas" derives from word "Gardas" and is an original name, it as well differs enough from "Hrodna" for it to be hard for someone who does not know it is the same city to understand that; Lithuanian names are mentioned for northwest Belarus cities, while Belarusian names are mentioned for eastern Lithuanian cities (such as Vilnius). Regehani tara bahera! Dara Fryram hani tahreha! 09:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

i want to say, WTF. why isnt this article titles Grodna? i russian word's first letter is G, and it sounds like english G......this article need to be re titled. i want to this through this, what do you think?

--Greg.loutsenko 23:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Grodno is Russian, but the city is in Belarus, so the Belarusian name Hrodna should be used. Hrodna is found on all modern maps in English and German speaking countries. Best regards, Juhan, German Wikipedia

I think the historical names (Polish, Russian, Lithuanian) should be stated, becaused they were used at some time (while city was in Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and Russian empire, interwar republic of Lithuania (by 1920 Moscow treaty), interwar republic of Poland (after polish-soviet war). They are useful when talking about cities history. Furthermore, belarussianising lithuanian names (Vytautas to Vitaut) is a nonsense. We don't lithuanise names of rulers of Kievan Rus (state which was ruled by ancestors of belarussians), the Skaryna's name isn't lithuanised too (even if he lived mos't of his life in Lithuania). Talking about belarussianising lithuanian cities names (Vilnius to Wilnia) is other thing. You can list belarussian name to it (We lived in one state for many years

and we still have large belarussian minority) even if there are almost none english articles with this name, but we have a right to write lithuanian names to belarussian towns too (mostly to ones which influenced Lithuania most and has lithuanian minority). Continue discussion or i will move the Lithuanian, Polish and Yiddish names back even without discussion. Karolis-lt 17:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I dissagree. In principle it sounds good, but in reality it opens a can of worms allowing ultra-nationalist POV pushers to run rampant on Wikipedia. If you want to know what a geographical entity is called in a foreign language there is usually an article, that can be accessed. Links and redirects are also helpful, and can be employed to acquire information too. It just gets too messy. Taken to a logical extreme, the Polish name for New York or Chicago, should then be included in the lead due to the large Polish populations found there. The Polish article tells you the Polish name is Nowy Jork, and there you have it. A mouse click away. Dr. Dan (talk) 15:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course we should avoid ultranationalistic POV. That is why article should be edited by peoples of various nations. Now i see many articles written in only belarussian POV. Somebody could think that there was no lithanians or poles in Hrodna. Listing names in other languages only shows it's diversity and respect for other nations living in the city. That is why article of Vilnius has the names listed in languages in which local minorities called it. Adding the Names_of_European_cities_in_different_languages for most diverse cities which has common history and culture for many nations would be great thing to avoid nationalistic POV and help to understand the history. Of course we shouldn't write lithuanian name for Chicago or arab name for Paris only because of large minorities living there. Historical names should only be added to cities which belonged to other country before or had large HISTORICAL minority. Karolis-lt 21:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

There should be polish name

Grodno.Grodno before II WW was mostly polish city. Poles 60%, Jewish 37% Belorussians and Lithuanians 3%

please, read this article. in 2013,in Belarus was adopted a new system of tranliteration en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_on_transliteration_of_Belarusian_geographical_names_with_letters_of_Latin_script

Pitchers?

Can someone explain what the term built-in pitchers refers to in the paragraph "Medieval"? I was not able to locate a specialty definition pertaining to architecture, that explains it. I would also like to remove the various "foreign" (non-Belarusian names), from the lead. There are links in all of the other non-English Wikipedias with their own articles in Lithuanian, Polish and Russian WK. Dr. Dan 13:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Pitchers, jugs or ewers were built into the walls of pre-Mongol Orthodox churches in order to improve acoustics. They were commonly built into the vaults, to alleviate their pressure on the walls. As their round apertures opened into the interior, multiple layers of built-in pitchers were used in Hrodna purely for decorative purposes. You are welcome to improve my phrasing to make the meaning clear. As for the second part of your question, I really don't know. Probably we should move all these names down into the text. We should keep in mind that many (if not most) people google for this town as "Grodno", because this had been its familiar name for centuries and because Russian is kind of official in Belarus now. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Polish name of Grodno

Why someone remove Polish name of the city ? It was a Polish city in the past. Before II World war there wasn/t any Russians or Russian language. It was russificated like all Białoruś by Soviets. Polish population of Grodno or all polish voivodeship of Białystok was expelled by to communist poland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.21.61.57 (talk) 19:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Confusion

"The town was scored to be dominated by the Old Castle ...."

In English, scored doesn't really make sense in this context. Was some other word meant? Sca (talk) 16:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Category

Category:Grodno should probably be renamed to Category:Hrodna. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:46, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Nazi-era ghetto

According to this archival photo of a memorial monument, Nazi-occupied Grodno had a ghetto with 29,000 Jews. This doesn't appear in the page's section on Grodno's history during WWII. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:30, 8 June 2010 (UTC) _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Beginning of new post Title Grodno as Jewish center —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.87.155 (talk) 23:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that the article is woefully inadequate in a basic respect. One need only Google "Grodno" and pull up the Jewish Encyclopedia article on same. It is like two different cities--no "indeed they were" necessary here. The Wiki article in fact notes that "like other Eurpean cities (!), grodno had a significant Jewish population." Significant?? It was, according to the Wiki piece 48%. Do we understand what 48% Jewish meant? It was in fact considered a Jewish city, and the hitory with the garnts from various Polish and Lithuanian nobility makes that clear--see the Jewish Encyclopedia piece. So my issue with the article is not as to any incorrect statements or facts, but rather the total misimpression one would have aif this were the only readong on subject. There is absolutely no separate section on Grodno as a Jewish center, which it obviously was. According to my mom, who grew up there, given the concentration of Jews in the center, and the concentration of Jews in the urban type of activities--commerce and trades--this during the two centuries to and past WWI, the Judeo-centric nature of the Jewish Encyclopedia piece is in fact a more accurate depiction (picture) of Grodno.76.185.87.155 (talk) 23:51, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Grodno as Jewish center--200+ years

First posting but I failed to put in a category. The posting above starts with the article being inadequate, and should have been separated from the comment before noting Nazi ghetto. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.87.155 (talk) 23:55, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 00:14, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

---

Hrodna → Grodno — There are multiples reason for changing the name of this article:

1. By far the more used term in English, as evidenced by both regular and Google books search results:
   • Regular: Grodno - over a million, Hrodna - about 130 thousand.
   • Google books searches: Grodno - about 90 thousand, Hrodna - about two thousand.
2. It is the English name preferred by both the local: [1] and the national authorities in Belarus: [2]
3. The name of the region is at Grodno region, it's rather inconsistent to have its capital at Hrodna.
4. All other regional centers in Belarus have been moved to their Russian names.

Kostja (talk) 18:22, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support, since Grodno is more widespread in English-language sources. --Glebchik (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Grodno is much more used in English-language texts. Google Ngram Viewer comparison --DonaldDuck (talk) 06:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

• Support. As long as Lukashenko is in charge, Belarusian names have no place here. "Grodno" also has a historical pedigree. — AjaxSmack 03:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Garten

The article claims that during World War II, the Germans renamed the city to Garten in 1942 after they conquered it from the Soviets the year before. I can't find any reliable source that this ever happened. The furthest I got was a webpage citing a single source that states it was a name used by the Teutonic Order for a while, along with other variations such as Garton and Gartena. Also, every German map from the period that I've seen always clearly show the name as Grodno, even post-1942 ones. For that reason, I'm deleting this bit from the page, which has been unreferenced since it was added in 2008. I'd be interested if anyone can find any reliable sources to shed more light on this.--Morgan Hauser (talk) 08:40, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

In this map Grodno is renamed as Garten: http://www.mapywig.org/m/German_maps/various/Small_scale_maps_nazi/POSTLEIT-GEBIETSKARTE_1.5M_VII_1944.jpg I took it from here: http://igrek.amzp.pl/mapindex.php?cat=GERGENERALNAZI --151.41.182.37 (talk) 21:55, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Also this one: http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/agdm/id/6554/rec/43 --93.144.98.207 (talk) 06:19, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

And this one: http://www.chronicles-of-the-luftwaffe.de/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Gea-%C3%9Cbersichtskarte-Mitteleuropa-1.5M-Reduced.jpg --188.152.159.54 (talk) 16:04, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Changing the name

Hello!

There is an official Instruction on transliteration of Belarusian geographical names with letters of Latin script. Could You kindly change the name of the article from Grodno to correct Hrodna? --Belarus2578 (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Baltic or Baltic-Slavic?

Slavic has been removed without quoting sources and explaining.Xx236 (talk) 07:39, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Confusing sentence in WWII section

Would someone please clarify this sentence in the article, World War II section: "The part of Poles were expelled or fled to Poland 1944–1946 and 1955–1959." Please add a note here when resolved. Thanks. 5Q5 (talk) 15:33, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I have rephrased this sentence along with its paragraph. Double sharp (talk) 10:10, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Lithuanian settlement in 12th century

Could someone check what the provided source (Greenbaum's The Jews of Lithuania: A History of a Remarkable Community 1316-1945) says exactly? I've added a better source needed tag as the book is about a different period than the one the passage is about (12th century). Alaexis_¿question? 13:23, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Grodno Regional Drama Theatre.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:53, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

English name of the city

On all UN maps the name of the city is written as "Hrodna", it’s time to correct this misunderstanding on Wikipedia. In any case, "Grodno" will redirect here. Belarusian volunteer (talk) 23:15, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

The current title is due to WP:COMMONNAME. Undoubtedly, "Grodno" is used more often in English than "Hrodna". For other settlements where there is no such common name, we follow BGN/PCGN romanization of Belarusian as per WP:BELARUSIANNAMES. In any case, the procedure is WP:RM. Mellk (talk) 02:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@Mellk "Grodno" is a historical mistake caused initially by the polonization and then the russification of Belarus. Why can't this romanization system be used for all Belarusian names? Belarusian volunteer (talk) 08:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I am afraid that "historical mistake" is not a valid reason for changing this. This system is used when there is no common name, the common name is used because this is the policy. Mellk (talk) 00:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Hate to revive this discussion but there is a level of using specifically Belarusian names in the west after the 2020 protests, but at a much more limited scale than say, "Kiev" to Kyiv. 🤓 WeaponizingArchitecture | scream at me 🤓 17:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not really see this. For example, Google Scholar returns about 1,000 results for Hrodna and about 15,300 for Grodno since 2020. If we include all years, then it returns about 2,700 results for Hrodna and about 59,000 for Grodno. So about 1:15 for results since 2020 and 1:22 for all years. For results since the year 2000, it is about 1:7. If anything, there is an opposite effect. Google Ngram also does not show a sustained increase for the alternate name such as in the case with Kiev/Kyiv. Mellk (talk) 02:48, 14 May 2024 (UTC)