Talk:Gringo/Archive 2007

My friends & I use the term

We allways refer to people that are of european(white) ancestry.

Well, there are different uses. Here in Argentina, I'm of european ancestry, but nobody calls me a gringo. We just call people from the U.S. gringos. Slartibartfast1992 21:54, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree not only that we hardly use Gringo at all. We use Yankee much more often and even still does not mean ""anyone of European descent"" since most of all Argentines are of European Descent. We use Yankee with people who are only from the US. (XGustaX 16:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

Gabacho

I heard on the radio (NPR) a Mexican-American saying that Mexicans use the term 'gabacho' to refer to Americans, more often than they use 'gringo'. Can you confirm? If so, I think that this fact has a place in the article. ike9898 01:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

• I live in Mexico, and we definitely use more often the word "Gringo" rather than "gabacho". This is in central and south Mexico. makeyourself 01:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• I am from Spain, where "gabacho" is used to refer to French nationals only

• I am from Spain too and "gabacho" is only used to refer French speakers User:Cidfadon

• I am a Mexican living in th US and the word Gabacho is way more used than gringo in the US,( maybe because we know gringo is widely know for Americans and we dont wanna get caught or be rude) but in Mexico We use them interchangeably Gringo and Gabacho, some parts use more one than the other User:David 8:15 Jul,22 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tetzaoncoatl (talk • contribs)

Bad effects of the word "gringo"

I have removed this personal essay.

One can say that the general use of the word "gringo" against white people or groups of white people has strong negative effects concerning the connections between the continents. Central American and the South American populations are blocking themselves from contents and wisdom of Europe and North America, which of course has to be selected.

By the word "gringo" also popular propaganda by populists is supported and prejudices are enforced as they are in the history books until today. This leads to falsifications of the history and to new enemy pictures - and above all to the denial of true reasons of bad happenings e.g. of economical crises or wars etc. Also personal relationships can be badly damaged by the word "gringo" when e.g. the general mentality of a town (generated by "school programs") or private propaganda work is enforced against race mixed families or is damaging relationships within families.

So the word "gringo" has not at all a good effect whereas the countries of Central and South America are independent since more than 150 years. As it seems these negative effects have never been concerned by the governments of Central and South America until now.

--Error 23:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The damned etymology again... or the urban legend that wouldn't die!

What is the explanation for the deletion of the following passage, and the other edits made by User 85.50.143.215?

This is an example of an invented explanation, because gringo was used in Spanish long before the war and during the Mexican-American War. Additionally, the U.S. Army did not use green uniforms at the time, but blue ones. /Qmfound.com/

Unless one is provided soon, I will revert the article to its previous version again. FilipeS 22:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Gringo

Felipe, you have done good work on this page. It’s informative and interesting.

It is inaccurate though to categorically state gringo is a derivation of griego. Each etymology involves speculation – that’s why the Real Academia Española does not cite the Corominas’ work as fact – so the phrasing you have is misleading. Some Mexicans think gringo applies specifically to Americans not as a derivation of “griego” but as a mutation of “guero,” which is slang for blonde. Corominas, who was Catalan, writing about a chiefly Mexican word while he lived in Chicago is like an Scotsman in Canada commenting that the word “coke” can mean orange soda in some parts of the US. I am not saying he is wrong, gringo from griego does make the most sense, but the point is it is a stretch to unconditionally label the other concepts as “folk” etymologies – especially since the term has different connotations in depending on the country. Trans-Atlantic linguistic studies looking back two or three-hundred years are difficult to rely on; the number of Spaniards arriving in the Americas from Iberia with their vernacular dwindled at the time of the independence movements, and language changes faster than dictionaries and academic studies. How can anyone be certain gringo in Mexico is not a mutated form of guero, or from the song lyrics, or the green undershirts the soldiers had on since it was too hot for their blue wool coats? The point is it is not certain and the language on the page needs to be cleaned up a bit to make that clear.

Have a look at how they do it on the Spanish wikipedia page for gringo:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gringo

I think it’s a better tact on describing the etymology. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.50.143.215 (talk) 22:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

Interesting. Your own source says the term was already used in the 1600s-1700s. So how could it have been due to some American invasion?

La palabra "gringo" aparece escrita en España en el siglo XVIII. El famoso "Diccionario Castellano con las voces de ciencias y artes" (1786-1793), compilado por el padre Esteban de Terreros y Pando, explica que la palabra gringo es usada para referirse a extranjeros que tienen dificultad para hablar castellano con naturalidad.

By the way, it's by no means a "chiefly Mexican" word. FilipeS 22:39, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

“Your own source says the term was already used in the 1600s-1700s.”

Felipe, etymology is not just the study of where and when a word first appeared.

I referred you to the Spanish version so you would read the way the author expresses an idea that is “probably” the case:

Lo más probable es que "gringo" es una deformación de la palabra "griego".

The language you use to phrase the same idea claims the Corominas etymology is a certainty—it's not!

Also, your “etymology” does not take many things like this into account:

Hay un gran debate sobre cuál versión es la correcta: que si viene del español "griego" o del inglés "green grow ...".No es nada fuera de lo común que una palabra cambie de significado y de origen. Por ejemplo, la palabra "cachar" primero venía de "cacho", pero después llegó del inglés "catch" y cambió de significado. Al principio la palabra gringo sólo significaba "extranjero", pero después de la guerra entre México y Estados Unidos, pasó a especificar despectivamente a alguien de origen Inglés.

Anyway, I don’t know how much experience you have with reading Spanish, but the es.wiki gringo page has other things which would add to this text—for example this above about the word’s change in meaning from foreigner to American or European/white etc. over time, and the Buenos Aires English-invasion explanation. All of these themes should be listed under “etymology.”

You’re right, saying gringo is “chiefly Mexican” is not quite right!

Well, I don't disagree that the article could be rewritten to be more nuanced. (Incidentally, I thank you for your compliment, but I've actually contributed very little to it, myself.) However, that does not change the fact that some of the proposed folk etymologies are nonsensical or suspiciously "just-so" stories.

You are welcome to rephrase the article more carefully, as I think you might have been trying to do. I just think you should be careful not to give equal weight to explanations with unequal plausibility (even if none of them can ever be established with 100% certainty). That was why I reverted the changes you made.

Another interesting point about the article in the Spanish-language Wikipedia is that it makes it clear that Corominas is not the only source who says the origin of "gringo" is "griego". Regards. FilipeS 11:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• I´m brazilian and the term gringo is the descrition of a turist with fenotipic caracters of the germanics peoples(anglo-saxons, germans, northern slavs, etc...)!! Not is commom the use of the term with southern europeans and asians(considered very similar to natives races and not "different"/"of out")!! Because not is agressive!!

White people

I can't believe there's debate about this. Has anyone seen a Mexican use the word gringo towards anyone who isn't white? No.

This word is not just used by Mexican immigrants to the U.S. FilipeS 19:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I am a mexican living in Mexico, and African-Americans from the United States are called gringos if they speak English and behave in typical 'US tourist' boorish fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.240.253.118 (talk) 00:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course.(DoubleNine 17:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

Well calling someone white isnt a racial slur, SqueakBox 18:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

What SqueakBox said. (DoubleNine 18:47, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

To all the white people utterly offended by the word (people that refused to read all former conversations in this talk page where all this is explained over and over), try this on for size: George Bush and Donald Trump are gringos. Al Sharpton and Danny Glover are gringos too. Lucy Liu and that Grant Imahara guy from MythBusters are gringos too. The are gringos because they're all from Gringolandia (see above). Y se los dice un mexicano, quien, creo yo, tiene un poco más de creedibilidad que un mocoso zafio.

And even though I am not American I also am a gringo. Being unnotable I wouldnt be called one were I never to have been in Latin America but I have. The only person who ever insulted me with the term gringo was an Argentinian holding up the migration queue leaving Nicaragaua complaining because they wouldnt let him leave as he had no dollars (for the leaving tax). I, stuck in the queue behind him called to the customs to open another queue, which caused him to use this term as an insult and the authorities to open another queue. But mostly its a term I here when referring to myself and the idea that people call out Gringo to me int he street would be bizarre, particularly nowadays, SqueakBox 19:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Show me one citation of a Mexican-American calling a black or Asian the word "gringo". They've called the white Americans that plenty of times.

Again, this word is not just used by Mexican immigrants to the U.S. FilipeS 20:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not, they are just a tiny minority, SqueakBox 20:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Brazilians DO use the word "gringo" for Americans of any race. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.24.12.175 (talk) 04:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I am Mexican and I live in Mexico. I have always used the term gringo referring to someone from the United States, no matter the color of their skin. As long as I know that a person is form the Unites States I call that person gringo (not offensively). Mexicans who do not speak any language other than Spanish sometimes can not distinguish that easily between a person speaking English or another language, for example German or French (though they are very different languages). So those Mexican might call Germans gringos, but only because they thought they were Americans. In Mexico when we want to insult an American we would say “Pinche Gringo”, if we do not say “pinche” before “gringo” it is not intended to be offensive. We call people from Mexico city “chilangos” and it is not offensive until we say “pinche chilango”. I have many Argentinean friends and they call Americans Yankees. Yankee is only offensive when they say “Yankee de mierda”. I do believe that the term “gringo” is offensive in the United States, but that is not the case in Mexico. In Mexico saying gringo is equal to saying American in the United States. The same thing happens with Chinese. In Mexico people thing that everyone that has Asian-pacific kind of eyes are Chinese. People in Mexico cannot distinguish between a Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai or whatever. I fortunately have been studying Mandarin Chinese for three years and I can make the distinction between the phonetics of those Asian countries. I have problems however to distinguish between them by their looks. Well, Chinese people dress differently than Japanese people, and most Japanese people have more hair (beard) than Chinese, but that kind of things are difficult to notice without a careful look or without having the experience of traveling around Asia. Referring to someone in Mexico as Chino is not intended to be offensive. I have curly hair and in Mexico we refer to people with curly hair as "chinos". People with "chinese eyes" are also said to be "chinos".

Pinche gringo! lol. Pinche is one of my favourite words. We Brits speak English so we tend to get lumped together with Americans. And as I have made very clear to my wife and others to call me an American would be an insult in the way that calling me a gringo never would. And yes, you obviously know what you are talking about, SqueakBox 22:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah Squeak. Here in Mexico if we know that a black/white/red/yellow person is American we would consider him/her a Gringo too. The word “pinche” is funny because it actually means "cook assistant" and it is usually offensive, but like most words it depends on the tone. Pinche, although a noun, is used as an adjective meaning "despicable" or something like that. ChemaSAN 23:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

You guys are all stupid except for the Mexican!!! Gringo means Yankee to refer to the Americans damn you guys need to learn or somthing! Geez Gringos now a days thinking they know our Language!--Manny Ribera 11:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

FILIPES: Please cite your sources

This entry consists mainly of off-the-cuff opinion.

If you wish to cite a similarly weighty source to American Heritage that says this despicable term is NOT disparaging, then do so.

In case you didn't notice, this is the English language wiki: that the American Heritage Dictionary "does not speak Spanish" is irrelevant. It is an unimpeachable source on terms that have entered the parlance. Perhaps you should confine, then, your comments to the Spanish wiki?

Also, it is incumbent on you to provide sources for your apparently baseless opinions. Please do not simply remove ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› } tags.

Thanks.BulldogPete 02:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not write opinions, I write facts. And it's not as if I singlehandledly wrote the whole article. I have added all the sources I am aware of, most of which were already in the article. It's not my fault people are too lazy to look for them. A few statements remain unsourced, but I have kept them, as they are consistent with what the other sources state.

Incidentally, in future kindly do not make radical and biased edits to the article without discusing them here in the talk page first. You knew full well that other editors were not in agreement with you. FilipeS 03:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced claims are subject to removal at any time. Incidentally, each of your sources mentions that this term is an insult. As has been discussed extensively, there is actually no question whatsoever that the term is disparaging.BulldogPete

To BulldogPete, if you ever tell another user to "confine" themselves to another Wikipedia based on their ethnicity again you will be blocked for WP:NPA. Good day.--Jersey Devil 10:30, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

What a sanctimonious, self-righteous and absurd comment. The user had previously made a comment that the American Heritage Dictionary did not "talk" Spanish. I was responding to that, and did not make any reference to anyone's ethnicity. Are you gentleman/lady enough to admit your mistake in making a personal attack on me? Good day.BulldogPete 10:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

"Incidentally, each of your sources mentions that this term is an insult." Oh, quit being such a liar. Who exactly do you think you're fooling? FilipeS 14:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

To Jersey Devil, Attempting to silence someone through such a threat is deplorable; especially when, upon reading BulldogPete's entry, it becomes clear that he made no ethnic comment whatsoever. At the very least, please learn the difference between a Question and a Command. Farkeld 05:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Someone creating an account only to defend someone is awfully suspicious, I smell sockpuppetry. -- Caribbean~H.Q. 07:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

This account was created before BulldogPete ever made his first post regarding FilipeS, or is Ad hominem your style? Farkeld 14:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Why would I attack you? I don't even know FilipeS. However a sleeper sock account can be created at any moment that proves nothing. - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

The burden of proof lies with you in your accusation, not with me in my defense. Farkeld 02:55, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

My aunt recently went to Peru to see Macchu Picchu. To the natives, the trail leading up to the Inca ruins is known as the "Gringo Trail" because only rich white Americans can afford the high costs of the hike. I think this information could be included in the Peru section as it is quite relative, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.14.37.221 (talk) 14:59, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

Irish precursor to “Green Grow the Laurels"?

(New post starts here, my first. I'm not totally clear on how this works.) I’m not a Spanish speaker, but I have a long history of interest in Irish music, and the discussion of how the word “gringo” originated is totally fascinating, with numerous interesting observations from various points of view. To me the origin of the word is important because it may say things about prejudice and how the influence of prejudice has or has not been maintained. Just as a general observation, the meaning of words quickly adapts to the purposes and places of cultures, countries, cities, even neighborhoods, so it seems possible for the meaning of the word to vary considerably by place and culture, regardless of how it got started.

The sound of the word strongly suggests a relationship to some form of “green go,” and that explanation is attractive just because it’s the sort of absurd thing people do with language. In addition, I still haven’t seen a convincing explanation of how pronunciation of “griego” would logically have evolved into “Gringo” other than the difficulty of distinguishing the verbal ee from een. Why would any Spanish speakers add an apparently gratuitous “n” sound?

Another angle of that source, however, is the equally provocative observation that the original “griego” may have been used in the 1700s especially to refer to expatriate Irish in Spain, who, coincidentally, could also have worn green military uniforms and sung a variation of “Green Grow the Laurels,” adapted in Ireland to express contempt for misleading Parliamentary proposals (You sent me a letter, a red rose a line.) that always seemed to favor the English at Irish expense (I’ll be your sweetheart, if you will be mine.)

Whether or not the term is currently common somewhere doesn’t mean that it was never common, or even that it isn’t still in use by another language group in the same area. I’m not sure I have any idea how some words are used by my kids’ friends or even ethnic groups in my own neighborhood. How long did it take me to figure out what “feenin” meant, and do I have any idea where it came from?

So what I’m mucking about with here is the possibility that gringo originated from a combination of sources that have batted it back and forth like a tennis ball that picks up grass and lint every time it rolls off the court, and now it’s a little ragged and squashed and it may be hard to say what brand it was in the first place. I have yet to see a convincing argument that it is not any of those things, but the word seems to be widely known, if not equally used, in both Spanish and English. How did it get to be so common without encouragement from more than one source? Refteks 16:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello, welcome to Wikipedia. Frankly, that seems like too much of a convenient coincidence to me. Can you present any evidence that such an Irish song existed in the 18th century, and is related to the origin of "gringo"?

I am forced to agree that the derivation "griego" → "gringo" seems a little forced, phonetically. However:

• Unlike the other ridiculous theories, this one is the the sort of absurd thing that people sometimes do with language.
• There are scholars who study the Spanish language, and have published works in which they argue that the origin of "gringo" is probably "griego".
• All the other explanations put forth are, quite frankly, suspiciously "just-so" and implausible. They're also suspiciously alike, and self-serving. Disgruntled Spanish speakers can comfort themselves with the thought that at least they have an "ugly" word for their American/British(/Irish?) foreign oppressor. Conversely, Americans/British/Irish can feel less guilty about the racial slurs they use against Spanish speakers with the thought that the "Spics" have bad words for them, too. It's all too convenient, if you ask me. Show me the evidence.

Regards. FilipeS 21:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Guiri

Why don't include synonyms like "guiri" ? --Emijrp (talk) 19:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Two reasons:

• Gringo is used all over Latin America, while guiri seems to be exclusive to Spain.
• The meaning of gringo varies considerably between countries, so it can be misleading to say that it's a synonym of guiri. FilipeS (talk) 20:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm spanish and i can tell you that guiri and gringo have different meaning. Gringo is not used in Spain, only in some countries in Latin America. Guiri is used only in spain, not in Latin American. Guiri have several meanings, one of them is "foreing tourist", but it is a colloquial and not offensive term, even spaniards call themselves "guiris" when they are tourist in a foreing country. I'm not agree with the redirect page Guri-> Gringo. it's not the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.125.31.68 (talk) 16:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

"Ask a Mexican"

I have removed references to a list of satirical definitions in a satirical column. The satirical column was being used innapropriately as a serious source of definitions and facts. --Ramsey2006 (talk) 17:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

"Green grow" etymologies

This etymology section is poor. Someone used yahootalk and an urban dictionary as references. The Royal Academy of Spanish dictionary from 2006 says that linguists dispute the origin of gringo; why did someone phrase this page to sound as if the Corominas text is definitive? It's not. Corominas cites early printed evidence of the word, yes, but he says nothing about how "gringo" has changed meaning over time, which is an important part of etymology. FelipeS, don't change my additions without explanation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.163.37.122 (talk) 01:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I reverted the changes you made because the "Green Grow"-type etymologies mentioned in the Folk Etymology section are not just "undocumented". They are demonstrably false. This is independent of whether Corominas' proposed etymology is right or wrong. Please do not change the article to imply otherwise until you build a consensus here in the talk page. FilipeS (talk) 19:09, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Saludos. There is no consensus on the talk page that supports Coromincas as a definitive etymology.

If you want cites about the etymology of gringo look at http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gringo ... or http://etimologias.dechile.net/?gringo ... or ... http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=gringo ... none of those use the phrasing you suggest. I don't know how to, but it might be useful to put links to those cites instead of using the "urban dictionary" and "yahootalk".

In reality the only legitamate source on gringo of all these pages is the Real Academia Española which lists a "Etim. disc." Entimología discutida -- so phrasing this page as though Corominas' explanation is the "Etymology" and the others "Folk" is misleading. This addition: "However, there is ample evidence that the use of the word predates the Mexican-American War.[3][8][2][9]" means little, since etymology does not depend on where and when a word first appeared--it is the study of both where words first appeared, and how words develop and change meaning over time.

I suggest the Spanish wiki on gringo as a guide to this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.57.188.77 (talk) 16:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The issue here is not the legitimacy of Corominas' derivation, it's the legitimacy of the "green grow" etymologies. These etymologies are unsupported and clearly unhistorical. What is misleading is to pretend that they are in any way believable. Describing them as simply "undocumented" gives them an apparent respectability which they have not earned. Or can you present a respectable source which accepts them?

The sources you mentioned won't do. The first one is Wikipedia, which does not count, the second does not present any evidence or arguments in favour of the "green grow" etymologies (and in fact at one point seems to acknowledge that it's an etimología popular, a folk etymology), while the third simply says the etymology of the word is unknown.

Translation: I don't know if Corominas' explanation is the right one. Maybe it isn't. But it is at least defensible. The "green grow" stories are totally baseless. There is a difference. FilipeS (talk) 16:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)