Talk:Grey fantail

split

The latest Handbook of the Birds of the World has the New Zealand Fantails in a species of their very own (with the Chatham subspecies). Interesting, no? Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

male & female

We have a pair around our house - i was wondering if it is the male that is the larger of the two? Alexander110 (talk) 01:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

In most passerines it is indeed the males that tend to be larger, but it is only a rule of thumb. So, probably, but not certainly. Sabine's Sunbird talk 01:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

File:Grey fantail.jpg

I think this is Rhipidura rufiventris not Rhipidura fuliginosa, so will revert the Grey Fantail page. If someone can confirm my id then put it on Northern Fantail, but re-upload under a new name. :-) --Tony Wills (talk) 09:02, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, Victoria, Rhipidura rufiventris shouldn't be down there ;-). Can't find many good pics or even descriptions on line. Your beast seems to be non typical for Rhipidura fuliginosa, or perhaps a juvenile (plummage not fully adult yet). You don't happen to have a version with its tail fanned out? :-) --Tony Wills (talk) 12:09, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Definitely can't be a Northern Fantail so must be a Grey. Please explain why you think it is non-typical, seems to match the description. Cf [1] [2] [3] [4][5] [6] [7] --Fir0002 08:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Good angle, but head out of focus

Better focus

It's the colours of the breast and belly. Your specimen seems to have a grey chest and only a hint of colour on the belly, although it could be just the angle and lighting making it appear to have a much broader expanse of grey on the chest than usual. Also the white throat band usually extends right around under the eye in a continuous strip, whereas your example seems to have a white bib under the beak then a short white stripe under the eye. None of the examples, linked to above, look quite like yours in all these respects. So although not diagnostic for the species a white throat band followed by a narrow dark band and a light yellow chest and belly seem to be the most common (and distinctive) form.

I looked through all the images available on Commons and the best illustration is File:Grey Fantail2444.jpg, but I was put off by the head being out of focus, so selected Grey Fantail1444 as being a well lit, in focus (and I think typical) example of the species (I used a cropped version for the description box illustration). But there is still lots of room for improvement, a fanned tail would be good :-)

So, as per my second post, I concede that yours is probably just a normal plumage variation. But I don't think it is the best illustration of the species that we have available. :-) --Tony Wills (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Glad you agree that this is a Grey. As for best illustration, I obviously disagree - that image has less detail in the bird and has lost virtually all detail from its chest feathers from what looks like overzealous NR. I doubt we're going to reach a consensus on this issue between us as we've obviously made our respective choices so if you don't object I'll ask an uninvolved party (User:Sabine's Sunbird) to comment. --Fir0002 10:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course I don't object :-). Personally I am much more interested in seeing the birds facial details and beak than worrying about whether I can see feather detail. You are probably right about the over-processing, it would be nice if people uploaded their original, unedited, photos first, and then their best cleaned-up version as well (although uploading raw versions might be a bit much :-) --Tony Wills (talk) 11:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

With regards to plumage - there are a number of subspecies and unfortunately even the HBW doesn't show them all. As such I am not sure which subspecies Greyfantail144 is (my first impression was that it was a New Zealand Fantail (although it seems to grey above) which is probably a separate species (most world lists split now them). Fir's photo seems to be fairly clearly a ssp albicauda. As for which looks best in the taxobox - Fir's fills more of the box and looks fantailish but the head colours of this subspecies make its face a tad difficult to see in the reduced form, that said I still prefer it. I will try and work out which fantail the other one is. Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:27, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The version I put in the taxo box is a closer crop than the original above, we could of course do a tighter crop. If we don't really mind what the full size version looks like, then a tight crop of File:Grey Fantail1444.jpg would be better than either. If we want to avoid a split into sub-species articles, then I suggest we have a gallery of sub-species including variations like the black South Island version (when we get a photo). Perhaps we should move this discussion to the Grey Fantail talk page. --Tony Wills (talk) 22:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not proposing separate pages for subspecies (although a gallery of what subspecies shots we have would be a great idea); but all the modern treatments (inclusing the very thorough Christidis & Boles 2008) split out the New Zealand birds, so we should probably do the same. And yes, this probably actually belongs on the talk page of grey fantail! Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:25, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

• Ok, moved from Fir0002's page. --Tony Wills (talk) 08:09, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I sometimes think birds move from one classification to another faster than fantails can flit between branches :-). Ok, then we should have two pages, one for "Grey Fantail" one for "New Zealand Fantail"? What is the scientific name for each, and what are the subspecies for each, and what are the synonyms (eg should Rhipidura fuliginosa be a redirect to one of those pages, or a disambig page pointing out two ways to go?) ? --Tony Wills (talk) 08:49, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Rhipidura fuliginosa is retained by the New Zealand Fantail as the nominate race was the South Island subspecies - to that species goes the North Island race placabilis, the Chatham penita and the extinct Lord Howe race cervina. The Grey Fantail gets all the other 8 subspecies and becomes Rhipidura albiscapa (I'll add the subspecies info to each). Sabine's Sunbird talk 19:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. If that is relatively uncontroversial I will start making changes to that effect.

Still leaves the question of the best illustration for the Grey Fantail page. With that new definition, I am not familiar with whole variety of sub-species and what the most common form is, although many of the online illustrations look like the subspecies illustrated in this closer crop of File:Grey_Fantail2444_crop.jpg (quality sufficient for infobox illustration). But with the seperation of the species, I will not be so surprised if it is decided to go for a lesser illustration of a sub-species which doesn't look like the New Zealand species ;-) --Tony Wills (talk) 21:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

A lot of the fantails look quite similar. With regards to which one to use I was asked my opinion and I expressed a (mild) preference for Fir's illustration. However they are both adequate. Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:14, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Second that. Changed lead to my image since it is of higher resolution (once you crop out dead space) and does not suffer from motion blur in the face. All in all a superior image --Fir0002 10:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)