Talk:Greek city-state patron gods

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Untitled

The Greek gods of cities not only are important for religion, but, influence the standards of Greek cities. For example, Athens' flag was either a capital 'A' or an owl. Which represented Athena.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 September 2021 and 14 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mmpepl22, Vmcini.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:57, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source check

Since none of the "sources" for this article have page numbers, I have decided to start fact checking.

Nicholas Ostler, Empires of the World: A Language History of the World. I find no mention of patron saint, patron god, or any comparison between the two. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:14, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Jon D. Mikalson, Ancient Greek Religion. Only 3 mentions of education,[1] no mention of Triremes. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:27, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Emily Kearns, Ancient Greek religion: A sourcebook. Not viewable, unverifiable. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:29, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Simon Price, Religions of the Ancient Greeks. No mention of Artemis as a patron god of Sparta. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:35, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Andrew Solway, Ancient Greece. Not viewable, unverifiable.[2]
Hanson?
Rhodes?
Berkert?
Napoli? --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:38, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More complicated than article suggests

See state+patron+gods&hl=en&sa=X&ei=quPkU8OIDYHMyAOlmYHABg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Greek%20city-state%20patron%20gods&f=false - starting by you commenting that the idea that each city-state had its own patron god was a common belief, the editor continued:""In her paper Susan Cole demonstrates that site-classification by patron divinity is a much more complicated problem than usually believed. In some cases the patron divinity escapes identification, which is not surprising. More importantly, there is no simple formula for identifying a so-called “state cult” or “civic cult”; in some communities it is impossible to identify among the civic cults a particular protective divinity. Conversely, some polis seem to have had several, some to have changed their patron deity over time, and some to have had no patron god or goddess at all."

And [3]"Divine division of timai: every (major) god his city—that is the briefest summary of current theories concerning city-gods or patron gods. The image of gods as city patrons, however, is mythical/theoretical rather than evidential.265 An Athenocentric bias in our sources may obfuscate the fact that often the patron divinity escapes identification, that some cities do not seem to have had a patron god(dess) at all, or that elsewhere several gods may have claimed that position."

But "he Twelve Gods of Greece and Rome - Page 334Charlotte R. Long - 1987 -"In the last named, as on the statuette of Jupiter Heliopolitanus, the set includes the planetary gods. It was Plato who expanded the concept of the Twelve Gods and their function as patrons of the city state. In his Laws he made them patrons of" Dougweller (talk) 14:56, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

yes, exactly so, and the danger of trying to make definitive statements based on syntheses from archaic texts. I've made a start on copy editing this article and removed some irrelevancies like Troy and Knossos, which aren't Greek cities. But all we have left is a poorly sourced list of city-state gods - the article doesn't even touch on the actual concept of importance of religion in ancient poleis. More to do, alas. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:05, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Stub and rebuild

I agree that we have a serious sourcing problem. Probably best to stub and rebuild, concentrating on the issues and probably Plato before we add any sort of list of names. Dougweller (talk) 14:57, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bizarre, this is article really doesn't cover the topic. I might skip Plato, who I never liked, and add some odds and ends from other texts, hopefully today. Also needs a copyedit. -- Euryalus (talk) 01:27, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Spartan Patron Gods

Just putting this out there, if you read Pausanias's writings, you'll notice that Ares is NOT a Patron God of Sparta. In fact, of the 150 temples in Sparta, only 3 of them are dedicated to Ares. See Here for more information — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.109.75.10 (talk) 06:44, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason someone (or some people) keep vandalizing the article, claiming that Ares was the patron god of Sparta. I suppose that's because they associate pop culture references about Ares with the city of Spartan warriors. Last time they even let the second part of the sentence, which is well-referenced and clearly states the epithet of Athena as protector of the city! Let's hope they don't change it - again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.198.213 (talk) 17:26, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They changed it. Again. And they (whoever "they" be) changed a lot besides. I've removed Ares as "patron" (whatever that be) of Sparta and replaced him with Apollo. Well, at least there's evidence of his cult on reasonable scale (festivals and whatnot). But seriously, this article is neither useful, nor researched, nor well-sourced, nor are the sources accurately represented. Even the idea on which it's based misses the point. Haploidavey (talk)

Interpretatio graeca/romana

The issues are cloudy enough without also dealing with this. Some of the information under the heading of "Non-greek states with greek patron deities" is stretching several points beyond what's reasonable. This article is not about city-states in general, but those in the area and cultural ambit of mainland and colonial greece; at least, that seems the case so far, else it could go on forever. Just as an example, Heracles is credited as "eventually divine" founder (or at least proto-founder) of oodles of cities in Greece and beyond, but just because he was identified with Melquart by the Romans doesn't mean we include him as divine patron of Carthage. Haploidavey (talk) 15:52, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]