Talk:Greek academic art of the 19th century

Problem: Munich School defined as Greek

Where is the article about the original Munich School that the Greek version was, as it says in the current version of the article "strongly influenced by"?

In art history, the term "the Munich School" is usually used to refer to the academic realism art movement in Munich developed under King Ludwig I's reign (1825-48), an art movement where painters like Carl Theodor von Piloty (1826-86) are regarded as founders and main representatives.

This appears to be an article about the application in Greece of the theories of the original German 'Munich School' and the Greek artists that adopted the ideas of this German school. It seems extremely odd, even on a basic, purely intuitive level, that a German art movement that started in, and is named after, a German city is suddenly defined as Greek art on Wikipedia!

The problem is also that the representatives of the Munich School (i.e., those who are descibed as part of the Munich School in art literature from around the world) did not exclusively paint Greek scenery, or include Greek myths and iconography, or live and work in Greece. Where will the artists of the Munich School that didn't paint from a Greek nationalist perspective fit in here? 71.160.35.169 (talk) 16:58, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, sort of. There is no doubt that the more common usage in English relates to German art. If the Greeks chose to use the term in Greek for their own art, influenced by Germany, that is their business, but the article should either be renamed (Greek academic art of the 19th century?) or at least relinquish the title if & when an article on the Germans is written, which judging by the state German art was in until just now may be some time. What is really cheeky is User:Ipodamos redirecting Academic realism here! I have redirected. Johnbod (talk) 17:31, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article does appear to co-opt the Munich School for Greek painters, ignoring the German teachers and artists, as well as the group of American painters who studied there before becoming prominent impressionists. As it stands, way too narrow a history. JNW (talk) 03:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK. The lack of a comma reflects German usage, but there's no reason for us to follow I think. Johnbod (talk) 11:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The best approach for now would seem to be to move this article to Munich School (Greek) or some such (I'm following the naming convention used for political parties, but there may be a better name), fill Munich School with a translation of the (surprisingly meager) article from German WP, and add dablink. Ewulp (talk) 05:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that in English Greek academic art of the 19th century is clearer - the use in Greek of "Munich School" can be explained in the text, but I haven't seem much use of that term by English authors in this sense. Most of these gbook refs refer to the actual German school or use "so-called", " " etc - gbooks. There also seems to have been a "Munich school" in music too (see [1]) Johnbod (talk) 12:42, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My familiarity with the term is admittedly narrow, referring to the American practitioners: [2], but that alone suggests the need for a broader application of the term. JNW (talk) 15:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both for the suggestions, and especially Ewulp for following through. JNW (talk) 03:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have sorted out the Greeks, but I wonder if the Germans & Americans would not be better merged to the school itself? Johnbod (talk) 04:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This would combine two stubby articles that repeat a lot of the same material into a single, more satisfying article, but it may be better not to merge. We have Munich School categorized as an art movement, which seems correct – "Munich School" is often understood to mean late 19th c. painterly realism with a dark background. But Academy of Fine Arts Munich is not an art movement, so Munich School disappears from [Category:Art movements]. Maybe the problem is solved by adding the category to the Munich School redirect page, but this creates a rather unexpected result, almost as if a search for Ashcan School went to Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts. Ewulp (talk) 11:15, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If more of the article was on the "school" rather than the "academy", as will be the case if they are merged now, I think keeping the Movement cats is justified - I've recatted these to the American and German sub-cats. Could one even rename to: Academy of Fine Arts Munich and the Munich school? Shouldn't there be a comma after "Arts" btw? Johnbod (talk) 11:51, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right about Academy of Fine Arts Munich needing a comma; if one is added the combined title scans badly (Academy of Fine Arts, Munich and the Munich school) unless reordered as "Munich School and the Academy of Fine Arts, Munich". I'm not troubled by keeping the articles separate. "Munich School" as a late 19th century style seems sufficiently distinct from the institution that spawned it to merit an article (Lake District and Lake Poets is a [poor] analogy). As far as I know, nobody has ever described the style of Klee's or Scully's work as Munich School. Ewulp (talk) 07:11, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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