Talk:Great Britain at the 2006 Winter Olympics

Does anyone have a source for them competing as Great Britain and Northern Ireland? While I haven't seen anything definitive one way or the other, what I have seen implies that they are competing as simply Great Britain. Caerwine Caerwhine 22:56, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that they are. It originally read "Great Britain is sending athletes..." to "Great Britain and Northern Ireland are sending athletes..." to the UK is competing as Great Britain and Northern Ireland." But "Great Britain" seems to be used exclusively by both the Turin people and the British (BOA). --JGGardiner 22:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I've removed Northern Ireland. If someone thinks that it should be there, could you please show some source. Thanks. --JGGardiner 22:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't that mean that the page itself should be moved to Great Britain at the 2006 Winter Olympics? Makemi 22:34, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. Taiwan is called "Chinese Taipei" at the Olympics (and elsewhere) but that is not the country's official name. Although I suppose that is contentious too. So the page should probably be named after the country and not the current Olympic shorthand. I suppose the question is what do you want to call the country, UK or GB? --JGGardiner 22:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

And that is a can of worms I don't even want to get near :) Makemi 22:55, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The question is, do athletes from Northern Ireland compete for Great Britain or for Ireland? I know that in some sports such as Rugby, they compete on an all-Ireland basis. Caerwine Caerwhine 01:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

It is definitely Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Whilst there is little written about the British team at the Winter games, there is a lot written about them at the Summer Olympics, and that is well-documented as being 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. They must be the same, as the name under which a national Olympic association is registered with the IOC must be the same as that used at both the Summer Olympics and the Winter 'Olympics' [1].

It being a UK-wide team, athletes from Northern Ireland usually compete for Great Britain and Northern Ireland (although Republicans may wish to represent the Republic of Ireland, as they are entitled to do as per a 2004 agreement between the BOA and Olympic Council of Ireland [2]). Others, like Owen Nolan, choose to avoid the whole political quagmire and represent a country that stands a chance of winning. Bastin8 00:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Frankly I think that's wrong. The NOC's official name is simply "British" (OA) which doesn't help much. Their website tends to use the term "Team GB" almost exclusively rather than a long version. However Bastin8's link proved my suspicion that it is not with "Northern Ireland" included. The only place where team name is used is as the bottom: "Simon Clegg is Chief Executive of the British Olympic Association and Chef de Mission of the Great Britain Olympic Team." --JGGardiner 03:21, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The name is mentioned in the linked article:

"Devolution provides the single greatest challenge to the sustained success of British sport because under the Olympic Charter until such time, and only if we move from the devolution to independence, we are required to compete as a combined team from Great Britain and Northern Ireland."

The Olympic charter states (Chapter 4; 31:2) that the NOC's name must 'reflect the territorial extent and tradition of its country and shall be subject to the approval of the IOC Executive Board'. The IOC Executive Board has ruled that the BOA cannot use the term 'Great Britain' as its official name on the grounds that such a name would assert that 'Ireland' (the Republic of Ireland's IOC name) represents Northern Ireland, which they don't.

The term 'Great Britain' is used loosely by the BOA and IOC on their own websites because they want to keep the names as snappy and as recognised as possible. Notably, they also do not want to imply that 'Great Britain' and 'Northern Ireland' are separate teams. If you want to see examples of the long name being used in official circles, see: the BOA's parliamentary submissions in Hansard [3] [4], an agreement signed by all British Olympic gymnasts [5], or a formal statement by the British Curling Association on Winter 'Olympics' eligibility [6]. Bastin8 17:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

You need to show somewhere that the team is referred to as GBNI. You have some great inferences but WP info must be verifiable. The problem is that you've taken every reference to the country of GBNI as proof that the team is called that. Look at the Clegg quote. He's saying that the country must have one team ("from"). He's not saying that's the name of the team. The Curling page also mentions that one is competing for the country of GBNI but not that the team is called GBNI. The gymnastics page is otherwise fine but refers to a previous team. Show me somewhere, anywhere, that is says Team GBNI or GBNI Olympic team in reference to 2006. Right now the only reference I've seen to the 2006 team is the Clegg one which is very clearly GB. Although the Torino people also use GB exclusively on their website. "Great Britain" (Gran Bretagna) marched in the opening ceremonies, even though long names are used there such as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Montenegro (Ex Repubblica Jugoslava di Macedonia). I'm not saying that you're wrong. Frankly I was surprised that NI isn't used. Please show me some proof that is used for the 2006 team. --JGGardiner 18:28, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

'The Clegg one' is an informal footnote that is restricted to 'Great Britain' to avoid confusing people into thinking that Simon Clegg is also Chef de Mission of the Northern Ireland Olympic Team.

The team must have the same name as that used under which the NOC is registered with the IOC. Countries are allowed to write whatever they want on their jackets, on their websites, or on the sign at the opening ceremony, but the official name, the proper name, is the one with which they are registered with the IOC.

All this non-evidence, that the name is 'Great Britain', could have been cited for 2004, but there is clear proof that the name was 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland' then, and none that it's not now. Given that, under IOC rules, the name cannot be changed to 'Great Britain' unless 'Great Britain' is reflective of the territorial extent of the country, and the IOC Executive Committee subsequently gives the go-ahead for the change, it's only sensible to assume that the name hasn't changed.

Obviously, having never been considered for the 2006 Winter 'Olympics', I can't provide a facsimile of the official form, but, then again, nobody has provided one that calls the team 'Great Britain', either. Knowing that there is no such information, nor any more information supporting the IOC name, that one could Google on the subject, I have emailed the BOA to ask for this precise information for 2006 and beyond. Bastin8 20:25, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be familiar with IOC rules but to be honest I'm not prepared to rely your expert opinion alone. WP info must be verifiable. We know that GB is used "informally" by the BOA, the Torino people, at the opening ceremonies, on the team jackets as you mentioned, etc. Now can you show me one instance where GBNI is used please? As I said, I'm not saying that you're wrong but you have to provide a verifiable source. I'm happy to add "informally" in the intro until we can find some sort of info on a more formal name. Personally I think that the public "informal" name is the most relvant if the formal name only exists on some undisclosed piece of paper anyway. But if anyone can find some info on a formal name I'll be happy to include that. --JGGardiner 21:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

An official PDF file with the list of participating NOCs in the 2006 Winter Olympics lists the UK team as "Great Britain". It also uses FYR Macedonia, Republic of Moldova, Russian Federation and Serbia and Montenegro. Sam Vimes 21:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The team is called "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" in the British television coverage (specifically the BBC). The team definately represents the whole of the UK - not just the island of Britain. This can be seen in the official website of the team. Due to the nature of politics of Ireland, sports people from Northern Ireland can elect to compete for either the UK team or the RoI team. That is a decision that is either taken personally, or by the governing umbrella body to which that person belongs. For example, in Northern Ireland there exists the NIJF (Northern Ireland Judo Federation), which is affiliated to the British Judo Federation. there also exists the IJF (Irish Judo Federation), which represents the Republic, for all intents and purposes, at international Judo events.

Personally I don't mind what the article name is - as long as it is made clear that Northern Ireland is represented as part of the GB team in the article text. To do otherwise would be unfair to the competitors from Northern Ireland, and also both unrepresentative and inaccurate. --Mal 20:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with the article name as it is (with NI). It is fine to call the country "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" and that is what the article refers to. However, it is factually incorrect to say that the team includes NI as that line does. The British people and the Olympic people generally use "Great Britian". The BOA prefers "Team GB" as a shorthand as well. But neither ever, ever uses NI in reference to Torino. I wanted to believe. I really did. I looked all around and I can't find one reference to the team including NI on the BOA, the Torino site, or Olympics.org. The only references to NI are as a place name or in the country name (such as an inclusion of the Kyoto treaty on the Torino page -- and only as part of the full UK name). I've looked at many media and find there are various names. "Britain" is most common. BBC tends to use "Britain" and "British" alone although sometimes "Great Britain" for example in their wrap up [7]. I can't recall all of the television I've seen but after a quick survery of their Torino webpage [8] I've failed to find one use of NI in any of those stories. Perhaps the team is privately called GBNI somewhere, or on some form. Although I've not yet seen evidence of that. The team is publicly called "Great Britain" only. The article says it "competed" as X GBNI. What does that mean? Does that mean the name that they were called at the competition or the name on their consent form (if it indeed exists).

If someone can show me somewhere that the is called GBNI please do. I'd be happy to walk away from this article. Like I said, that was my initial assumption. But I read Caerwine's question, did some digging and I've since faced the facts. Frankly I think thea team should call itself GBNI. But it did not. As it stands the article includes a facutal error. --JGGardiner 21:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, like I said - the BBC's extensive TV coverage calls the team "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" quite a lot, though I don't know if that qualifies as an 'official' citation, or if that would satisfy your own question about it. --Mal 22:14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

That was one of the first places I looked after I saw Caerwine's question. There are about ten references to "Great Britain" (and Torino) on their website. Zero for "Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Like I said above, they tend to use Britain or Team GB there. --JGGardiner 03:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I suspect they deliberately cloud the issue - if you refer to the British Olympic Committee /Irish Olympic Committee press statement [9], it states clearly that Northern Irish athletes can compete for which ever of Ireland or the UK as they choose. Average Earthman 05:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

JG, I looked at the webpage over a month ago now. From what I remember, while it didn't refer to "Great Britain and Northern Ireland, it did mention that the olympic team included representation of Northern Ireland. The problem arises out of the (erroneous) assumption that the term "Great Britain" refers to the whole of the UK. --Mal 14:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the team represents NI. Of course. Obviously. It is the team from the UK. But it is not called GBNI. Look at the sentence in the article: it says UK competed as GBNI. Well if we are talking about the place it represents, UK would have been sufficient. It represents the UK. But it isn't called the UK. It is called GB. Teams have names. There was once a "Unified Team" but it did not represent the country of Unified. Rather, it represented a group of countries (the CIS). GBNI is a decent description of the team. I never said that it wasn't. But it is not a descriptive sentence. --JGGardiner 15:28, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

JG, I'm not saying I disagree with you. Actually, on the contrary, I do agree with you. :) --Mal 15:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Mal. Sorry I didn't mean to respond to you as much as I just wanted to make my position clear because there were two issues (name and composition) and my views are different on the two. I probably argued more than I had to so I wouldn't have to come back and add it later. Sorry if that sounded a bit terse. As for the article, I'm happy with Caerwine's recent edit. Thanks Caerwine. --JGGardiner 17:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I received a response from the BOA today.

BRITISH OLYMPIC ASSOCIATION - TEAM GB
The team that the British Olympic Association sends to Olympic Games is the Great Britain and Northern Ireland Olympic Team - known as Team GB.
As such the BOA represents Great Britain (England, Wales & Scotland), Northern Ireland, crown dependent territories (including the Isle of Man) and certain British overseas territories to promote the Olympic Movement in the United Kingdom (i.e. inclusive of N Ireland).
The anthem that is played at medal ceremonies is the National Anthem of the United Kingdom (i.e. GB & NI) - this is "God Save the Queen".

The British Olympic Association is recognised by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) as a National Olympic Committee (NOC). The Olympic Charters states that only independent states recognised by the international community can be recognised by the IOC as NOCs. As such, any athlete reaching the necessary selection standards from Great Britain, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and any British overseas independent territory which presently doesn’t have its own NOC (some do, some don’t) would be eligible to compete as members of Team GB (subsequent to them possessing a relevant passport).

Bastin8 00:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

While informative, it's somewhat obtuse to the point raised. Still, there's enough there to definitely indicate that the article name should remain as it is, and the text might could use some expansion, but not any radical chance on this topic. Caerwine Caerwhine 01:28, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The article now says that the team "competed under the name Great Britain and Northern Ireland". This assertion obviously needs a verifiable source. Is there one? --JGGardiner 04:32, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The team is called "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" in BBC television Olympic coverage. --Mal 06:15, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a verifiable source on that? I've looked but couldn't find anything. I think that at best it may have been one of several interchangable descriptions they used although at the moment I can't find it at all. Like I said above, that name doesn't appear once on the website. They seem to prefer Team GB and Britain as I noted above.

More generally (sorry again Mal), even if it were called GBNI by the BBC or some other media outlet, does that really outweigh the name used at the games? Can we really say that it was GBNI was thrown around in a boardroom but not used at the games? It's now been three weeks since the games started and we don't have one verifiable source that it was called GBNI. Doesn't that say something? I just don't feel that this private name (assuming that it can be demonstrated) outweighs the public one. Australia might have privately called itself the Commonwealth of Australia, it might be the Kingdom of Thailand or the Republic of South Africa. Like GBNI, none of these appeared at the games but are common names for those countries. Should we check just to see? Until then, can we not say what these teams were really called? Shouldn't the Torino usage be predominant if not final? --JGGardiner 06:45, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking me if I have a verifiable source on whether or not the BBC referred to the team as "Great Britain and Northern Ireland"? If that's the case, then the source would be the BBC! As for "interchangeable descriptions".. when I watched it, every athlete that was on the screen running through their particular event was noted in text at the bottom of the screen as "<athlete name> Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

I'm not sure there is much of a problem to be honest. Any doubt as to what the team represents in the Olympic Games has been removed by the response Caerwhine recieved. Everyone already knew that 'GBR' means 'UK', so I'm not sure as to how pertinent it is to discuss this. During the forthcoming summer Olympics, the team name may well be changed to reflect proper usage - who can say? --Mal 07:03, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

As for the BBC I'm fine with your description of their coverage. Although like I said, it seems to be one of several descriptions used, not appearing at all on the website. Their interviewers seem to use "Team GB" on the videos I checked earlier. It is the most common name on the website. Incidentally, it is also clearly the preferred use, by far, of the BOA. I think Team GB has a far superior claim to the place in the article than GBNI does (although still behind GB). I'm less fine with Bastin8's email. But since that is not a comparable source to yours, I'll leave it at that.

There is no doubt what the team represents: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If it were a description, GBNI would work, as would UK and GB of course. But the article does not use a descriptive term. It says "competed under the name" GBNI. What does that mean? Where at the competition were they GBNI? The games organizers, the Olympic people, only use GB. At the games, the UK people only use GB. Did they ever say GBNI in Turin? I've yet to see it. At best the BOA may have used GBNI descriptively, as a secondary term to "Team GB" (along with similar use of Great Britain). I've yet to see use of GBNI by the BOA in Torino. The BBC may also have used GBNI in some television coverage but seems to favour other terms also (or at least use them interchangably with exclusion of GBNI on the website). The games organizers only use "Great Britain". How can they have competed under a name that was not uttered at the competition? --JGGardiner 07:38, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I should add to my own comment that I'd be fine with something that said that they competed as GB but "Team GB" and GBNI were also used by the British people. Perhaps there should even be a note on the name differences? Or I'd honestly be fine with wiping the name out: I really don't think it is all that important. But as long as there is an erroneous fact in there, I have a problem. --JGGardiner 07:50, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the IOC website used just "Great Britain", the placard carried in front of the team at the Opening Ceremony used just "Great Britain" and over here on this side of the pond, NBC only put Great Britain on the screen whenever they identified the country of a member of the team that the BOC sent. If any broadcaster were to be considered authoritative, I'd go with either RAI (as the host country network) or NBC (as the suckers who spent the most money (i.e. the golden rule)), and not the BBC. NBC generally bent over backwards to go along with whatever the Torino committee was using. Is there anyone who reads Italian who cares to check the RAI website and see if they can find what they used? Caerwine Caerwhine 07:45, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Anyone that asserts that every sentence has to be corroborated by a freely available source is clearly stretching Wikipedia citation guidelines to a ridiculous extent. Sometimes, there just isn't enough information freely available on the Internet to provide such citations, hence why they are only guidelines, not hard and fast rules. In this case, it is a very simple factual statement that is obviously correct, as corroborated by the email attachment that I just reproduced. If JGGardiner's only objection is to 'erroneous' entries, rest assured that it is most certainly not erroneous. If extra reassurance is required, email the BOA or the IOC.

Furthermore, if what was written on their placard at the opening ceremony was important, that would be the subject of the sentence; instead, the team name is the subject. All the quibbling over what is use on websites, placards, jackets, TV captions, or bobsleighs is irrelevant, because their name is "Great Britain and Northern Ireland Olympic Team", and that is now well established. Bastin8 13:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Their name is not GBNI Olympic team at least in BOA circles. Read the line: the GBNI team is "called Team GB". In any event, I think that text that you've produced was not written by an Olympic official. Maybe it was written by a BOA intern. It is hard to tell. But the writer of that text makes mistakes that no Olympic official would. S/he makes mistakes that I wouldn't and I'm not even the expert that Bastin8 is. And that's just on this page. Most glaringly I noticed that s/he says that only independent states can have NOCs. That of course is just plain wrong. The writer either doesn't know enough about the Olympics to know that Puerto Rico, Hong Kong, Guam and others have NOCs (not to mention both Chinas) or does not know enough about Britain to know that Hong Kong is not an independent state. Perhaps both. In any event, the writer does not know enough about the basic stucture of the Olympic organization[10] to have credibility as a source in my eyes.

It sounds as though the letter writer is answering a question that I'm not concerned about, eligibility to compete for the team. The letter writer uses terms like UK and GBNI interchanchably but it isn't team UK is it? The actual use of GBNI is descriptive. Read the opening sentence it says the GBNI team "is called Team GB" (apparently even the interns know BOA standard). But even if you disagree, all this shows is that the BOA might sometimes use GBNI. The reason I'd like see a source is that all that can be claimed is that GBNI is an "official" name. It is not the public name of the team. It was not called that publicly by the BOA, even once. So I'd like to see proof that something is official. Then we can start to talk about if the official name is actually more important than the public one. Frankly I don't think that you've shown that the team is officially called GBNI. In fact, your letter shows that the BOA prefers "Team GB", if you trust that letter writer. In any event, the BOA is not the only party involved in the Olympics. I did agree with Bastin8 up top when you said that we should follow the Olympic guidelines. They don't allow for a "Team GB" but that is clearly the overwhelming preference of both the BOA and the BBC (check their website including both the text and videos of television coverage) The BOA could call it "Team Fairy Sparkles" if they'd like in their own office (and perhaps they did -- I haven't checked) but when the team actually arrives at Torino they aren't allowed to say that. Did they ever say GBNI in Torino? Even if they used GBNI privately, which I doubt, they did not use it at Torino. They absolutely did not compete under that name. They competed under a name that they did not utter at the competition? --JGGardiner 15:22, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Caerwine I don't see why you would prefer NBC coverage of a British team over a British broadcaster! --Mal 14:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Because NBC bent over backwards when it came to using the exact same names as the Torino committee did for everything, including using Torino instead of Turin, even in non-Olympic coverage. It didn't depend upon an in-house compiled style guide that may have had no connection with current reality. On the other hand, the BBC used Turin and not Torino, which indcates if nothing else, it wasn't consistently following the usages of the Torino Games with respect to names. Caerwine Caerwhine 23:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I can't imagine that there is any doubt as to what form was used by the (Torino) games organizers. I hope that I don't have the argument wrong but I believe that some users think that the (supposed) usage by the BOA and the BBC trumps what was used at the games and by the rest of the media. Incidentally besides NBC, I know that among official broadcasters France 2 and the CBC (Canada) also used Great Britain exclusively. Among the German language media, ARD and ZDF (both German) use Great Britain. The Austrian ORF was thinner. It mostly describes winners and lists the rest with codes. But the article describes Rudman as British but I can't find a noun. For the Swiss, TSR (french) and SF (german) both use Great Britain. Those are some of the official broadcasters from countries where winter sport is popular and widely covered. --JGGardiner 00:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)