Talk:Grand vizier

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ethnic origin

If someone has a good reference, it may be worth discussion the Grand Vizier's role in the Ottomans' policy of involving the elites of the various non-Turkic ethnic groups in government. For example, after the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the first four Grand Viziers were Christians (three Greeks and one Slav). --Delirium (talk) 07:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Serdar-ı Ekrem

Serdar-ı Ekrem does not mean "Sadrazam", it is the commander of the army in war. It can be Grandvizier or another vizier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.179.198.225 (talk) 22:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Villains in folk literature

Grand Viziers often seem to be villains in folk literature, typically trying to usurp the kingdom. The Arabian Nights is one famous example. 86.183.166.152 (talk) 00:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 30 April 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Grand vizier, but not moved for List of Ottoman Grand Viziers. No prejudice against List of Grand Viziers of the Ottoman Empire/etc; please feel free to open a discussion for moving the other article. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:38, 15 May 2017 (UTC) ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:38, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

– This is a common noun (see any decent dictionary), parallel to "prime minister" Chris the speller ^yack 14:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. — Insert CleverPhrase Here 09:40, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. — AjaxSmack 00:54, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support the first, since at least two states used the title so it is generic. Oppose the second per List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom etc, since that is a proper title. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support both. "List of Ottoman Grand Viziers" is descriptive, since the title was simply "Grand Vizier"; List of Grand Viziers of the Ottoman Empire would also be a possibility, though, and I favour that one over the current and proposed names. Constantine ✍ 13:22, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I'd support a move to the latter too. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:25, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support the first, Opppose the second, both on consistency grounds. That is, it should be grand vizier, but List of Ottoman Grand Viziers. This is because "grand vizier" is used in Turkey and India (and maybe elsewhere) but "Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire" is a specific title.

According to the Google Ngram "Grand Vizier" comes up more than "grand vizier" -- by a fair amount, and always has, although the trend is toward equality (current trends matter, but so do old and existing works that users are likey to be familiar with)

We do not use preponderance of sources to determine MOS issues like capitalization, though. A Google Ngram is better guide for larger issues like deciding between "grand vizier" and "grand wazier", or "grand minister". But it's still a data point. (As to "Prime M/minister", the Google Ngram favors "Prime Minister" even more, although the trend against that is even stronger. So perhaps rather than looking to that article for guidance, it should be renamed too. We also have Vice president. (Senior Minister, but "Senior Minister" is an official title specific to Singapore.)

On the merits, "grand vizier" is both a proper noun and a description. Like "T/twentieth C/century". To my mind it's pretty much personal opinion. "X was appointed Grand Vizier, and was the type of grand vizier who..." works for me. "Vizier" is definitely not capitalized. Anyway, voting for "grand vizier" for consistency with other titles.

As to the second, you could go with lowercase, since List of Ottoman grand viziers isn't quite the same as Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire because of the plural. But... even though we have Prime minister, all the list articles seem to be "List of Prime Ministers of X". Ditto all the presidents are List of Presidents of Brazil with the exception of List of presidents of Russia. So consistency would tend to favor List of Ottoman Grand Viziers I think. I do not favor List of Grand Viziers of the Ottoman Empire since it is longer with no commensurate gain. Herostratus (talk) 15:30, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the second. Would you suggest moving List of Presidents of the United States to List of presidents of the United States? For the first, I would probably always capitalise Grand Vizier myself, but I would understand why others might not. Opera hat (talk) 01:27, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Something I do have to recommend.

Something I recommend is that this particular page be split into two pages - one of whichever so here says “Grand Vizier” and the other saying “Grand Vizier (Ottoman Empire)”, since even before the years of The Ottoman Sultanate Empire - at the least as has been often understood by me - the title “Grand Vizier” was used for the most trusted of all “Royal Viziers”/“Viziers”. Examples of that here do include Nizam al-Mulk who in some sources and stories has often been referred to as “The Seljuk Grand Vizier” and the likes of that title. LordMegatron88000 (talk) 18:40, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Grand Vizier" of "Mogul India"

The Urdu word "Vizier-e-Azam" literally means "Grand Vizier", the "Mogul Empire" had their own leader.

This term is used to represent Pakistan, in contemporary era. 137.59.221.36 (talk)\\\~\\\\\\\\~~ 137.59.221.36 (talk) 10:00, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]