Talk:Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich of Russia

Name of this article

This article should, by rights, be Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich of Russia, which was his actual title. I see someone has moved it, but Grand Duke Andrew is not correct. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 17:05, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Russian royalty is frequently referred to by English names. Charles 17:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

But the most correct version of the name is Andrei, not Andrew. The style in recent years has been to use the Russian translation of the name rather than the English version of the name. I want to see this article moved back to Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich of Russia. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 18:11, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Most correct according to you? Charles 18:28, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The books I've seen published about the Romanovs in recent years have used the Russian forms of the name rather than the English: Andrei instead of Andrew, Kirill instead of Cyril, Maria instead of Marie, etc. That's what I'm going on. It also seems more respectful to use the form of the name that is used in the country they were from. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 19:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

So far I haven't seen any proof of common usage from either side of this dispute. Please, somebody, cite some English-language sources. Noel S McFerran (talk) 19:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Here are some Google Books results:

19 "andrew vladimirovich"

229 "andrei vladimirovich"

Admittedly not every individual called "Andrei Vladimirovich" is the grand duke, so I did another search:

37 "andrei vladimirovich" "grand duke"

Even then, "Andrei Vladimirovich" has double the hits of "Andrew Vladimirovich". Older works (e.g. the obituaries in The Times and The New York Times) use "Andrew". But more recent works tend to use "Andrei". It seems to me that the tide has turned with this one, and that "Andrei" is now dominant in English-language publications. Noel S McFerran (talk) 20:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep. All of the Romanov biographies I have from the last decade or so use the Russian forms of the name. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 03:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Mistress?

A mistress is a woman who has a continuing sexual relationship with a man married to another woman. Given that the GD married only once, how can he be said to have "married his mistress"? Ordinary Person (talk) 04:49, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move. —Wknight94 (talk) 01:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

I am requesting that this page be moved back to the original title, Grand Duke Andrei Vladimirovich of Russia for the reasons given above. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 23:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• Support Google Books shows fairly clearly that Andrei is much more common than Andrew, particularly with more recent works. Noel S McFerran (talk) 00:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Charles 03:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Why? Please elaborate. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 12:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Internal consistency. Most other Russian grand dukes have English names here on Wikipedia. To insist on Russified or Russian names is "intellectual" snobbery and your POV when the vast majority of grand dukes have perfectly English names. Charles 20:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. As noted, this particular grand duke has been referred to as Andrei in most recent publications. The style now trends toward using Russian names. He was baptized as Andrei Vladimirovich and was known as such in Russia. The family probably called him Andrew or Andre since they spoke more French than Russian at home. But Andrei was definitely his "real" name. How on earth can you term it "intellectual snobbery" to call the Romanovs by their actual names? I'm all for internal consistency. I think these articles all need to be renamed to the correct Russian form of the name, first and patronymic. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 20:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Nikolai II of Russia? Oh please. Hey, I have a great idea! Let's rename the article Андрей Владимирович Романов! Charles 21:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Not the Cyrillic, no, but Andrei Vladimirovich is the closest approximation to it in English. Associated Press style, which is what I often go by, is to use the translation of a Russian name that is phonetic. Andrei is the closest phonetic approximation to his name; Andrew is not. In the case of the Tsar, "Nicholas II" is used because he is so widely known as Nicholas II, from his own time to the present day. He's a special case. Andrei Vladimirovich gets more hits than Andrew Vladimirovich does and should be used, considering that it's best to use the name that a person is best known by and also taking into account a close phonetic approximation of a name in a case when he is not already extremely well known by the English version of the name. Grand Duke Andrei was never particularly well-known, even in his own day, in the West, so Andrei is more appropriate than Andrew Vladimirovich. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 03:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support if Andrei is more common as evidence suggests than Andrew use Andrei. - dwc lr (talk) 18:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
• Support as nominator - --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 22:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC).

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.