Talk:Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958)

Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia
Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia
	Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna, 1912.
Born	April 18, 1890; St. Petersburg, Russia
Died	December 13, 1958; Konstanz, Germany
Children	Prince Lennart, Duke of Småland (1909-2004) and Prince Roman Putiatin (1918-1919)
Parent(s)	Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich of Russia and Alexandra Georgievna of Greece

Biography: Royalty and Nobility

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Russia: History Mid‑importance

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Greece

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Sweden Low‑importance

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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Not moved, 21 August 2011, from Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958) to Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958), see discussion.
No consensus, 6 September 2023, from Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958), see discussion.

A Few Corrections

Marie's stepmother did not use the surname Paley until she was created a princess by Nicholas II shortly before World War I.

Marie's business in Paris after the revolution was called Kitmir and produced very high-quality machine embroidery which was mostly used by the great Paris fashion house of Chanel. Marie never operated or owned a dress shop, though she made most of her own clothes for a considerable time, and also took in orders from friends.

In her memoirs, Marie maintained that her embroideries were of the highest quality. The business eventually failed because it was under capitalized and Marie knew next to nothing about how to run a business.

RogerInPDX 03:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)RogerInPDX[reply]

Box

I removed this box from the website. It should be re-added, however, the problem is, that when this table is in the article, the entire article ends up in the box. I can't figure out how to fix it, hopefully one of you can. Mulder1982 10:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why such a long article name?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 16:46, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958) → Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958) – Not reasonable to have such a long bio article name, with title and all, when her identity is determined through her life years in parentheses. SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:53, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:NCNT title is relevant, moving would imply she was Empress as prospered move is format reserved for sovereign kings, queens, emperors and empresses. - dwc lr (talk) 22:10, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It is inconsistent to take off the title, but leave the "of Russia". Move to Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna. That's the way she is given in this news story from 1917 and in The Flight of the Romanovs. I note that is actually shorter than the proposed shortened version. She is the referent for the first few results that come up on Google, so I think we can make her primary topic. The term is a redirect to nowhere now, so we might as well use it for something. Kauffner (talk) 12:05, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per "Other royals" point #2 at WP:NCNT, and because there were 2 grandducheses of this name whose lives overlapped, so dates readily disambiguate. Other alternatives should be considered after this move is rejected. FactStraight (talk) 09:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page move to vital dates

To let a DAB determine an article title is to let the tail wag the dog. The addition of vital dates to end of a title is not usually considered an improvement. If you think some Maria Pavlovna is primary, that article should be RM'd to the base name. Kauffner (talk) 22:58, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The "best" known Maria Pavlovna is probably Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin "the grandest of the grand duchesses" but she still isn't the primary subject because Maria Pavlovna could equally refer to all three Grand Duchesses by that name; Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin is not anymore famous than the other two, not to the degree that she would the primary topic anyway and her title follows the rule that grand duchesses by marriage are supposed to be under their maiden names. I don't see why we should remove the dates at all since seven Russian grand duchesses uses dates on their title and even the Russian wiki uses dates. This is definitely an improvement than calling her the primary topic.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 01:25, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The title should be the actual name of the subject as it typically appears in the RS, at least to the extent that is technically possible. I doubt you can find many RS than give the subject's name with vital dates. Natural disambiguation is preferred to parenthetical, per WP:PRECISION. Which is primary, Red Meat or red meat? If we applied the above logic, both terms would point to a DAB. This is a very editor-oriented reason to move an article. From a reader's point of view, you've added some ugly dates to the end of the title that the vast majority of Wikipedia's biographies don't have. No one expects a title to have dates of this kind, so the reader is unlikely to use them as a source of information. Most readers are looking for an article rather than as DAB. If this is the wrong article, there was hatnote to send them to the right article. When there are only two topics of any significance, one or the other should be primary, per WP:TWODABS. Kauffner (talk) 11:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt many resources actually speak of all three Grand Duchesses at once or if they did they would uses phrases like "daughter of X" or "sister of X", etc to distinguish them. If you don't like dates because no one else uses them why don't you call this Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich of Russia's daughter), that defintely is an improvement. There are examples Prince Friedrich Karl of Prussia and Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaevich of Russia where there are only two.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 19:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus for any suggested alternative. (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 16:29, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958) → ? – A decade ago there were discussions on how to title and disambiguate the page better but nobody followed up on it. Some have pointed out that using dates in the title is not an improvement and there were several women called Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia. There is no clear primary topic. One uses her maiden name for the article title, I've proposed a move for the second and this is the last one remaining. She was married twice but divorced. The titles of her husbands could be used as a more natural disambiguation. Alternatively, she seems to have been called the younger during her lifetime to differentiate her from an older Maria Pavlovna. Killuminator (talk) 21:01, 6 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 01:00, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a tough one as she was married twice (and had children with both husbands) so there's no clear married title to use. I like the idea of using "the Younger", but I don't know how. "Maria Pavlovna the Younger" is too similar to the format for queens. "Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the Younger" is a little better but loses the recognizability of the territorial designation. "Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia the Younger" feels too clunky. estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:31, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn't feel out of place for some Roman high society woman. Other alternatives could be using younger in brackets or after a comma. Killuminator (talk) 16:32, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't mind brackets. estar8806 (talk) ★ 03:33, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retain current title. None of the proposed titles thus far strike me as an improvement; the current DAB is WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE, and I find myself inclined to keep using it. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:05, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.