Talk:Graham Hancock

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Q1: Why does the article say that Hancock's ideas are pseudoscientific?

A1: Hancock has written numerous books and has made television documentaries, but does not submit his work for peer review in mainstream academic journals. Wikipedia articles are based on reliable secondary sources and do not present theories as valid if they are not supported by experts in the relevant field. When Hancock's work was examined by mainstream archaeologists for the BBC's Horizon documentary series in 1999, academics were critical of aspects of his work, and after a complaint by Hancock and Robert Bauval, the Broadcasting Standards Commission found only one point of unfairness in the documentary.[1] Hancock has ample opportunities to promote his work through his own channels, but it is not the job of Wikipedia to right great wrongs. Unless his work undergoes peer review and is accepted in the academic community, it cannot be presented as having equal validity to work that has undergone peer review.

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Accusations of "White Supremacy" etc.

The clause:

"the theory it presents has a long-standing association with racist, white supremacist ideologies; does injustice to Indigenous peoples; and emboldens extremists."

is a textbook example of the Genetic fallacy and the Ad hominem logical fallacies. Charles Darwin was a racist, and his theories were used by fascists, the KKK, white supremacists , et al., extensively . Does that mean his theories are wrong? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 13:04, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But Hancock did not originate them, he just repeated them, after it was known they were white supremacists. Slatersteven (talk) 13:05, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So?

The phrase given above is a quote from the Society for American Archaeology which is made clear in the article, it is not being stated in Wikivoice.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:11, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was just addressing the basic point, as to why the Genetic fallacy maybe a fallacy. Slatersteven (talk) 13:14, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A logical fallacy is a fallacy? Please elaborate.

I did above. Slatersteven (talk) 12:00, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue) is a fallacy of irrelevance in which arguments or information are dismissed or validated based solely on their source of origin rather than their content.

Hancock's "theories" are not wrong because they have racist origins, but because they are factually inaccurate and contradicted by archaeological evidence. That they still have racist implications is a separate points. Hypnôs (talk) 14:05, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a waste of time, see this old discussion. Talk:Sphinx water erosion hypothesis#Missing archaeological evidence and Talk:Sphinx water erosion hypothesis#Here is a summary of what I would like this article to make clear Doug Weller talk 14:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hypnos That's right, and I have no problem with that. Criticism should be based on archeological science, not Genetic and Ad hominem logical fallacies. To ascribe racism to GH is irrelevant...unless a person's goal is to throw mud and see what sticks. I could be wrong but doing so may be a violation of BLP. Not sure. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 17:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's also a significant difference between using a theory that was created by a racist (like Francis Galton's theory of regression) and using a theory that is itself racist in content (like Francis Galton's theory of eugenics). Hancock's assumption that non-white people weren't capable of building things without help from an elusive lost civilisation definitely falls into the latter category. – Joe (talk) 14:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, that is the Genetic Fallacy. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 17:10, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's properly sourced, so it's none of our business to sort out if that amounts to a fallacy. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:20, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, but there is no rebuttal to that source. An entry saying something to effect that GH rejects this assertion would be beneficial to the article. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 17:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would you be satisfied, if we add this rebuttal?

"Hancock has rejected allegations that he is racist, and has expressed support for native rights." Hypnôs (talk) 17:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's a good idea per WP:NPOV. I don't think that Hancock's work is deliberately setting out to be racist in the same way as the Nazis or the KKK, but he has laid himself open to charges of eurocentrism by implying that non-Europeans needed help from a mysterious lost civilisation.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:38, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Hypnos and Ian. That would definitely be appropriate. @ian, Just a small point. Eurocentrism cannot be applied to GH's theories, since he is talking about events that happened about 11-12 thousand years ago, when there was no meaningful definition of "European". Thank you, both Hypnos and Ian!! Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 20:28, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As long as we have a source for that? – Joe (talk) 10:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes we need a source saying "Hanckock has denied this". Slatersteven (talk) 12:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See the link I provided below in my response to Joe.

It's not the genetic fallacy. The genetic fallacy is dismissing an argument because of where it comes from instead of its content. Archaeologists don't dismiss Hancock's arguments because they come from a racist source. They dismiss them because their content is racist (and factually implausible and totally lacking in empirical support etc. etc.) – Joe (talk) 10:37, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. Dismiss them because they are "factually implausible and totally lacking in empirical support etc. etc.".

Not because they are "racist", which is a completely subjective opinion and has nothing to do with archeological science.

As you stated perfectly in the second part of the your last sentence ("factually implausible...etc.") , that is what the article should reflect. Racism is outside the scope of archeological science. I have no problem with charges of racism in the article, as long as there is a rebuttal.

GH was genuinely hurt by those charges, as he made completely clear in the Flint Dibble debate on the Joe Rogan show [2] (relevant part begins at 4:19 to the end, but the whole show is worth watching), in which he disagrees vehemently with those charges. Therefore, to keep to a neutral point of view, a rebuttal is necessary. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 12:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am an archaeological scientist and can tell you that (anti-)racism is certainly relevant to my work. Racism, apart from being morally abhorrent, is scientifically false. If a theory in archaeology or any other field is racist, it is wrong. I learned this in my very first year of university and apparently the membership of the Society for American Archaeology, the largest professional society of archaeologists in the world, whose letter you are objecting to, agrees. I'm curious on what basis you are challenging our understanding of the boundaries of our field.

Anyway, Doug had it right from the beginning: there's no point engaging in discussion unless you have some specific, source-based changes to this article to propose. – Joe (talk) 12:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The story is like this: he is a racist in respect to Ancient civilizations; he is not a racist in respect to present-day people. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:09, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I assumed good faith but, frankly at this point, I don't believe you are an archeologist. Why? Because archeology of 12000+ years ago has nothing to do with racism as it is understood today. If you disagree, please provide some evidence that racism has any meaning for your conjecture. Also, I did provide a source. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 21:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, someone from the "Institute of Archaeological Sciences" pays my salary every month, that's enough evidence for me. – Joe (talk) 22:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, the racism critique of his work stems from his theories being viewed by others as belittling or demeaning the achievements of native and indigenous groups, which have long been rooted in the colonial mentality that only those of european origin could build such great monuments or make scientific discoveries, thus it had to be someone else who brought it to them (hence why terms like "eurocentric" are used). And while Hancock has distanced himself from that view, his Ancient Apocalypse series decided not to film in the US due to protests from native groups. Harryhenry1 (talk) 14:08, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GH did not "distance" himself from charges of racism. He flat out rejected those charges. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 21:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a written source for this? In principle we could cite the YouTube video you linked, but it's not ideal. – Joe (talk) 22:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That semantic distinction is more just splitting hairs for me. I'm not denying Graham doesn't see himself as having that racist view of prehistory. Harryhenry1 (talk) 02:16, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Water is wet, and racists hate being called racist more than racism. News at 11. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:28, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

see WP:MANDY. Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is an essay on NPOV. Per WP:PUBLICFIGURE "denials should be reported too".

This source sums it up well:

Some critics have therefore already accused Hancock of – at least, latent – racism. Whether one can accuse him of an intentional racist attitude, I dare to doubt, ...[3] Hypnôs (talk) 12:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Hancock has rejected allegations that he is racist, and has expressed support for native rights." We do. Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the point you were trying to make with WP:MANDY is that it should not be included. Hypnôs (talk) 12:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am saying we should not give it undue coverage, we say he denies it, end of story. Slatersteven (talk) 12:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Digging Into an Ancient Apocalypse Controversy From a Hopi Perspective

[4] Thanks to User:Paul H. Doug Weller talk 14:42, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Embarrassingly POV & non-BLPSTYLE

I'm embarrassed that an article like this is on Wikipedia. It must be possible to summarize all the dumb shit Hancock thinks without sounding like an attack page. For example, it's easy to say that someone is outside of mainstream archaeological opinion and promotes fringe beliefs without having to assert that he is a pseudoscientist, since it's actually a little hard to understand exactly what that means other than it's clearly not a good thing.

I'm going to stick NPOV on the article for the moment. Maybe we can talk about whether we still need it when its fixed up a bit. Dingsuntil (talk) 23:19, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't "assert that he is a pseudoscientist". We say that he promotes pseudoscientific theories (hard to understand, really?). He is not just "outside of mainstream archaeological opinion"; he persistently attacks and demonizes mainstream scholarship using a rhetoric borrowed from conspiracy theorists. About the tag: do we have to leave the mainstream and cite fringe sources in order to restore NPOV? –Austronesier (talk) 23:33, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I personally am not a big fan of the pseudoscientific in the opening sentence, because Graham Hancock by his own admission is not trying to write objectively or scientifically. His writing is part of the current of Western esotericism/the occult, influenced (directly or indirectly), by the works of people like Helena Blavatsky as noted by John Hoopes [5]. Pseudoarchaeology is more precise and accurate, and I would rather that term is used. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:53, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]