Talk:Government of Louisville, Kentucky

Reversion of major rewrite

I reverted the last major rewrite because it included a significant amount of irrelevant material, and lot of what was added looked like it was copied from somewhere. Also major rewrites like this should be discussed in talk first anyway. I would be happy for this article to be improved, but do it piecemeal and thoroughly explain each change -- and make sure it's relevant and in your own words. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 15:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page not moved: insufficient support Ground Zero | t 01:32, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

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Government of Louisville, Kentucky → Louisville Metro – Per WP:CONCISE and WP:COMMON name.

There is the minor issue that some users will be searching for the Louisville (lower-case) metro area, but that can be addressed in a hatnote pointing at Neighborhoods of Louisville, Kentucky. All of the incoming links to the existing Louisville Metro redirect are looking for this governmental page, though, and it is the entity's proper name, as given in the first line of the current article. — LlywelynII 02:55, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Louisville Metro Government currently redirects here, while Louisville Metro points to Jefferson County, Kentucky; while Metro Louisville points to Louisville, Kentucky; while Louisville metro area points to Louisville metropolitan area; there also exists Louisville/Jefferson County metro government (balance), Kentucky -- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 05:36, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I think Metro Louisville, which is admittedly vague, would work better as a dab page. Louisville metro area as a redirect makes sense the way it is now, as metro is a shorthand for metropolitan. The balance page is just about explaining the U.S. census approach to calculating population for Louisville. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 08:57, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

    Why? Metro Louisville does just describe Louisville, Kentucky. There's nothing to dab. Louisville metro area, on the other hand, doesn't really usually describe a census region: it usually describes the communities of Louisville and should point at whatever dab we end up making for all these other pages. The Louisville metropolitan area itself shouldn't be there: it should be moved to a proper name. [Done.] — LlywelynII 03:01, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

    It maybe is supposed to just describe Louisville, Kentucky, but it also connotes a metro area. Regarding the proper name for Louisville Metropolitan Area, I hope that the move you recently made isn't just done for this area, but for all such areas around the country, which are, I believe using the lower-case convention. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 17:59, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

    Ugh... Other questionable redirects are Louisville area and Louisville region. I'll point them at the census page for lack of something better and since they don't fit with a "metro" dab... but it'ain't right. — LlywelynII 03:08, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

    The census page is for Louisville Metro minus the internal incorporated cities. That doesn't seem to be a match for those redirecting terms. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 18:37, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: This article is a subarticle of Louisville, Kentucky that goes into depth about Louisville's governmental function (including its governmental history as a city before the merger). As a native and current Louisvillian and therefore very acquainted with this subject, I frankly don't understand this move request. It would be highly inaccurate to place this material under the name "Louisville Metro", which is today a synonym for Louisville, Kentucky. Moving/renaming would be akin to renaming History of Louisville, Kentucky or Economy of Louisville, Kentucky to "Louisville Metro". Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 06:46, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

  As a native and former Louəvillager, I frankly don't understand your lack of understanding. Your continued insistence that Louisville Metro and Louisville are synonyms strikes me at the very best as unconsidered and possibly disingenuous: surely you never say you are "a native of Louisville Metro" or "a native Louisville Metroid". The WP:COMMON WP:ENGLISH usage of "Louisville Metro" in caps is to describe the unified government, not the city or area. Hence, the move request. — LlywelynII 03:01, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

  They are indeed synonyms in a legal and geographical sense, although perhaps not a cultural one, thus a necessity for a disambiguation page. "Louisville Metro" is the shorthand name of the geographical entity, not its governmental functions which are covered as a subarticle here. Perhaps we could go out on a limb and call this article "Government of Louisville Metro", but I don't believe this follows the convention for the government of consolidated city/counties. The geographical place is still referred to by most people as Louisville, Kentucky rather than Louisville Metro or the longhand legal version. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 17:52, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: The only idea that makes sense to me is creating dab pages for "Louisville Metro" and "Louisville metro". They don't work well as redirects of any kind as they are apparently vague terms to some, and altering existing articles which serve a clear purpose (like this one), is highly disruptive. Like I said, the proper "Louisville Metro" is a synonym for Louisville, Kentucky, while "Louisville metro" is obviously vague. The case for making a dab for the former is weaker IMHO, but I would nevertheless yield to that and especially to the latter. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 07:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

  It's fine that your "comment" is really "oppose" and that a dab linking to Louisville proper, the Metro government, the neighborhood article, the balance article, and the census area article probably is more helpful than piling a bunch of links into a hatnote on this page (I'd totally forgotten about the census and 'balance' articles). That said, surely you can concede that it is not "vague" "to some". The common English use and incoming links are perfectly clear on the subject: Louisville is the city and Louisville Metro is its government. The problem is that you seem to be confusing that proper sense with the general idea of Louisville metro. We don't really want two dabs though: how about pointing LM at LM and dealing with them all there? — LlywelynII 03:01, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

  Whether it's vague to some or many is an area for argument but it doesn't really help us here. That it's vague to a significant amount is the point. I think there is a confusion here between geographical entity and that entity's governmental functions. This is a subarticle for the merged city, not an article for a separate entity. The government of the city isn't separate from the city, it's an aspect of the city. We are not supposed to let a number of possibly confused incoming links tear apart Wikipedia convention for city subarticles. Also, let's keep to discussing the issue without personal jabs, ok? I haven't made anything personal so I don't know why you seem to want to do that. Last, I don't think there's any problem with having as many dabs are as necessary. They are effectively navigational aids for finding content the user is intending to get to. So, let's help them. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 18:12, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support as proposed. A disambiguation page at Louisville Metro is unacceptable. Compare Memphis Metro's pageviews to Louisville Metro's... hmm, what reason might there be for why people never type in Memphis Metro but do type in Louisville Metro? Red Slash 17:36, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
  • It's important to understand that this article follows existing convention across the rest of the Wikipedia with regards to talking about the governmental functions of a city. I don't think we should disrupt this pattern for one case. The governmental functions don't equal a geographical name. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 17:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
  • The Louisville Metro stats link isn't working. Anyway, people probably type in Louisville Metro because it's the legal shorthand name for the merged city/county. But again, let's make a distinction between a geographical entity's naming and its aspects, which includes how it's governed. This article is about the how, not the it. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 18:28, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
    • OK, it works now. Thank you for pointing to the analysis. I don't think we can draw from the stats that people are searching for it with any particular intentions as to whether they mean the city/county's name or how it's governed. I assume that when a name is entered, they are looking up the city itself, not looking up how its government is run. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 18:32, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose (but maybe slightly rename to avoid any possible confusion) per my comments above. 1) This is a subarticle about the governmental aspects of a city (the how, not the it), following the existing Wikipedia convention for such subarticles. 2) The city (geographical area) as such is generally referred to as Louisville, Kentucky. The city's shorthand legal name is Louisville Metro. 3) The article name could only be more concise if called "Government of Louisville Metro", although this doesn't appear to follow current convention; maybe we could strike out on our own here and see how it goes. I would prefer to stick with naming convention, but in the spirit of honorable compromise, I could deal with it. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 18:23, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
  • To explain my vote a different way... For our purposes here, Louisville, Kentucky is the common name for a geographical entity legally called Louisville Metro (shorthand) since 2003. City subarticles like this one are about explaining a function or aspect of that city (see Economy of Louisville, Kentucky or History of Louisville, Kentucky), and that even applies to merged city/counties (which are treated like cities in the Wikipedia, as far as I can tell). The name of this article is not and was never meant to be a name for a geographical entity. That's why renaming of an article about a city's function to a geographical entity name doesn't seem like an accurate change. This article explains how Louisville, Kentucky (Louisville Metro) is governed. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 18:55, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Like all city subarticles such as this, the title is the equivalent of "Governing functions/aspects in {city's common name}" If you look at many of the articles like this (e.g., Government of Indianapolis or Government of New York City), you will notice a kind of convention or standard approach. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 22:11, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: Preposterous. That's just an abbreviation, and it's a confusing one, too, since most such uses refer only to transit authorities (the DC Metro and Paris Metro for example, are subway systems, not municipal governments). Keep at Government of Louisville, Kentucky, or move to Lousiville, Kentucky municipal government, or even make the official name be the article title, anything but Louisville Metro. PS: Louisville/Jefferson County Metro Government didn't even redirect to this article until I fixed it just now, so I'm having a hard time taking seriously all the ranty-pants above - no one can profess to having a big stake in this issue if they can't even get the basic, undisputable, official facts right.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:28, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: per User:Stevie is the man!'s reasoning. Plus WP:NAMINGCRITERIA specifically gives examples where an easily recognizable name like Manhattan trumps "official" governing names like "County of New York" (or abbreviations of such as in this case). This is an article about how the Lou is governed: name it as such and keep it simple. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 03:08, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is a bad idea. Wikipedia has evolved a rather bland but predictable system of naming, and it works. I agree that most outsiders will associate "metro" with the city itself or its transportation system. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:54, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. When I read "Louisville Metro" I expect to read about a transportation system. Markewilliams (talk) 00:32, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose for the sake of clarity. "Louisville Metro" could be the name of an article about a vaguely defined metropolitan area or a public transit system (see Metro) or possibly (in this particular case) a well-defined place with specific borders. But the one thing I would not expect to find described by that phrase is a government. As Stevietheman said above, "This article is about the how, not the it." I suggest that "Louisville Metro" should just redirect to Louisville, Kentucky. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:04, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • @BarrelProof:, there's a discussion about where "Louisville Metro" should redirect at Talk:Louisville Metro. It was recently redirecting to Jefferson County, Kentucky and I had changed it to Louisville, Kentucky, but it got changed back to Jefferson County, and then redirected to this article. For what it's worth, I agree with your position, as today Louisville Metro is synonymous with Louisville, Kentucky. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 13:13, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Rewrites I just completed

When I created this article in the first place, my intent was to create a subarticle about the governmental function of Louisville, Kentucky, and this was backed up in Template:Louisville (Subject areas) and as the main article for Category:Government of Louisville, Kentucky. That's why I changed the lead to bold the term as government of Louisville, Kentucky, as that is what it should have been all along.

"Louisville Metro" (current synonym for Louisville, Kentucky) as the bolded term was incorrect as the article isn't about the city as a whole. I'm not sure why I let it stay that way for so long, but I guess it didn't dawn on me until today. At any rate, if the bolded term caused any confusion, that should now be corrected.

As for linking the main article within the bolded term, this is common. See Government of Indianapolis. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 08:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure your rewrites accomplished what you think they did:

The government of Louisville, Kentucky, (Louisville Metro)...

means that the name of the government is Louisville Metro and therefore implies that it's just badly worded, that the sentence should read

Louisville Metro is the government of Louisville, Kentucky,...

and that the page should be moved to Louisville Metro. I'll take a stab at writing what I think you're trying to get at, that Louisville Metro is the proper name of the unified area formed in 2003 while remaining distinct from Louisville proper* or the government which administers its area. You can let me know if there's some other understanding you have. — LlywelynII 03:16, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

*You actually seem to not believe a Louisville proper exists and that "Louisville" is now completely and utterly synonymous with "Louisville Metro" but that seems somewhat questionable.

Done. What remains unclear to me (and should be addressed) is whether Jefferson County has any remaining existence or powers at all and, if so, what they are. The JC article itself speaks as though the county somehow exists although its government is gone although the post that headed that government (County Judge/Executive) continues to exist although it is vacant. Which is just impenetrable as far as understanding what is going on back there.

I've explained my position in my vote above, but "Louisville Metro is the government of Louisville, Kentucky" is not as precise as we can get. "Louisville Metro" is the shorthand name for the consolidated government (the type of city we have now), not a moniker for how it's governed (what this article was created and maintained to be about). I think your rewrite demonstrates that there is an understanding for this being a subarticle like other subarticles describing how a city is governed. This is why a dab page would be useful, so we can explain to readers that "Louisville Metro" is the shorthand legal name for the current city/county government (i.e., the city), and we can point to "Louisville, Kentucky" (the common name) and "Government of Louisville, Kentucky", which explains how Louisville Metro is run. I've also done some additional revisions that hopefully enhances the accuracy and understanding for the reader. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 20:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Re: Jefferson County, that is a related subject, but probably doesn't belong in this particular discussion. In short, there are still some Jefferson County functions as I say below. This discussion should go into Talk:Jefferson County, Kentucky. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 21:57, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

There seems to be some nuance to it but, lacking an understanding of it, I just phrased the opening as though the merger was complete, total, and replacing. That seems closer to the truth than not, but rephrase as needed. — LlywelynII 03:34, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I added nuance there. It actually was not a 100% replacement, as the County Clerk and Sheriff remain county-level offices with full duties. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 20:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

In Kentucky Counties are constitutionally created, whereas cities are creations of the legislature, when there was a merger of the two forms of government the form that was created by the constitution is the successor of the two. Were this not the case, for example if the city of Louisville had simply annexed all the unincorporated sections of Jefferson county, then the Louisville Metro government would other cities in Jefferson County, some such as Jeffersontown and St Matthews, are rather large cities on their own account, but the are subject to the jurisdiction of Louisville Metro. In addition after the merger, the city ordinances were disposed of, and the county ordinances prevailed in the new government, and when the two police forces merged it was the county police force that was the successor entity. While Louisville Metro has the appearance and function of being a city form of government, it is legally and in reality a reformulated county governmtent. To summarize in a merger of a Ky County and City one of the two forms of government have to be extinguished, to eliminate the county government would have taken a constitutional amendment, which did not happen, eliminating the city government would take a legislative act, which is what happened, if the city had been the legal successor, Metro would have no authority over the remaining cities in Jefferson County. Louisville/Jefferson County Metropolitan Government is in reality Jefferson County, but called the city of Louisville.DexterPG ^Talk • —Preceding undated comment added 16:44, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for this explanation. Do you have any specific actions you would like to see in the article, in a "change x to y" format or something similar? (preferably with citations we can use) Also, you have the ability to boldly make edits to the article yourself if you like. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 20:16, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

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