Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 7

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American Goth Metal Bands

Another thing: and what about the American Goth Metal bands?

For example: an analysis of the mid-to-late '90s phase of Christian Death would be very interesting. They released some solid Goth Metal records like Sexy Death God (1994) & Pornographic Messiah (1998). And what about Shadow Project, Rozz Williams's post-Christian Death band?

Also, something more about Type O Negative's musical output is sorely missed... For example, how their music influenced European Goth Metal acts (Moonspell and Lacuna Coil, for two).

And last - but not least - what about Danzig? Yes, his Metal is not Goth Metal in the rigorous Eurocentric definition of that term; nevertheless, he/the band influenced loads of Gothic Metal acts such as Anathema and Moonspell.

201.50.40.75 23:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Lacuna Coil is Gothic Metal, not Goth Metal. Anathema and Moonspell are not Gothic metal, either. Please read the article.

11 years ago, when asked by Terrorizer magazine what kind of music they played, Anathema themselves said they played a type of "gothic metal" (that was the first time I heard the term).

Secondly, when Moonspell released Irreligious (1996) they were immediately included as one of the leading lights of European Gothic Metal by some very serious Metal magazines (Brazil's Rock Brigade, for one).

201.50.45.161 15:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Ive been following the Melodic Metal genres for many years. Trying to question me isn't going to affect my argument. Also, it is common knowledge that small independent magazines are not seen as reliable sources. Magazines deliberatly misrepresent bands to sell issues all the time - what they give is opinion, not facts.

Bands themselfs are also not seen as credible sources for their own genre, as many bands claim to be something they are not.

Something i forgot to mention before. The Gothic-Doom section does need seperating out into Goth Metal (what yew seem to be quite knowledgable on) and Atmospheric Doom. With your knowledge of Goth Metal's history, you could be highly helpfull in the rewriting of it.

"I've been following the Melodic Metal genres for many years".

It first glance, Melodic Metal bands don't seem too different from a number of contemporary Gothic Metal bands.

But I guarantee you that: Helloween and Paradise Lost come from completely different frame of minds, music-wise. If you want, I can later tell you some I've noticed.

Also, I wouldn't say Terrorizer UK and Brazil's Rock Brigade are "small, independent magazines". Quite the contrary: they are major-circulation magazines in the Heavy Metal scene. I can't think any magazine bigger then them besides Kerrang! (which is the biggest selling music mag in the United Kingdon).

"Magazines deliberately misrepresent bands to sell issues all the time".

Yes, they do. Even so, they are still the most reliable source for information. Being payed to write gives you a certain credibility (not always, but it does).

"What they give is opinion, not facts".

There's no "impartial" journalism. Even science isn't - and can't - be neutral.

"Bands themselves are also not seen as credible sources for their own genre, as many bands claim to be something they are not".

Yes, sometimes they say some pretty weird stuff. Like a regular Gothic Metal band calling themseves "Ethereal Romantic Windy Transparent" Metal or something like that.

But we're not talking about johnny-come-latelys here. We're talking about Anathema, one of the founding fathers of the genre, and one of the bands that might have coined the term itsself (Gothic Metal).

"With your knowledge of Goth Metal's history, you could be highly helpfull in the rewriting of it".

Thank for your compliment.

201.8.118.109 15:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Notice i said Goth Metal, not Gothic Metal. Gothic Metal started with The Gathering, and more notably Theater of Tragedy.

What your talking about is mostly Doom Death and Gothic Doom bands. Pretty different from Gothic Metal.

However, yew seem to know more about Goth Metal bands than me, as im more experienced with Atmospheric Doom (yes, i learnt of this great division only recently).

Thats why i said dont confuse the two (common misconceptions), and instead engage with me here and we can make progress on improving the Gothic Doom section.

"Notice i said Goth Metal, not Gothic Metal. Gothic Metal started with The Gathering..."

I wouldn't say Always... is the first Gothic Metal record. That's risky. I say that because:

• The only type of vocals present are Death grunts;
• The interplay between guitars is minimum;
• The first time the term "Gothic Metal" was used describing The Gathering's music was when the band released Mandylion, in 1995. That's when Anneke van Giersbergen entered the picture (female voice...).

Furthermore, Paradise Lost's Gothic (1991) is closer to the mark. Although a Doom / Death Metal album, it laid the blueprint for what was to become European Gothic Metal.

"...and more notably Theatre of Tragedy".

Theatre of Tragedy are My Dying Bride rip-offs. Their first truly Gothic Metal album was 1998's Aégis - that's five years than later Icon, the first true Gothic Metal album.

PS: Instead of ripping-off My Dying Bride, in Aégis Theatre of Tragedy try to copy the groundwork that Paradise Lost laid on albums such as the aformentioned Icon and 1995's Draconian Times. It's painfully obvious to hear the PL influence on this period of Theatre of Tragedy's career.

Once again, I hope that helps.

201.50.118.149 16:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

Wrong again. Both of those albums were called Gothic Metal. They were only called Gothic Metal in mass media when the term became the next 'advertising' slogan.

And there is no European Gothic Metal - there is just, Gothic Metal, regardless of nationality. And Paradise Lost have played Doom Death, not Gothic Metal. Again, you sound like your repeating whatever mass media magazines tell you - which is 90 garbage.

And again, they influenced, they didnt originate Gothic Metal. Hence why it says they influenced in the article.

"Wrong again. Both of those albums were called Gothic Metal".

By whom? And where? Again, where's your reference?

"They were only called Gothic Metal in mass media when the term became the next 'advertising' slogan".

I wouldn't call Metal Maniacs, Terrorizer and Rock Brigade "mass media" magazines. I also wouldn't call the xeroxed, black-and-white zines I read "mass media".

On the other hand, Rolling Stone would be a prime example of a mass media magazine - and they don't even like Metal (no wonder I dislike that magazine).

Tell me then: what is a mass media magazine to you?

"And there is no European Gothic Metal - there is just, Gothic Metal, regardless of nationality".

American Gothic metal and European Gothic metal differ greatly. I wouldn't separate them into different genres, but they definately are different.

"And Paradise Lost have played Doom Death, not Gothic Metal".

Calling Paradise Lost Doom Metal is as strange as calling them Death Metal. That simply doesn't paint the whole picture. That's why the Doom / Death Metal tag is so important.

Also, I challenge you to point a single Doom Metal riff on PL's Draconian Times (1995).

"Again, you sound like your repeating whatever mass media magazines tell you - which is 90 garbage".

Again you sound obtuse & oblivious to anybody else's argument. You are really like that Leyasu character.

"And again, they influenced, they didnt originate Gothic Metal. Hence why it says they influenced in the article".

They did originate Gothic Metal and you offered no convincing argument otherwise.

And citing this crappy Wikipedia article is a circular argument.

201.50.63.113 21:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá

The archive links are above yew. Mass media magazines are magazines that are popular. And again, no difference in Gothic Metal - it is what it is, your as bad as that user on the Folk Metal page that tried to 'invent relations' between genres that dont exist.

Cite something that isnt a repeat of the same mass media citation all ready and we may have something to talk about. Also cite a source that hasnt already been discounted. I think youll find youll have a very hard job.

You should read the interviews of the early 1990s. Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride were no pure Doom-Death groups. They're strong influenced by end-1980s Gothic Rock (not early Gothic Punk!) and Dark Wave music. --~Menorrhea 19:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I find it really hard to beleive that deathrock and gothic rock influenced goth metal. First off, the metal and gothic/deathrock subcultures have always been two distinct seperate groups of people. In fact back in the 80's metalheads hated punks and deathrockers, so that theory about how deathrock and goth rock influenced goth metal is dead wrong. Goth metal is nothing more than a mainstream media attempt to label a certain type of metal. They dress all spooky and have a female singer, a la Siouxsie, so they must be part goth, so let's call them 'goth metal'! *rolls eyes* I took the whole entire gothic rock/deathrock part out of the article for the reasons stated above. Also, Samhain was not 'goth metal', they were deathrock/horror punk. Crescentia 03:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, try readin the article. It openly states that Gothic Rock and Gothic Metal have nothing to do with each other. It also explains that Gothic Metal and Goth Metal are different things, and that neither is Female Fronted Metal!

Next time try knowing what ur on about before a blanking a page.

If that is the case then why include it? If gothic rock has nothing to do with gothic metal then why is it there in the first place? Crescentia 15:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, state some sources that list Christian Death and Samhain as influencing gothic metal. If you can find reliable sources it should be kept up. Crescentia 15:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The user you are debating with is a sock of Leyasu, a user who is banned from not only this page, but all of wikipedia. --Wildnox(talk) 22:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

He has too much time on his hands! HA! Crescentia 23:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not gonna comment on whether Leyasu is right or wrong, as that is not my concern, but I'm just concerned that banned users stay banned. --Wildnox(talk) 23:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Leyasu

This talk page is rather confusing to read. I'll just point out that the user:Leyasu is still actively editing this article despite being completely banned from editing on wikipedia. Presenting the many identities of Leyasu ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.152.216.25

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.41.223

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.155.146.226

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.66.36

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.91.34

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.143.33

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.80.240

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.44.28

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.68.251

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.40.247

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.156.159.73

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.143.62

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.65.172

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.42.24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.69.113

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.66.19

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.142.241

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.156.158.118

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.42.120

--Anarchodin 04:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually Leyasu is the reason the article is semi-protected. Many editors know of Leyasu and his continued attempts to evade his ban, most revert his edits on sight.--Wildnox(talk) 04:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Strange article

Many of these doom-death bands such as Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride were influenced by Gothic Rock artists such as Fields Of The Nephilim or Darkwave groups such as Dead Can Dance. They were doom-death-gothic-bands, IMO they were the first gothic metal bands. In the early 90s (1993), we called they Gothic metal, because they were a fusion between metal and goth. --87.122.21.17 23:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the Fields of the Nephilim part. I suggested a while ago that someone research this further, however I dont think my comment was ever addressed because some people think I'm Leyasu. Fred138 02:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The only thing I see as an issue is the lack of references. Without those it could be construed as a personal opinion. Zakneifien 13:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I should say I don't agree about naming the genre because it was a fusion between metal and goth. Neither Fields of the Nephilim or any 80's gothic rock band developed the modern gothic fashion (or goth fashion as well), I think this genre was named after Paradise Lost's second studio album, as well as Funeral Doom Metal is named after Funeral norwegian band. --AnkarayaSamura 23:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Bickerpedia!

One thing that is said for sure is that "Chooing Death: The Improbable History of Death Metal & Grindcore" was able to state clearly that in the post-Death Metal era of 1995-2000, bands such as My Dying Bride and Paradise Lost fused the atmospheric influence of synthesizers ala 1980's Gothic Rock with Doom Metal (which was keeping the energy of death metal at a more gloomy tempo), in most respects, Gothic Metal is a fusion of (extreme) metal (which was influenced by hardcore punk) with Gothic rock (most commonly ala Sisters Of Mercy). Its also pretty enlightening to know that bands like Cradle Of Filth, (in a Post-Black Metal sense) who seemed to abandon the archetypical symphonic-black metal style for an extreme-goth-metal style of their own-- Including covering "Death Comes Ripping" (written by Glenn Danzig during The Misfits/SAMHAIN era) and "No Time To Cry" (by The Sisters Of Mercy).

Anyone who states that there is not a Crossover between goth and metal or even hardcore is in denial

The two have nothing to do with one another. Just because a band covers a horror punk/deathrock sond doesn't make that band gothic rock. At least get your genre labels right.Crescentia 16:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Popularity

Saying Gothic Metal's only fanbase is small and in Europe is genralising and not completely true. Paradise Lost have had a lot of mainstream popularity in Germany and both Lacuna Coil and Type O Negative have gotten MTV airplay. I see Lacuna Coil shirts in Hot Topics all the time.

Symphonic metal!!!

"Netherlands' After Forever and Epica, for instante, make a fusion between the Power and Gothic Metal styles"???? After Forever and Epica are SYMPHONIC METAL, not a "fusion between gothic and power metal"!!!

I think these bands are geared heavily towards gothic metal. If Within Temptation are on the list, then these bands surely should be. WT used growling only in their earlier works, for example, but AF use growls in their current sound. AF are commonly (and accurately) reffered to as gothic metal. 86.41.186.226 02:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you even heard After Forevers new two new CDs? They have really moved away from any thing that can be called Gothic metal. Some of it falls into the Prog metal sides. Just some of it. Then there is 3rd CD which can be put into the Prog metal side.

As for Epica it's just not Gothic Metal. There are songs that they play that just don't have the feel if at all nor do they have they much of the sound. Yes they use growling. But it's only for songs they feel the need to use it in. Truemetalfan April 15, 2007

Within Temptation are both symphonic and gothic metal, but Epica and After Forever aren't. Just beacuse they have growls doesn't mean that they are gothic metal. And their music is certainly not a fusion between gothic and power metal.

I removed this line: "Netherlands' After Forever and Epica, for instance, make a fusion between the Power and Gothic Metal styles<fact>."

I still don't see how WT are gothic metal and AF aren't. I would have thought the growling would have made a big difference to whether a band can be considered gothic metal or not. AF are definitely not power metal but yes, they have become more progressive with their latest albums. Still very much gothic though.213.202.174.87 20:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Becasue there are some Death metal and Black Metals bands that will have a lead female singer and a male using growling. That does not make them Gothic Metal bands. Growling does not = a Gothic Metal band. Truemetalfan July 7, 2007

Is Within Temptation even metal now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ImaginaryVoncroy (talk • contribs) 04:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

"Goth metal"

"Goth metal" is redirecting to the Gothic doom part in this article. Does it make sense? This feels like original research. A quick peek at some google results didn't convince me either (Goth and Gothic seem to be used interchangeably). Goth is just an abbreviation of gothic in my opinion, so I think that Goth metal should redirect to Gothic metal (until good sources can be provided). Any opinions? Emmaneul ^(Talk) 14:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

No opinions? Then I'll change the redirect. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 12:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

True Gothic Metal Bands

There are bands that are actual true Gothic Metal that are not on the list. A perfect example are Via Mistica, How Like a Winter, Lacrimosa, Shroud of Tears and silentium. All these bands contain the darkly Gothic Romance influenced by the gloom of literature of the Gothic Revival period. And some bands on the list are not GOTHIC at all, such as Leaves' Eyes. Leaves' Eyes are a great band but most of there themes predate the Gothic era. Leaves' Eyes are a Nordic Folk Metal Band. Also I think the genre system your using is a little finnicky, if a band is Extreme Gothic Metal, then it is Gothic Metal. Also tagging Cradle of Filth as Black Metal is a little weird, they have only one true black metal album of which was Damnation and a Day. One album out of twelve does not make them Black Metal nor does their use of blackenned growls and shreiks.

Anathema were definitely not gothic

I removed Anathema because they sure were never gothic. yeah its for sure

No sources justifying what you've done, that's for sure. Anathema were probably were the ones coined the term, in the first place. I first hear the expression "gothic metal" on an interview they gave for Terrorizer, back in 1995. Also, tell me that the Eternity, Alternative 4 or Judgement albums aren't goth metal. Musicaindustrial 17:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Alternative 4 it isnt in any way gothic, It maybe slow passed and agonic, but riffs and drums were developed in a progressive way. Betatan 17:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

"Slow passed and agonic"? "Developed in a progressive way"? Thats some strange use of the english language mate.

You mean that these three records were influenced by progressive rock such as Pink Floyd? And what's the problem with that? Tiamat's Wildhoney (1994) is hugely influenced by Pink Floyd, and that doesn't detract it from being a gothic metal classic. Musicaindustrial 21:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I've never seen Anathema as a gothic metal band too. In fact, can anyone compare Anathema's sound before Eternity to any other gothic metal band? It's true that Paradise Lost, along Anathema and My Dying Bride, developed a death/doom metal sound that later would be improved by Paradise Lost and became on gothic metal, but Anathema's sound was much doomish than gothic. The Silent Enigma has so many dark and gothic atmospheres, but the guitars sound and rhythms are more related to 90's doom metal than gothic metal. AnkarayaSamura 21:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

What about alternative title Grufti Metal?

In Germany Goths are called Grufties and some metal fans use the title Grufti instead of Goth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 23:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Original research in this Article

I think there's a lot of original research in this article.

see for example: "Gothic metal is commonly characterized lyrically by either one of two distinct characteristics: dual vocalists, growls and female vocals ("Beauty and the Beast"), or a single vocalist with an operatic tone.

I disagree, this definition though not necessarilly completely wrong is not completely true either. Gothic metal can't be reduced to this definition. I mean bands like Paradise Lost, Type O Negative, Moonspell, Lacrima Profundere are not particularly characterized by "Beauty and the Beast" vocals or operatic ocals. This the first misconception about gothic: Use of "Beauty and the Beast" is not necessarilly gothic even though Gothic metal popularized such vocals. Also Gothic metal doesn't necessarilly mean "Female fronted metal".

There may be full male vocalists in goth metal There may be non-gothic bands that use "Beauty and the Beast" such as Epic, symphonic metal or Avant-garde metal.

Epic Bands Like Battlelore or avant garde metal bands like Ram-zet, Pecatum or Unexpect are characterized by "Beauty and the Beast" vocals and they are not gothic. Even though they are influenced by gothic metal.

Also classifiying bands like Epica, After Forever or Nightwish like gothic is extremely debatable. Even though people often tend to classify them as Gothic. They are just symphonic meta. Just because a band is female fronted doesn't necessarilly means it is goth.

Historicaly goth metal was first associated with original gothic music influenced bands like Theatre of Tragedy, Paradise Lost, Type O Negative, Moonspell or Tristania. As this article explains [1].

Only metal bands which are directly influenced by original gothic music ( 80s music) can be called true gothic metal. Now bands like Epica don't particularly draw ispiration from original goth rock bands or even ethereal goth music. Epica or After forever while inpired by Beauty and the beast music are rather influenced by symphonic music. Now I'm not saying AF or Epica should be removed as they popularly assoicated with goth in the wide popular conception. But at least I guess it would be useful to mention the different conceptions of what goth metal is supposed to be. Instead of only relying to the popular and often misconceived conception ie: Female fronted metal= Goth. Because this view is extremely debatable in the strict original conception of goth metal.

The part concerning the different subgenres or fusion, while being interesting and a nice attempt to take in account the different tendencies of Goth metal is mostly original research.

Besides Dark metal is classified as a subgenre of Gothic metal. But this is debatable. Note that the article: Dark metal has been deleted as being original research. see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dark metal

(Sorry for my poor English, this is not my mother's tongue)

Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 19:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

If you read the article carefully, you will notice that Nightwish hasn't been called goth metal anywhere...

As about after forever and epica, I personally disagree with calling them any kid of goth but most internet sources cite them as symphonic/gothic metal.(look in the metal arhives for example).

The beauty and the beast vocals are most often associated with goth metal.Yeah it is NOT necessary to have male and female vocalist to be goth metal.Or that if you use female (and male) vocals your goth metal.So if you want you could edit the article and write it in it.

As about the subgenres section - yeah I agree it is mostly original research.I personally have helped the development of this section trying to place the most accurate information.

As about dark metal.As you can see in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dark metal even the guy who nominated the article agrees that this style exists.But it was reached a consensus and the article was deleted because there are not enough sources and information for this genre to have its own article.

I see you know goth metal, so you can help the article by finding information and add references to other sites which would actually state that what is written here is the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xr 1 (talk • contribs) 20:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

If you read the article carefully, you will notice that Nightwish hasn't been called goth metal anywhere...

Yeah, thanks, but don't worry, I knew that, In fact there's some kind of a misunderstanding here. My fault, I wasn't clear enough: I didn't mean to say Nightwish was called gothic here in the article itself. I was just refering to a more general frequent misconception concerning those bands among fans.

As about after forever and epica, I personally disagree with calling them any kid of goth but most internet sources cite them as symphonic/gothic metal.(look in the metal arhives for example).

Yes, Neither do I, as you have probably noticed. But you know even though I tend to disagree because such bands don't really draw any original gothic influences. One can't go against popular use of terms even if they are misconceptions. So I guess we have to in account this coneption, but specify some other purist conception would reject such an approch.

I mean, it's bit like the popular use of a word like "Schizophrenia", the popular use of it has mistaken it with the dissociative identity disorder. Whereas in a strict orignal sense "Schizophrenia" has nothing to do with such a disorder. But you can't do anything about it. When popular use seizes a term, even unproperly,it seems there's nothing you can do about it but to take it in account.

As about dark metal.As you can see in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dark metal even the guy who nominated the article agrees that this style exists.But it was reached a consensus and the article was deleted because there are not enough sources and information for this genre to have its own article.

There's also a misunderstanding here. I know that the term dark metal per se does exist. I heard about it countless times and even certain bands like Agallosh classify themselves as such. But this is an unformal and subjective term which isn't really related to some clearly defined aesthetic. This is why there are no official sources which can support this existence of such a genre. But if it is supposed to be a mix of Goth, doom and Black, then bands like Tristania should be considered as Dark metal as they are influenced by three genres. Yet noone calls Tristania Dark metal but goth metal.

I see you know goth metal, so you can help the article by finding information and add references to other sites which would actually state that what is written here is the truth.

Thanks for the invitation. I would gladly contribute to it. But until now, I was kind of unconfortable with the idea of editing this article because of several things:

1. My english sucks, so I can't write long sentences without making many syntax errors. Sometimes parts would need to be clarified and need more extensive specifications to dismiss potential confusions. But I'm not sure I can write such long parts without including many faults. YEah I sure know some other users might help out, but the other problem is:

2. There are too many misconceptions and confusions or different conceptions concerning the subject.And not sufficient serious official sources to dismiss or clarify them properly. Without mentioning sources that are not coherent with each other. All of this made me fear this might lead to exhausting, unresolvable, endless controversies with editors. Because there are dfferent conceptions of goth and not enough authority sources to clarify the issue. Plus many people in the metal world are unfamiliar with original 80s goth music and so they are sometimes mistaken with the sometime simplist popular conceptions like goth=chick or goth = melodic epic.

But anyway, I'm quite tempted to help out if I can...

On the side note, I am one of the mod of Goth metal.net. But even the site itself which would be supposed to be a reference of the genre is frequently confused as to what bands are really goth or not.The staff decided to adopt the implict policy as to consider as goth metal any melodic metal band which includes a chick as a singer. which had reinforces many confusions in the web, since it is suposed to be a reference.And I also noticed many labels, record compagnies and other promotional stuffs that work with the goth metal staff for the online radio also reinforce the confusions.

Another side note, I have an encyclopedia of metal, which partially deals with gothic metal. Could be of some use even there are not much about it which clearly defines the genre and clarify confusions. Actually they deal with it in a very wide chapter including Symphonic and prog metal as well(yeah prog as well, weird...anyway). Whereas other subgenres (such as Black, thrash or heavy) had their own sections and the authors confortable to deal with them extensively, with this very chapter it feels like the authors were quite embarassed and less familliar in dealing with these 3 genres, as if they weren't too sure where to put a clear borderline between symphonic metal and gothic metal so they decided to put everything in that same chapter...

GreetingsFrédérick Duhautpas (talk) 23:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yesterday I found some sources about the gothic metal charactertstrics, vocal system and relegion themes :] But I didn't find anything about its subgenres.I think until someone finds something about them the section should be kept like it is now. As about dark metal.Yeah it doesn't have an article but I think it has to be mentioned somewhere...and since it is a combination of goth,black,doom...well Tristania draws influenced from the other too, but bands like Shade Empire and Graveworm (I really like both bands) are really mixing things up.(in the album "Synthetic",for example, shade empire has made use of industrial music,keyboard-driven sound, black metal riffs and gloomy/goth atmosphere) However there must be a discussion before removing dark metal from the subgenres list. Look, I'm not a native speaker too, but this doesn't mean I can't edit here.When I made some gramatical errors while editing an article, a native speaker would remove them :] Xr 1 (talk) 08:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Look, I don't doubt you're trying to do a good job. And your stuff is interesting and a nice attempt to clarify things. But this original research thing kind of bothers me. As far as I know there are no official subgenres of Gothic metal. Don't misunderstand me, I sure agree there are different tendencies in gothmetal. As a matter of fact anyone familliar with this music can notice different tendencies. I know this is what you're trying to clarify. But this is a personal essay.

Anyway if you think we should keep it...Fine..I won't try to change your stuff. But normally when something is original research, it has to be deleted simply.

Plus, it's interesting but there's a problem in your classification. You deal with doom-goth as a fusion genre. Yes somehow it is a cross genre, it uses Doom death structures fused with influences from gothic ethereal (dark)wave. But at the same time, historicaly in the 90s this fusion WAS precisely called gothic metal, what you call doom-goth IS actually one of the oldest form of gothic metal. Now ain't it paradoxical that you deal it as not being a fully gothic metal genre but just as a cross genre. As if only one part of it was goth metal?

And what's the difference with doom-goth and Scandivian goth? Theatre of Tragedy is Scandinavian yet their earlier release were all rooted in doom-goth. Historically bands like Tristania, Trail of Tears were just following Theatre of Tragedy in their aesthetic approch even though they added Black influences. The same goes with the Sins of thy Beloved, they're not only into doom and Goth, they implied references to Black metal just like Tristania.

And in which category do you think you would classify bands like Type O Negative, Tiamat, Crematory, Moonspell, Lacrima Profundere, (Late) Paradise Lost, On Thorns I lay or Lacuna coil in your theory? Bands like Moonspell for example are always making variations on their stylistic approch...

The thing about Dark metal is bothering as well, as it's like you don't really respect the vote of deletion. And you try to reinsert behind their back debatable material which doesn't belong to a wiki article. You say Dark metal is a mix of Black, goth and doom, ok, but I'd like to see some serious sources which state that. I never heard such a definition. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 23:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

• You have got me wrong.I haven't made the section about the subgenres of goth metal.I have just edited it recently, because I've saw something that bothered me.Scandinavian gothic, Gothic-doom, symphonic gothic - I haven't add these subgenres.I have just got rid of some mistakes and repeating in the page.

Yes, most of this is an original research/essay format.However I thought it gave useful information, so I just contributed for developing the section.But I haven't created it.This is not my merit.

• Gothic-doom is doom metal that uses traits from goth metal.So doom-gothic in it's definition is not the oldest form of gothic metal

Yeah, I know that historically the genre Gothic Metal have developed from death-doom and goth rock.But this is different.Gothic-doom bands use much more doom traits and depression than usual gothic metal.Yes early Theatre of Tragedy and early Paradise Lost are sometimes called gothic-doom, because of the use of both goth and doom traits, but they use death metal as well.And doom is not the dominant side.As about gothic-doom bands,like Draconian for example, take inspiration equally from doom metal and gothic metal.

• Dark metal.Well the only "official source" is in doom-metal.com, and there the style is called combination of black,doom and darkwave.

Extreme metal and goth music.You know to what this resembles.And actually the bands use inspiration from gothic metal as well.

• But If this whole "subgenre section" bothers you because it's an original research, you have the free will to remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xr 1 (talk • contribs) 08:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Original research in this Article (part 2)

But If this whole "subgenre section" bothers you because it's an original research, you have the free will to remove it.

Yes sure I have the free will to edit it. But I prefer consensus than taking arbitrary decision if you know what I mean. I'm not here to create conflict. Now didn't you express the will to keep this part as it is now?

"I think until someone finds something about them the section should be kept like it is now."

So I just tried to discuss with you about it, to find some compromise. and consensus.

Frankely speaking I don't know if the whole part should be deleted or not. I'm actually more concerned with parts that seem to me inconsistent.

On a side note, I've recently found a book called "Carnets Noirs" which deals extensively with gothic music including Gothic metal. And it considers as gothic, bands coming mostly from Doom metal and including original gothic music influences: Bands such as Type O Negative, Moonspell,Theatre of Tragedy, Tristania, Tiamat, the Sins Of Thy Beloved, Paradise Lost and even Anathema (Yes). While they aknowledge some of these bands come from doom, or Death doom and sometimes Black metal music, these bands are not classified just as gothic metal. Oh, and bands like Cradle of Filth are indeed considered as a form of extreme gothic. This is the first publication I found which aknowledges it. Which is much more sensible than consider them as black metal. As anyone which is familiar with real black knows COF isn't black. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 21:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I know, there are no official statemants and sources about differents types of gothic metal.But I assumed it would be better if I keep the questioned part, because I felt like it.Allthough iI've removed some mistakes.I saw you wanted a counsensus.But as I see now the article is completely rewritten.And the sectionn about subgenres is gone, as well as most of information, about the characteristics of this subgenre,to which I've found reliable sources. However I think now the article is better.Way better.But I surely think the part I've found sources about should be placed back. Also the whole part about gothic-doom now is gone. it should be mentioned more about it. Xr 1 (talk) 17:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

What a horrible article

There are so many things wrong with this article. Misinformation. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 20:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Please, could you have a little more constructive approach of criticism? May I suggest you to develop?

For example, May I ask you to expose each point you think should be corrected.

And we'll see if this article is that horrible . Thanks in advance. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 21:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Blizzard is right though (82.35.191.192 (talk) 20:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC))

Look, it doesn't really matter what you or Blizzard think of this article as long as both of you are incapable to explain exactly why it is that"horrible". On a side note, I'm not the author of this article. I just try to find constructive ways to fix it. so please consider the option of making more useful and constructive comments. For example how about developping and explaining what's wrong? Personally, I think there are indeed things wrong in this article. But to fix them, we need verifiable sources and consensus to upgrade this article. Free criticism based only on value judgment without any rational evidence to support such a claim is completely unconstructive and useless. So instead of saying useless comments like "blabla this article sucks" or "bla bla I agree...", care to explain precisely what's wrong. We'll try to discuss and see what can be done to to fix problems. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 20:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Can gothic metal be considered as a part of the gothic culture?

I am inviting editors here to come and discuss on this topic. Please don't initiate discussion on the topic here, and redirect your comments there if you have one. Thank you, — Save_Us † 02:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

My complete rewrite of the article

I have been quietly rewriting this article for the past several days. I had not made any changes to the article though until today because I've been doing the rewrite on my personal sandbox. I agree with the negative sentiments expressed by many before me on this talk page on the quality of the article. It simply stinked of original research, something that belongs on a fan website or an online forum rather than an encyclopedia. I did not saw anything worth salvaging and so I started completely afresh. I did try my best to reflect some of the information on the version I replaced. For instance, I included King Diamond as a precursor to gothic metal even though I was not really convinced of his importance to the subsequent development of the genre since - as far as I know - the only thing gothic about his music are his lyrics. On the other hand, I was not able to include some information that I know to be true from my own personal knowledge. For instance, I think it is pretty damn obvious that The Sins Of Thy Beloved predates Draconian with their blend of the gothic and doom but surprisingly, I found no reliable source on the internet that I could use as a reference. The reason why I mention this is because I'd like to emphasize the point that my revision does not consist of original research. Every point made, almost every sentence written, is referenced with a citation. Every information is verifiable. That's how an article on wikipedia should be written. I hope that subsequent contributions to this article continues from that perspective. A couple of other tangents that I'd like to make:

• I am quite disappointed to see many gothic metal fans obviously ignorant of the genre's history. There are people who do not see the connection between goth rock and goth metal. There are people who do not see the connection between the gothic doom/death pioneers and the later female fronted bands. I personally find this rather annoying. The connection exist. From Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, The Fields of Nephilim and Dead Can Dance we get Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, The Gathering and Type O Negative and from there, we get Lacuna Coil, Within Temptation, Moonspell and yes, even Epica and After Forever. Read the article and the sources.
• I'm aware that the section on musical characteristics is painfully short. By all means, please expand it if you can. I did not include any information on the lyrical themes in gothic metal. If you can do so with reliable sources as references, then please proceed as well.

There are a lot of stuff from the version I replaced that are not in my rewrite and that's because I saw them as original research. Again, if you have reliable sources that can be cited as references, then by all means add those information. --Bardin (talk) 16:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice job, there are good parts. And really nice sources. However I still think the part about "the goth goes symphonic" is wrong, or more exactly misguiding for the reader. Maybe it is not intended but it reads as if you implied that symphonic metal bands like Therion, Nightwish, Haggard were also gothic. Which is completely wrong. Therion, Nightwish, Haggard have nothing to do with gothic metal. Yes symphonic metal borrowed "gothic overtones", they were influenced by it, no doubt about this, but it doesn't mean symphonic is the same thing as gothic metal. This is a misconception. The part concerning symphonic metal belongs to symphonic metal article not to gothic metal. Now voluntary or not, this is what your part seems to suggest. And I strongly disagree.

Yeah, sure, there are a lot a of sources...but I fail to see any source stating that symphonic metal = gothic.Perhaps this is not intended, but it sure will feed the general confusion between symphonic and gothic metal. I'm sorry, I have countless sources which clearly state that Nightwish, Therion, Haggard and even After Forever and Epica are not goth. (I can source that). Even AF and Epica themselves are extremely prudent about being called "gothic".

Oh and concerning Epica "having subsequently dropped the gothic edge", I'm sorry but the source doesn't support your claim. No. Simone didn't say they dropped their gothic edge, she simply said she doesn't really consider their music gothic, but rather as symphonic metal. She seems to be aware about what gothic is supposed to be and so she is obviously prudent about this term. She also seems to be aware of the frequent generalisation/misconception of the gothic term and the fact many people tend to call gothic anything with a chick.

"This is a question I get a lot these days. Nowadays gothic seems to have become a word to generalize metal music with female vocals. It is hard to describe, a lot of people think we are a gothic metal band, but when we played at real gothic festivals we were the odd one out. I would like to describe Epica as symphonic metal with female voices."

I have to insist that not every Female fronted band is gothic. As even your own sources note:

"The gothic tag has unfairly dogged some groups. "It's often misinterpreted," notes Kristine. "Not every band with female vocals is a gothic band." Case in point: the classic metal sound of After Forever, with Floor Jansen's powerful pipes." ([2])

And this is Liv Kristine herself, the icon and one of the pionners of gothic metal who says that....

This is here the main problem concerning the defintion of gothic metal: On one hand you have people who consider gothic metal only metal inspired by gothic music whereas on the other hand you have people -often ignoring what original goth music was-, that call any female fronted band gothic no matter it has no connection with original gothic music. The later definition being unfortunately the most frequent, this version just reinforces this frequent misconception.

Oh and the length of the musical characteristics part is not that bothering, however what is bothering is the fact it feeds the same misconceptions about gothic metal. Anyone who thinks Nightwish his goth has never heard real gothic music. Bands like Nightwish, Epica, Therion didn't get influences from gothrock bands such as Sisters of Mercy, Fields of Nephilim, Christian Death, the Mission, Joy division or ethereal darkwave like Dead can dance. BUt real goth metal bands like Paradise Lost Type O negative, Moonspell, Theatre of Tragedy, Tristania do have these original gothic roots. Here's the difference. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 19:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh btw, I think you shouldn't rely too much on allmusicguide.com because they often say a lot of crap. Can be useful but frankely speaking it really can't be regarded as a reliable source in terms of stylistic definition. On The other hand your references to publications and articles are great. Nice job on that. I'll add some more when I'll have time Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 19:12, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you on both points. I do not like to allmusic.com too much but there are not a lot of other reliable sources out there on music genres like gothic metal. I tried to use allmusic.com mostly for non-contentious points. The metal archives is not a reliable source. Every information submitted there is from anonymous fans. Not sure why you felt it is needed as a reference for TSOTB's date of origin since the rockdetector article already provides that info. I made a couple of mistakes in that passage there regarding Trail of Tear's year of formation and the year of release for the three band's debut album. Kudos for spotting that.

I also agree with you that bands like Therion and After Forever are not gothic metal. I suppose you're right that even though there's no mention of them as gothic metal anywhere in the article, that it would be misleading to insert them into the main body of the article. So I've transferred that entire passage into a new section under the heading of related styles. Ditto for the passage on Haggard. I've also removed Nightwish from the passage in musical characteristics even though there is a reference mentioned in the article that indicate they can be described as gothic metal. I have also changed the sentence concerning the Epica point you made.

On a side note, I've noticed that you tend to mark all your edits as minor. They are not minor and you should avoid marking them as such. Minor edits cover "only superficial differences [that] exist between the current and previous version: typo corrections, formatting and presentational changes, rearranging of text without modifying content, et cetera." Adding in reference sources does not really count nor is the wholesale inclusion of text that you brought into this talk page. These are not minor edits and should not be marked as such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Minor_edit

Just to let you know. --Bardin (talk) 02:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to point out a long with --98.224.211.86 (talk) 00:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)Frederick that many metal band with lead female singers fall into different ares of Metal. Some Exmpales Ededbridge, Visions of Atlantis, and Seraphim are Power metal bands. Ever thing in there style of playing points to it. The guitars the drums even the keybroads and the fact that sometimes the lryics are well some what cheese ball.

Next would be To-Mera and Stream of Passion. To-Mera is Prog Metal prue and simple. There is no way around they do everthing that can be found in Prog Metal. odd time signatures, complex song forms and even the hints of Jazz in there music.

Next is Arch Enemy which is Melodic Death Metal. The whole Gothic Metal tag was placed on metal bands with lead female singers because for some reason or another some metal heads can't or don't want to have them placed in there genre of music. Becuase heaven forbid a woman sings in a Power Metal band or a Prog metal band. Heck well I don't really think of After Forever and Epica as Prog metal they are adding bits of that into there music. Sure After Forever was somewhat Gothic on there first CD. But after that they really stepped away from that.

I feel that before we start just listing Nightwish, Epica, and After Forever as Gothic metal bands there style should really be looked at because Nightwish for exmpale falls right in with Power Metal. I know Tuomas Holopainen won't say that but when you are having ever thing go really fast with the guitars and the drums and even write and name a whole CD Wishmaster there is not much else they can be listed as. The later work still has elements of Power Metal but became more Symphonic the the relam of the Trans-Siberian Orchestra.

Heck I will even say it Epica and After Forever are getting more of there Influences from Power Metal, Prog Metal, and Death Metal bands and prehaps a few Black Metal Bands. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 00:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to point out one thing. Epica has a song on there new CD called Death of Dream that some call standered Gothic Metal. That is false. If you take Simone and the choir out what you have is your standered Death Metal song. And seeing as how Mark really enjoys bands such as Death, and God Dethroned. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 00:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Last thing I'm going to add. The other thing that has to be remembered is that if we take lest say Epica. In many of there songs from TPA and TDC they are using elements that are found and started in Black Metal those elements being blast beats. Last I checked Goth Rock bands were not using blast beats nor were they using double bass drums something Epica, After Forever, and Nightwish. Also those bands take Influence from Hans Zimmer and really from nothing but other metal bands. Which is way the whole Goth Goes Symphonic makes no sense. Also if you look at bands that are doing that in the metal world it's band such as Kamelot, Blind Guardian, Ayreon, Symphony X, Rhapsody of Fire, Dimmu Borgir, Emperor, Avantasia, Hell Rhapsody of Fire got a 70 piece orchestra for there album Triumph of Agony. The band Edenbridge for there new CD is using a whole orchestra.

Symphonic metal is not Goth or Gothic at all. I mean Symphony X has been using elements of that sound for for years so unless all those band are know part of the Gothic Metal sound it really does need to be redone better because as it stands it just does not work at all. --Turemetalfan (talk) 04:07, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Symphonic metal might not be gothic but there's a relationship between gothic metal and some symphonic metal acts. That relationship is set out in the relevant passage in the article. Take a look at it and read the sources. You've got a member of Nightwish describing their music as symphonic gothic metal. You've got a member of Epica describing their music as a combination of gothic and power metal. Both interviews were in the presence of other band members, mind you. Garry Sharpe-Young of Rockdetector.com tags both Nightwish and Epica as a gothic metal band. Reviews after reviews from countless websites including AMG tags them as gothic metal too. Maybe you think you know better than all of these individuals. Maybe you think you know the band's music better than the band members themselves. Fine. Whatever. It doesn't matter to me. But here I am, trying to rewrite the article to good standard. I've got all that information before me. Do you want me to ignore all that information and instead rely on the opinion of some anonymous person on wikipedia whose reliability I do not know of? You might not like the harsh, brutal truth but your opinion simply doesn't count. It's worth nothing. Neither is my opinion. I don't think Nightwish or Epica are gothic metal bands either but I'm not going to change the article to selfishly reflects my own viewpoints.

I feel that I have achieved a nice compromise in the article for both those who think they are gothic metal and those who think they are otherwise. I placed the entire section on symphonic metal as a related style rather a subgenre. I even mentioned that After Forever has moved away from gothic metal while Epica prefers to be known simply as symphonic metal. If you wish to expand further, by all means do so but please use reliable sources and not your own personal knowledge and opinions.

I'm not saying my rewrite is perfect. I'm still working on it myself. But if you wish to talk about content, I'd much rather be guided by reliable sources than your anonymous individuals like yourself. --Bardin (talk) 06:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Also as I have pointed out many of the band that are playing Symphonic Metal are Power Metal, Prog Metal, Death Metal, Black Metal, etc. Also many of the so called Gothic Metal band ie Nightwish are nothing more then Power Metal bands. It also does not take inacount the bands such as Visions of Atlantis and Serphim which has Influence from Nightwish are nothing more then Power Metal bands.

Like Frédérick Duhautpas pointed out almost all the bands with lead female singers are called Gothic Metal even though the styles they are playing are more Prog Metal, Power Metal, Death and even Black Metal. Female lead signers don't = Gothic Metal nor dose it = Goth Rock. Unless you want to call. Also metal bands have been using the Symphonic sound for years. On top of if you want to call metal bands with Lead female singers Gothic Metal what does that make the early Metal bands in the 80's that had Lead female singers? Also most of the reviews don't like to call them Power Metal, Prog Metal, etc because they feel women should not play Metal music. So they throw the Gothic Tag on them. The same thing is being done with To-Mera they are Prog Metal yet the reviews want to list them as Gothic Metal and clones of Launca Coil even though last I checked LC was not using Jazz music in there sound. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 11:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I will point out one last thing. Ever new metal band with a lead Female Singer that comes out is being slaped with the Goth Tag. Even though they are not playing Goth Metl. Arch Enemy has had it done to them and they have been around a very long time and never even started with a female lead. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 11:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

You can point out as many things as you want but I really do not see what you're trying to achieve here. Who are you trying to convince? In the first place, I do not see anything in the article that indicates all metal bands with a female singers are gothic metal bands. You're really barking up the wrong tree here if you think that's the reason why Nightwish, Epica and After Forever are mentioned in the article. Secondly, I have already mentioned that your opinion does not matter. This is wikipedia. Not an online forum. You need reliable sources as references for support. No original research here. Your ridiculous implication that reviewers tag bands with a female singer as gothic because they are all sexist is a fine example of original research.--Bardin (talk) 12:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

PleaseUser talk:98.224.211.86, even if we share similar views, may I ask you to argue without implying me in your own fight with Bardin to make your point. Even though I find some things debatable, I also think Bardin made a really good job. Plus he is a sensitive guy who's not deaf to constructive criticism. Only for that he deserves respect. Moreover he made a good compromise concerning Symphonic metal. Even though I'm not completely satisfied and I disagree with the fact Nightwish and Epica have anything gothic to them. The thing is you(User talk:98.224.211.86) just can't dismiss the fact the notion of gothic metal has been blurred today. The term is unfortunately used most often as a synonymous to female Fronted metal. There's nothing you can do against popular use. Purists like me don't consider bands like Nightwish or Epica as gothic metal, but unfortunately the general popular use does. It just can't be ignored. Even records labels( ie. publishing goth compilations), use the label for commercial purposes . Also many reviewers and many metal fans use this term this way. I disagree but there's nothing you can do against such a massive misuse of the term.

Oh, Sharpe Young is not a specialist or an authority of gothic metal, he's a specialist of old heavy metal like Black Sabbath or Ozzy. But, anyway he's a respected reviewer and he can be used as an authority in wikipedia. And I somehow agree with Bardin on that, no matter he might be wrong, publications and reviews from a professional always prevail over fans opinion in terms of verifiability. That's the way wikipedia works.There's nothing you can do about this but provide other authoritative sources(publications) which nuance or contradict his views.

I also have sources to fix certain things. I'll will deal about that, when I'll have more time.

On the other hand, guys, please may I ask you to observe wikipedia codes of civility? Because we have certain disagreements doesn't mean we should let the offensive comments start to fly (i.e. "Your ridiculous...", etc...).Thanks for the comprehension.Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 14:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I was being offensive. I think I've been fairly cordial if a tad formal. I imagine most people would agree that it is ridiculous to claim that reviewers tag female fronted bands as gothic because the reviewers are sexist. If someone can convince me otherwise, then I will humbly apologise. Be that as it may, you're quite correct that while purists like you and I do not consider Nightwish, Epica or Evanescence as gothic metal, the popular crowd do. After your criticism, I did what I thought was the best compromise in leaving the bands still mentioned in the article but in a separate section. I do not think wikipedia is a platform to resolve issues like this. As an encyclopedia, it is a platform to cover and address the issues but we are in no position to make an authoritative statement that so-and-so is not a gothic metal band. We can do as I did and add sources making that kind of authoritative statements. That is all we can do. If you can improve the article further, please do not hesitate. I look forward to more constructive criticism and contributions. --Bardin (talk) 14:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Bardin if you would look at most of the bands that are being listed they are all have a lead female singer. If that is not labeling them then I don't know what is. I'm also trying to point out the fact that Symphonic metal was not started as with Gothic Metal. In fact it has been used by bands such as Savatage, Rhapsody of Fire and Symphony X are where that's coming from and where Nightwish, Epica, After Forever and many of the other bands are getting the sound from. As it reads it reading as if Symphonic Metal was started because of Gothic Metal and that just not the case at all and it kicks out a lot of bands that paved the way for what the sound is which is not that Gothic. Black Metal and Power Metal have done more for Symphonic Metal then Gothic.

As it stands it still is reading in much the wrong way and saying things that just right there. Which by the way I have not been rude to you at all and I would take kindly that you don't be rude to me. If you are going to be rude to me then don't talk to me simple as that.--98.224.211.86 (talk) 22:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I've changed the opening line in the symphonic metal section from "the early contributions of Haggard and Therion has spawned an offshoot known as symphonic metal" to "the early contributions of Haggard and Therion has led to a crossover between gothic metal and symphonic metal." I hope this is satisfactory to you. As far as being rude to you, I do not believe I have been so. I think it is ridiculous for you to assert that bands are labelled gothic because the reviewers are sexist. That is an outlandish claim with no support of any kind and I have no qualms at pointing it out. If you do not like me using the word ridiculous, then I strongly suggest that you do not put forward any more ridiculous claims.--Bardin (talk) 01:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Lyrics

Let's start with goth rock, shall we? Goth rock came from blending (post-)punk with dark image, introverted mood and mostly - gothic fiction (or gothic horror, gothic novel ).And this is most clearly shown by song lyrics and the poetry of the goth subculture. And then Paradise Lost, Theatre of Tragedy, Tristania were inspired by goth rock, by its feeling and themes for gloomy romance and horror, taken from the gothic novel. So it is logical to say that the lyrical content of gothic metal was influenced by gothic fiction.And it's not quite right that "The gothic horror theme can be found among bands that blend gothic metal with extreme black metal music" Because gothic fiction hasn't inspired only the extreme gothic metal bands.Yeah, they rely mostly on the horror side, however gothic novel is tragic romantic as well : " The Gothic novel took shape mostly in England from 1790 to 1830 and falls within the category of Romantic literature" ; "The plot itself mirrors the ruined world in its dealings with a protagonist's fall from grace as she succumbs to temptation from a villain. In the end, the protagonist must be saved through a reunion with a loved one." [3]

What's your point? I really do not understand why you're busy writing paragraphs after paragraphs here in the talk page about all this. Do I really need to repeat the point about original research and reliable sources? If you can find something on the internet that specifically describes those bands as being influenced lyrically by gothic fiction, then go on right ahead and use it in the article.--Bardin (talk) 01:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure your intention was to write that the bands that blend... use horror themed lyrics, inspired by gothic fiction.However the way you've written it might have caused a bit of a misunderstandig, because the gothic novel has romantic side as well and because it was coming out that only the extreme gothic bands are influenced by the gothic fiction which isn't said anywhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xr 1 (talk • contribs) 13:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I was not able to find any reliable source about any band being influenced by non-horror gothic fiction. I've found sources indicating some bands have been influenced by horror literature and I've found sources indicating some other bands have been influenced by undefined term "romance" with neither the word gothic nor literature found anywhere close to the use of the word "romance." So I did what I could do with the limited sources that I found. Once again, if you can find any reliable sources out there that describes one or more gothic metal band as being influenced by non-horror gothic fiction, then please add it in. If you do not want to edit the article yourself, you can just put up the web links here and I'll do the rest. Interviews or professional reviews that you have come across. I really do like to see this article improved even further and if you can provide sources that I've somehow missed, then please let me know. --Bardin (talk) 13:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

You haven't found anything about non-horror gothic fiction because all the gothic fiction has horror elements.But this doesn't mean that all bands influenced by gothic literature should have horror-themed lyrics. (or that only the bands with horror lyrics like the extreme ones are influenced by this type of literature) May be you should use the sources to write something like " gothic metal bands are lyrically influenced by horror and romance, themes found in the gothic novel."

• I've searched and the only thing I've found was an interview with Gokhan from Catafalque (Turkish gothic metal band):

“[...] I am writing the most of the lyrics. My main sources of inspiration are generally Gothic Literature [...] all our lyrics are like short stories about gothic tales, sorrow, melancholy, pain and dark, deadly love. “ [4] Xr 1 (talk) 13:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I did came across that interview but for whatever reason, there's no page for Catafalque on wikipedia. Even if there was, I don't think a fairly obscure band like them would be an appropriate example to use. As per your request though, I've made some changes to the lyrics section of the article although I did not used the phrasing you suggested. Take a look at it and let me know what you think. --Bardin (talk) 15:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it is good. The guy from Tristania has said it - "the basic tragic romance thing - it's what the gothic rock and gothic scene has always been about." But why they are about this?Because goth rock was created by blending post-punk with the typical atmosphere found in the gothic literature (that's why it is called gothic). Also it is logical to connect the things for misery, death and lost love with the gothic novel. Xr 1 (talk) 20:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Chronological

Shouldn't The Sisters of Mercy (formed 1980) be up near the top of this article, rather than bands who formed in 1988?--andreasegde (talk) 14:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Not unless you can find any evidence that The Sisters of Mercy were a gothic metal band during the 1980s instead of a gothic rock band. --Bardin (talk) 14:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Their 1990 album "Vision Thing" indeed mixed their gothic sound with traditional heavy metal sound. It was strongly criticized by goth scene for that. But well, I wouldn't consider this album as "gothic metal" in the modern sense. Because the term gothic metal generally refers to some harsher music with extreme metal roots (including Moonspell, :Theatre of Tragedy, Paradise Lost, Type O Negative. I got sources for that, the book Carnets Noirs in the chapter "Gothic metal" by Stephane leguay p.211 mentions the Sisters OF Mercy's vision Thing album as one of the rare early examples where Gothic rock meets metal, but the book doesn't particularly says this album is gothic metal. But note it just says that was one of the rare early exceptions where Gothic rock meets metal. As it is sourced I guess it is worth mentioned in the article. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 11:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Xr 1

I see you like blanking your discussion page so I'm bringing this up here instead. Is English your native language because the sentence on rockdetector.com - "Assuredly, Gothic catalysed the genre that would follow in its wake, the album’s authority spawning legions of imitators." - does not lend itself well to your interpretation. There's no evidence or indication here that the band "pushed" the term through the metal scene. Nor is there any evidence or indication that this album created gothic metal. In the first place, neither the sentence nor the previous sentences before it indicate that the genre mentioned is gothic. It could very well be doom/death instead. Secondly, catalysed is not synonymous with created. It could mean to initiate, bring about, transform, modify or increase the rate of change. The use of the word cataylsed is not an indication that Garry Sharpe-Young of rockdetector.com is crediting the Gothic album as specifically creating the gothic metal genre.
Is the stuff already written about Paradise Lost simply not enough? They are already credited as one of the main pioneer of the genre. They get the very first slot in the origins section, the very first band identified in the article as gothic metal. Anyone reading it would realize their importance to the genre. Your sentence is not only inaccurate but unnecessary. There's really no need to predate their creation of gothic metal to an earlier album or to create an arbitrary point of origin for the genre. --Bardin (talk) 23:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the stuff written about Paradise Lost in this article is simply NOT enough.Look, they are the first gothic metal band and avout them are written..well 5-6 sentences. Look, with GOTHIC starts everything.Not only the name, the SOUND of the album is defining!So it must be mentioned! I know it's not written "pushed through the metal scene" but, hello, has any other band called their style gothic before, or titled it's albums or even talked about gothic?? The genre that has followed cannot be anything but gothic metal - anyone familiar with the band's history knows that. So catalyzed means to bring about, initiate.To bring about can mean to cause to occur or exist; initiate means to begin, set going, or originate.So you could assume that it was said "with this album the band has originated (created) the genre that followed."[5]). and the genre that followed is logically - gothic metal.However if you do not like this source, please find other, because you cannot just miss "Gothic" - not only a classic, but the first album that could be labelled as gothic metal. Xr 1 (talk) 00:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do about expanding the entry for Paradise Lost though you'll have to be patient. As for the gothic album, the allmusic.com review identifies it as doom/death. I'll see whether I can find another source but if you know of any professional review identifying the album as gothic metal, then please let me know.--Bardin (talk) 01:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense

The current article intro is nonsense... If you're going to claim gothic metal "originated in the mid-90's" (which isn't true anyway) then at least don't use doom metal and gothic metal bands from the late-80's/early-90's as an example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.63.162.71 (talk) 11:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't necessarilly agree with everything the main editor of this article did. However on this particular issue I found several published sources that confirmed explicitely what he wrote in the intro. Please if you disagree with what he wrote and want to change things then 1. make sure at least to stay civil (calling his edits nonsense is agressive and offending) 2. Provide other sources that explictely contradict what is written in the intro. Thanks for your comprehension.Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 23:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

"Uncivil", "aggressive" and "offending"? I can only assume that you didn't even read my comment. 62.63.162.71 (talk) 02:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The 3rd and the Mortal

I couldn't find anything on the internet about The 3rd and the Mortal being a gothic metal band so that's something you're going to have help me with, Frédérick. The only thing I found is the allmusic.com entry but there's no description of the band at all, only the tag. Then there's this source on doom-metal.com that explicitly says that the band has no connection to gothic music. I'll bet you wish you can find something like that for Nightwish. :) I am not familiar with The 3rd and the Mortal. I have not ever heard their music. I do not have the book you cite as a source but I assume the book describes them as gothic metal and that's what I mentioned in the article in the reference. But I think that if they are to be in the lead section of the article then there should be more than one sentence on them in the article. Maybe you can use the book to add more info for the band since I do not have the book myself - or if you prefer, you can quote the relevant passage for me and I'll see what I can do with it. --Bardin (talk) 11:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd gladly help you.But note I'm not the one who inserted this band in the lead section. Anyway to avoid doubts of what is really said in the book, I'm briefly summarising what is said. The chapter refering to gothic metal(Carnets Noirs p.212) indeed deals with this band when tracing the origins of gothic metal in doom metal. The book doesn't describe the bands as gothic metal though, but rather as the creators of atmospheric doom metal. But it is said that the introduction of a female chant (by singer Kari)in this kind of music was a revolution, because until then appart from the bimbos such as Lita Ford and Doro, metal was an exclusively masculine territory. It's also said that the use of a female chant in this band opens the way for the new generation of gothic female fronted bands including Theatre of tragedy, the Gathering , Orphanage or Within Temptation.Ok, knowing their music, I think they're worth to be mentioned, but I let you judge by yourself on this summary so that you can decide whether the band is worth to mention within the article. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 15:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a really tough call. The book does not describe them as gothic metal so the only thing we've got is the tag on allmusic.com which does not even offer a short description of the band. The doom-metal.com review describes them otherwise as not being gothic metal so that makes this a bit of a contentious entry like Nightwish, albeit not one as popular or well-known. I have mentioned before that I would not like to use allmusic.com as the sole reference if there's anything contentious about the claim. What do you think? Should we just remove the 3rd and the Mortal altogether from the article or should we just leave a short mention of them as a precursor for the female fronted bands in the beauty and the beast section of the article with a note indicating that they are not always seen as a gothic metal band citing the doom-metal.com reference? Either way, I do not think they should be mentioned in the lead section. --Bardin (talk) 22:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

They're the first atmospheric female-fronted metal band, even if they were not gothic metal, they probably influenced the female-fronted/atmospheric metal genre - although I do not know if Theatre of Tragedy ever said anything explicit about them being an inspiration, it's likely they were known to them, and they were definitely a precursor. In the End of Innocence documentary of Nightwish they are explicitly mentioned as the prime inspiration for Tuomas to start an atmospheric female-fronted rock (subsequently metal) band, along with The Gathering and Theatre of Tragedy, perhaps even more than these. (His profile page on Nightwish.com names Tears Laid in Earth as one of his top 5 favourite albums.) I even found a transcript of the dialogue in the documentation online, if that helps. Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Bardin, I don't think anyone proposed here to consider this band as a gothic metal anyway. All I did is provide a source for this sentence: "The early contributions of The 3rd and the Mortal, The Gathering and Theatre of Tragedy foreshadowed a rise in the number of female fronted bands in the genre". This fact is verifiable concerning The 3rd and the Mortal.

So the issue whether they're goth or not is beside the point as far as I am concerned. But note that despite they're not considered as a gothic metal band, they're mentioned in a book dealing with gothic metal as important precursors of gothic metal along with other bands like Paradise lost, Anathema and My Dying Bride (in the same page).Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 08:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I've made some changes to reflect the new info about The 3rd and the Mortal. I'm not entirely satisfied with the changes I've made but it should do for now. I'll see whether I can improve it further when I begin expanding this article further. --Bardin (talk) 13:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

At least, me I'm satisfied with your edits.Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 19:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Is Nightwish gothic metal?

"I'll bet you wish you can find something like that for Nightwish". :)

You mean something like this:

“- HoM. Talking about labels, music styles inside Metal, I don´t like this terms but do you think that Nightwish is a gothic metal band? People say that only for to have a woman singing.

Nightwish is not a gothic metal band, this kind of label is for bands like Paradise Lost, Type o Negative or Lacrimosa, maybe our lyrics are in a post gothic way but our music sounds different.”

This is an extract of an interview with Tuomas and Anette. Here's a link:

http://hallofmetal.com/ver_entrevista.php?id=34&leng=en

Apparently Tuomas seems to disagree with THE reliable sources that state they're gothic. He's exactly saying what I've always tried to explain here. At least I don’t think anyone could argue Tuomas denies Nightwish to be goth because he is prejudiced against his own music.Whatever I let you verify and judge by yourself the reliability of this source and see whether it can be used or not.Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 19:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

That's already being used on the list of gothic metal bands, mate. I was the one who added it there. Many days ago. Note however that there is no indication that it is Tuomas who is making that response and not Anette. That's why I used the phrase "a view not agreed by all members of the band" in that list because I cannot assume that it is Tuomas and not Anette. I generally do not like using interviews when we do not even know who it is making the response but regardless, I used it on the list because it's the only thing I've found on the internet that explicitly describes the band not being gothic metal. --Bardin (talk) 01:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Music samples

I picked out all the music samples myself on the folk metal page but I thought should give others a chance to voice their opinions on what music samples I should use for this gothic metal article before I begin work on expanding it. Each sample cannot be more than 30 seconds or 10% of the track, whichever is shorter. Bear in mind also that music samples should not be gratuitous. They each should demonstrate something specific. I'm thinking of using something from Theatre of Tragedy's debut album to demonstrate the beauty and the beast vocals, for example. Probably A Hamlet For A Slothful Vassal or Sweet Art Thou. We probably should have at least one sample from any of the three north English bands to demonstrate the transition from doom/death to gothic. Also note that I do not have every band on the list in my music collection: I do have Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride but not Anathema or Type O Negative, for instance. So if you think a music sample of the latter should be provided, then you'll have to create that music sample and upload it yourself. Otherwise, just give me your suggestions and I'll do the work myself. Try to be as detailed with your suggestions: do not just tell me that this song or that song is cool or great. I want the name of the song, the album it's from (since there might be more than one version of a song) and the name of the artist. I also want to know what exactly that song would be good at demonstrating in the context of this article. If you do not give me such a reason, then I'll disregard your suggestion. If you can do so, please also identify the exact portion of the song that should be used as a sample (eg. verse, chorus, intro, etc. or by track time 0:48-1:12). --Bardin (talk) 08:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I suggest "Lorelei" or "Cassandra" from Theatre of Tragedy's Aegis.Why?Because the album is definitive for the gothic metal subgenre.It has strong goth rock influence, however it's still metal. "Lorelei" for example is an up-beat song that I'm sure will be well accepted in any goth club."Cassandra" is a slow and tender ballad. I also suggest Paradise Lost's song "Gothic", because it's a melodic death/doom metal with typical beauty and the beast vocal style, as well as some orchestral elements.One of the earliest examples of gothic metal.Or may be "The Last Time" from the classic "Draconian Times" - it has that specific goth rock feel, mixed with rending riffs.Also it's a well known song - it was released as a single. Or "Unreachable" from the newest album - the pioneers are still producing good music."Angellore" or "Midwintertears" from Tristania's "Widow's Weed" would also be good examples.Especially the first which has that melancholic-romantic sound. I'll add My Dying Bride's "For You" - doom-death, however much melodic and tender. And Cradle of Filth's "Cruelty Brought Thee Orchids" - typical gothic/black song with strong horror/vampiric theme. Xr 1 (talk) 16:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Expanding this article

I have already begun expanding this article over at my personal sandbox. Nothing should be taken as concrete as changes are always possible. Comments and suggestions are welcome. --Bardin (talk) 15:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been observing your work in the sandbox for some time now, and I got to say you're doing a great job. Xr 1 (talk) 17:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't looked at this page properly for some time, and I agree... it's looking phenomenally good compared to what I remember! Blackmetalbaz (talk) 16:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I want to add something about Cradle of filth.I saw bardin have written about them in his sandbox.However my advice to him is to focuse more on their later albums, not on their debut, because actually the first album is not very close to gothic metal. 88.87.6.72 (talk) 20:31, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Cradle of Filth is a Dark metal group and has nothing to do with Goth or Goth Metal. --Ada Kataki (talk) 14:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Dark metal, if anyone doesn't know, is usually a mix of black metal with gothic or doom metal, as well as some other elements .So actually to say cradle is gothic/black or dark is not very different. But to say cradle has nothing to do with goth metal..well, excuse me. Dani, for example, cites Paradise Lost, the European darkwave and Lord Byron as influences... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.252.29.235 (talk) 22:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Missing an interesting - even vital - piece of information...

Paradise Lost did an interview last year with Decibel magazine where Nick Holmes claimed they coined the "gothic metal" term [6]. This should be an interesting addition to the article. Musicaindustrial (talk) 21:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The Notes Part

I think the notes part should be a subtitle of references. And it seems better when it is a subpage in the article. --Nazzzz (talk) 16:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Archive 1

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Archive 8

Music

People, there are many uses for the term "gothic" and I think we are confusing them.

Metal is NOT gothic MUSIC. Gothic Metal may be a dark type of metal, thus the name "gothic", but it has absolutely NO influence form gothic ROCK, aside from being melancholy.

I hope I made myself clear? the lyrics are dark and their aesthetics are too, that's why it appeals to goths, but the music is in no way related to gothic rock. For example, gothic metal is as gothic as Evanescence. They have the aesthetics and lyrics, but it is not influenced by gothic rock (Evanescence is something like Gothic Alternative Rock).

I hope we can stay objective and forget what "goths" like or don't like, the lyrics and looks, and just think about the MUSIC for a change.

The only true gothic metal bands that are influenced by gothic rock are Fields of the Nephilim, Lacrimosa, Tristania and, to a certain extent, Inkubus Sukubbus.

Another thing, in the article it mentions bands such as The 69 Eyes, HIM and Evanescence.. is it implying that these bands are metal? because that is wrong as well.

--Winterbat (talk) 21:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

First, Fields of The Nephilim is absolutely not a "true gothic metal band", this is one the original gothic rock band. Plus no offence but you're contradicting yourself : you're saying "Gothic metal absolutely takes no influence from gothic rock" but at the same time you're saying "some gothic metal takes influences from gothic rock?" That's quite paradoxical at least in the way you word it. Anyway I think I know what you mean. Actually you meant that gothic metal doesn't particulary capture Gothic rock's distinctive sound however some gothic bands are influenced by gothic rock anyway, even though they don't necessarilly capture their sound. I somehow agree since original gothic takes mostly his sound from doom metal. However some bands including late-Paradise lost clearly borrow some of the distinctive sound of gothic rock and some of Moonspell's atmospheres in albums like irreligious are clearly reminiscent of the occult soundscapes of Fields of the Nephilim. Furthermore You'll note that many gothic metal bands heavily borrow ethereal atmospheres from ethereal wave and gothic neoclassical music( both are subgenres of Darkwave. now DW is associated with original gothic culture)

Anyway concerning your general comments: while I agree there are many confusion concerning the gothic word, I think you didn't realized that the problem here is far more complicated than that. Because it's not just a matter of confusion but a matter of sources that legitimate such confusion.And in wikipedia source is the law, no matter what the truth may be... That's as simple as that.

The main editor of this article provided sources(in perfect accordance with wikipedia's rules) to justify his claims. So what do you want to do? Actually he's dealing with the broader and more popular sense of the term gothic metal. While purists would consider only original bands like Tristania, Paradise Lost or Theatre of Tragedy as gothic metal, folk's use extended the sense of this term. So purists(including me) may disagree with this editor on certain points including HIM, Evanescence, the 69 eyes...but let's face it: serious music specialists like musicologists haven't worked on thsi genre yet. So you are left with reviewers, journalists (with all their limitations and approximation in terms of musicological precision) as sole "reliable" sources. So no wonder the definition is confused. But that's the way it is. This main editor is not confused himself, he's just applying the wikipedia rules strictly in a inescapable logic.

Yes, this situation is quite frustrating at the end, because in this large view gothic metal seems to be in the end some kind of melting pot of various music that have but nothing (or barely) in common. But let's face it: Just like many popular music gothic metal genre hasn't really been theorized properly by music specialists.Everybody uses the term for anything. So there are barely sources that can correct the confusions and amalgams. Hence the large extention of the term gothic in folk's use that purists may find crazy. But that's the way it is. Got to cope with general misuse of this term, I guess...User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 23:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you know what the sad thing is? There are more sources on Evanescence and HIM being goth metal than there are for bands like The Sins of Thy Beloved, Tristania or even Theatre of Tragedy. I had such an easy time finding references for the stuff on Evanescence and HIM but it was so damn difficult for me to find much sourced info that I can use for the Norwegian contingent. I could not even give Tristania an entire paragraph for themselves like I did for all the other bands discussed. I got into goth metal myself through this Norwegian trio and so I really found it disappointing to see so little mention of them online, especially the ever so unique TSOTB.

Anyway, I do not really think you need bother making such a long reply to someone who has not even made a single contribution on wikipedia other than to complain above about what gothic music is or is not. It's no big secret that there are many goths out there who can't stand anything metal and vice versa. Nothing new there. Except for Inkubus Sukkubus being a metal band. --Bardin (talk) 02:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me for not making any contributions to wikipedia, I didn't know it was a requirement to give my opinion about something. Wikipedia is the number one source for information, I just wanted it to be as true as possible since many people get confused regarding genres. Thanks to Frederick who pointed out the need for sources and why it can not be changed. I do like metal by the way, I didn't attack the genre, I was just stating that some bands just didn't get their sound from rock. As I said before (but it seems you failed to notice), it doesn't matter what goths like or not, the music is what matters. About Inkubus Sukkubus, it is not a metal band, it's a gothic rock band with certain characteristics that resemble metal (mainly the way the guitar sounds).--Winterbat (talk) 23:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Metal in general is not gothic music. And some goths may not accept gothic metal as part of their scene. But the truth is that (especially the first) gothic metal groups were actually inspired by the 80s goth rock and darkwave movement.So this (and the album "Gothic" by Paradise Lost ) gave name to this type of music. I do not see anything wrong with it ... Xr 1 (talk) 07:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)