Talk:Gothic Christianity

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Untitled

We need to see more details about the faith itself. And why they showed respect to Roman churches, if they were against Papacy?--Connection 11:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is a mess

As it was, it was full of odd claims. I've started working on it, and hope to improve it further, in the next few weeks. Jacob Haller 00:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree and have started to work on it. Aryaman (☼) 22:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree too! Speculations about a secret Arianism 800 years later! Sounds UFOlogy to me! I presume the upper classes defending religious minorities was just an expression of Homo-sapiens-inborn humanism. Said: Rursus ☻ 10:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Crimea?

The section Gothic Christianity in the Crimea is a stub expecting someone to fill it up. I think there is not much to say about this, except that they were probably Greek Orthodox (not "Germanic Christians") and illiterate. They were probably never touched by Ulfilas' Arian conversion efforts. Citations needed of course. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 06:37, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Church of the Goths?

Hi everybody. There is a rather confused and confusing article called Archdiocese of the Goths, which just survived an AfD. Can anybody here spare a little time to have a look at it and help out? --DanielRigal (talk) 11:25, 11 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 November 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus: relisted three times to no clear consensus: no prejudice against speedy renomination but it's probably a good idea to notify the relevant WikiProjects to ensure the discussion gets somewhere. (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 16:21, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Gothic Christianity → Christianisation of the Goths – Scope, WP:PRECISION. Per WP:CONSISTENCY with for instance Christianization of the Slavs and Christianization of Kievan Rus', but her referring to the Goths. See also the problems with the "X ethnicity Christianity" as discussed on Celtic Christianity#Definitions. Chicbyaccident (talk) 11:45, 16 November 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Iffy★Chat -- 12:08, 30 November 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Seraphim System ^(talk) 08:59, 8 December 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. SITH (talk) 14:45, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is no PRECISION or CONSISTENCY issue here. The question is: what is the page about? The term "Gothic Christianity" is not foreign to modern scholarship. It refers to the distinct brand of Arianism practised by the Goths with Gothic as a liturgical language. Srnec (talk) 12:52, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While Arianism were prevalent and likely dominant at one point, this was not the case all through the relevant history of the scope. Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:32, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mild Support, or for an alternative - Christianity of the Goths maybe. My main objection to the current title is that for many readers it will suggest "Gothic Christianity of the late Middle Ages" - ie, the Catholic church in the "Gothic Age". Johnbod (talk) 16:07, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support that alternative. Chicbyaccident (talk) 17:21, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What about Gothic Arianism, assuming the main topic is that Gothic Christianity and not the strident Catholicism of the later Visigoths. Srnec (talk) 23:26, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ok with that - all the article covers at the moment is Arianism. Johnbod (talk) 01:29, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd still insist on Christianisation of the Goths. As seen in Template:Germanic peoples religion section, we correctly have Christianity in Anglo-Saxon England, but the Goths article is named differently for no good reason. It would simply be too hard to pinpoint when, who and what precisely "Gothic Christianity" was. Better broaden the scope accordingly as seen in equivalent articles. Chicbyaccident (talk) 20:32, 6 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But are you still ok with Christianity of the Goths? Johnbod (talk) 09:08, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As a secondary best option, yes. Chicbyaccident (talk) 11:27, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that it is "too hard to pinpoint when, who and what precisely Gothic Christianity was". Gothic was a liturgical language of certain Arian churches. That is Gothic Christianity. Srnec (talk) 16:12, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While article content could reflect assertions of that, zooming out the borders seem unclear. Goths embraced Nicene Christianity at the Third Council of Toledo in 589. Have you considered the summary in Goths#Religion? Don't you think this article would best reflect your determined scope as one confined part of an ongoing to process in a bigger picture? Chicbyaccident (talk) 17:09, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I don't think there's an confusion about what "Gothic Christianity" means. It refers to the Arian Christianity of the Goths. Arguing that not all Goths followed this is like arguing we shouldn't say "Scandinavian Paganism" because some Scandinavians worshipped different gods. Religion can be a matter of individual conscience, but here it's a matter of national/ethnic identity.--Ermenrich (talk) 23:39, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Ermenrich: What of a move to Gothic Arianism per Johnbod's concern? Srnec (talk) 06:36, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That would be the third best option, I would say. At least better than the preexisting. Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:00, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

@Srnec: Sorry for not responding before this thing closed. The other proposal is better, but I still don't really see a problem with the current name.--Ermenrich (talk) 20:21, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved: consensus appears to be against moving to the original title however this is without prejudice to speedy renomination for any of the alternative proposals as long as everyone who took part is pinged. Many thanks, (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 15:39, 11 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gothic Christianity → Christianity of the Goths – Per arguments by Johnbod above. Chicbyaccident (talk) 20:24, 27 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisted. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 21:09, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relist note: Members of WikiProjects Christianity and European history have been notified of this request. WikiProjects Dacia and Ancient Germanic studies have been marked "defunct" and "inactive", respectively. Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 21:20, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What is wrong with Gothic Arianism, which I think is clearer about the topic? We do not need an article on the Catholicism of the Goths, which wasn't distinctly "Gothic". Srnec (talk) 00:37, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would support "Gothic Arianism" as a secondary best alternative - better than the precurrent - although I still believe the original proposal above would be optimal so as to reflect the process. PPEMES (talk)

Yes, from where did you find indications that this would somehow be intended as a secret? Since I'm not in the habit of changing usernames on a daily basis, since you seem very serious about this, would you mind to please provide me with a link to some policy summary on actions to take subsequent to a username that I may then carefully study and implement so to try to reach your full satisfaction in this matter, please? PPEMES (talk) 21:42, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(In the interests of full disclosure, editor Chicbyaccident now edits under the username PPEMES. Swanny18 (talk) 22:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC))[reply]

I could live with that. Johnbod (talk) 13:40, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I could also support Gothic Arianism.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:01, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per GBS frequency 100 to 1 (hundred to one, literally) in favor of "Gothic Christianity" against "Christianity of the Goths" (results from Google Book Search). Also, opposed to introduction of a distinctive "Arian" label, since its use is significantly redefined in modern scholarly works. Sorabino (talk) 20:42, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Sorabino's arguments. I've never been very in favor of the change anyway.--Ermenrich (talk) 23:45, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is an ambiguity issue that Sorabino does not address. Srnec (talk) 00:32, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are you referring to the term "Gothic" or what do you mean? He has a good point about Arianism not really being seen as a thing anymore, anyway.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:43, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That "Gothic Christianity" can refer to certain expressions of Christian faith from the High Middle Ages. It's the reason Gothic church does not redirect here. As to Arianism, yes he has a point, but I suspect we aren't going to rename it "Gothic Homoianism". Arianism: Roman Heresy and Barbarian Creed was the title of a major volume of scholarship published in 2016. And whatever scholars now may say: 'Arian' is a contemporary label for it. Srnec (talk) 00:09, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.