Talk:Gordon Warner

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Warner was a dedicated ambassador of Kendo to non-Japanese practitioners in Japan. He took a special interest in an aspiring kendo-ka named Joseph W. Hlebica, a graduate of the University of Oregon, and specialist in Japanese early-childhood English-language education. Hlebica was resident of Kagoshima City during the years 1979-‘81, where he achieved kendo shodan at the Kagoshima Prefectural Police Central Kendo Dojo. It was at that renowned dojo where Warner introduced himself to Hlebica, having heard of the latter’s dedication through the network of Japanese instructors with whom Warner practiced kendo and iaido. Having read Warner’s book, This is Kendo, as a student at the University of Oregon, Hlebica, also enrolled at the time in Prof. Yoko Matsuoka McClain’s course in Jaoanese language, decided to go to Japan upon graduation to teach English and practice kendo. He was just one of many amongst a generation of young American kendo-ka inspired by Warner, and fortunate enough to be taken by Warner into mentorship.

Authority or Author?

Is this person an authority on Kendo, or simply an author/translator from Japanese?

What else, besides being an author, is he known for?

Certainly the titles of his publications (Japanese holidays, history of Okinawa, etc) in addition to his publications on Kendo (coauthored with other authors), seem to indicate that he has no standing as a Kendo authority on his own.

24.114.82.23 (talk) 19:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

while this link isn't sufficient for the main article, it strongly suggests Warner was a teacher on the subject of Kendo, and also says that he is no longer living, which may have bearing on the deletion proposal re living subjects. --Zippy (talk)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:56, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that Gordon Warner became the highest-ranked non-Japanese kendo sword fighter despite fighting on only one leg? Source: [1] "During World War II he fought in the Solomon Islands, losing his left leg but never his spirit. ... He has reached the rank of 7th Dan — the only foreigner ever to do so"

• Reviewed: Carole Ann Haswell
• Comment: Rescued from a BLP prod but during expansion discovered not to actually be a BLP; in any case, the 2x BLP expansion rule is no longer allowed, so this is a 5x expansion

5x expanded by David Eppstein (talk). Self-nominated at 23:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC).

• I like the hook and the article looks good, but the source provided only says he reached 7th dan, and neither source used for the hook fact explicitly says that he became "the highest-ranked non-Japanese kendo practitioner ever". Maybe a clarification or an additional source is needed? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• @Narutolovehinata5: Did you not read the second half of the quote I provided from the source, "the only foreigner ever to do so"? Or am I not seeing an ambiguity in that quote? Maybe you can tell me how being the only foreigner to achieve a rank (among a set of ranks that one progresses through one at a time) is different from being the highest-ranked foreigner, because if there is a difference I don't see what it is. (Also, sorry for the slow response — I didn't see your review until now because I forgot to watchlist this nomination and didn't receive a talk page notification.) —David Eppstein (talk) 05:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

There's technically a difference (it's possible to be the highest ranked at something historically while not being the only one). If the sources focus on his being the only foreigner to reach 7th dan, then perhaps as an ALT the hook could instead mention that? I was just wondering since I would personally be alright with the original wording, but knowing how things work at WT:DYK, it may not fly at WP:ERRORS. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 09:12, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Can I have a second opinion here, please? Because I am still failing to understand how the source differs from the hook. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:27, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

The Stars and Stripes sources says that that he is the only foreigner to reach 7th Dan, which is a slightly different fact from saying that he is the highest ranked non-Japanese kendo practitioner. The source explicitly mentions the first and does not mention the second, and while for all intents-and-purposes they would in this case mean the same thing, DYK requires that hook facts be verified in the source. If a source could be found that explicitly mentions that he was the highest ranked non-Japanese kendo practitioner rather than merely mentioning that he is the only one to reach 7th Dan, then please feel free to do so for the review to continue. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 22:48, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Can I have a second opinion from a different reviewer? I think we are having English comprehension issues here both in the sourcing of this claim and in my request for another opinion. I did not intend to ask you to state your opinion a second time. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:07, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi! Just for clarity, I was asked to give a second opinion by the reviewer, but the thoughts are my own. I think there are issues on both sides. The issue I think it "highest-ranked" isn't explicitly stated, just that they reached 7th Dan, and no other foreigner ever did. The idea of a "ranking" to me could be confused with a world ranking, rather than the tiered system used in martial arts. I feel to stay away from an WP:ERRORS chat, a better hook would be

• ALT1:... that Gordon Warner was the only non-Japanese kendo sword fighter to reach 7th dan, despite fighting on only one leg?

This feels more accurate to me. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:19, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Would "first" instead of "only" be acceptable? There are more recent western 7-dan. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:58, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

That would be fine, although the article would need to be changed to reflect that and that a source that more Westerners have reached 7th Dan would need to be added. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 19:51, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

This is fucking ridiculous. We DO NOT need to add the fact that more Westerners have reached 7-dan to the article; it is off topic. If someone is the first to do something, they are the first to do that thing whether or not someone else does it later and regardless of whether or not the second person to do so has already done so or whether it is in the unknown future. None of that changes whether they are first. I brought that up only to point out that Lee Vilenski's proposed replacement hook is inaccurate. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:53, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

If there have been later ones, then yes, it should be first, rather than only. There should be at least a sentence in the article mentioning that others have tied or surpassed this really - for accuracy's sake. Don't really need to name anyone, although if it's a long time later, it could be quite a notable fact he was the only foreign 7th Dan for a number of years/decades etc. I don't think this particularly changes the hook or the nom though Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:58, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

• To sidetrack this WP:LAME dispute, how about
  • ALT2 ... that before Gordon Warner became notable for his one-legged swordsmanship, he set a world record time in the breaststroke? —David Eppstein (talk) 21:02, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

For reference ALT1 worked for me with the change of wording. I've never liked the "notable for" wording in mainspace, I prefer:

• • ALT2b ... that before Gordon Warner became a one-legged kendokan, he set a world record time in the breaststroke?

How does that work? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:09, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

• I'm leaning away from the "first 7-dan" line anyway because I can't find unified records of other 7-dan to make clear its accuracy and because this discussion makes clear that the significance of "dan" rankings is not likely to be widely understood by front page readers. ALT2b is looking better (except that "kendokan" is not a word, I think; a person who does kendo is a kendoka) but there's still a timing issue with it: he was a kendoka before he set the swim time, but then lost his leg and continued getting better as a kendoka. ALT1b implies an inaccurate history of him taking up kendo only after losing his leg. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:16, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
• ALT2c ... that after world-record breaststroke swimmer Gordon Warner lost his leg, he continued practicing Japanese swordfighting and eventually reached the 7th dan in kendo? —David Eppstein (talk) 21:36, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Works for me. A little wordy, sure, but very accurate and notable. I'll leave it to the original reviewer to put a tick if it's suitable. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:55, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'm a bit busy at the moment but I'll try to finish the full review by tomorrow. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:15, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

5x expansion verified, other article requirements are met. No close paraphrasing was found. ALT2c appears to have been agreed upon as a compromise, and it is interesting, verified, and meets requirements. QPQ has been done. The only issue right now is that the source for "Less than a week later he lost his left leg when a tank he was commanding was attacked after taking out six machine gun nests." comes in the sentence after and not that exact sentence; once a footnote is added to this sentence it will be good to go. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 04:28, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

 Done (and corrected an inaccuracy in the sourcing; one of the three sources there was only for the battle itself, and not the following sentence about the Navy Cross). This rule always feels overly pedantic to me but it is the rule. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:36, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 09:08, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

He had another Son

His first born son was William Gregory Warner. Born Sept. 20, 1943- March 10, 1998 with Velma Schroeder. This was just before WW2 So there are a total of 3 children that Dr. Gordon Warner had Jennyjenwarner (talk) 16:33, 13 April 2022 (UTC)