Talk:Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1977)

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On 10 July 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Goran Jovanović (footballer) to Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1977). The result of the discussion was moved.

Birth-year controversy

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1984) be renamed and moved to Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1977).

result:
Procedural close. The birth-year facts have to be sorted out before any page moves are made to new qualifiers. See #Extended discussion section below for details. Kudos to all editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Publishing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 21:46, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Links: current log • target log

This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Result:
Procedural close. The birth-year facts have to be sorted out before any page moves are made to new qualifiers. See #Extended discussion section below for details. Kudos to all editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Publishing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 21:46, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1984) → Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1977) — per Soccerway.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.205.174.87 (talk) 16:15, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 13:13, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Giant Snowman 13:16, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Question. Is it possible that this footballer is being confused with Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1976)? See also the Goran Jovanović (disambiguation) page. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 22:46, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This seems totally screwed up... see this Soccerway link. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 23:21, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Jovanović" is supposed to be a very common surname in Serbia, so be careful with this. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 23:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended discussion

What we see so far is the dab page at Goran Jovanović that shows two footballers:

Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1976), Serbian football player
Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1984), Serbian football player

Then there are the two Soccerway links:

According to this Soccerway search, there are only the two players. So before we go moving pagenames around, this must be sorted out by someone who knows more about these than I do. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 08:57, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also This link is used in the "born 1976" article that gives a birth year of 1972. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 21:38, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The guidance at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople) seems clear when birth years cannot be determined, so the following page moves have been made:

P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 23:32, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I further moved Goran Jovanović (footballer coach) (ex Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1976)) to Goran Jovanović (football coach) without even leaving aredirect. Let's ascribe invention of the phrase "footballer coach" to a brainfart by User:Paine Ellsworth. ;) No such user (talk) 09:09, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but the moves by @Paine Ellsworth: were bad and not in-line with MOS or common practice, now necessitating further RMs. Giant Snowman 12:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 10 July 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 21:15, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Goran Jovanović (footballer) → Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1977) – per sources in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.203.197.43 (talk) 03:52, 10 July 2022 (UTC), malformed request fixed by Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 08:45, 10 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:45, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 12:11, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - related RM at Talk:Goran Jovanović (football coach)#Requested move 10 July 2022. Giant Snowman 12:14, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support - no PRIMARYTOPIC with multiple footballers of this name. Giant Snowman 12:16, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:12, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. So far as I can see, the "birth-year controversies" have not been resolved – see #Birth-year controversy above and on the other talk page. Until this birth year can be firmly verified, Wikipedia should not title pages with possibly false information. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 19:06, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Except sources like Goran Jovanović at WorldFootball.net and {{FootballDatabase.eu}} say 1977. Giant Snowman 20:53, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
~~This source gives a birth date of 1969 in Montenegro, not in Serbia~~ (that's for the football coach). This source gives his birth date as 1972. WP:NCSP, backed by community consensus, is crystal clear on what to do when birth dates cannot be determined, as shown in the November 2021 move request above. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 10:14, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How about this source. The one you listed is for Goran Jovanović that needs to be moved to Goran Jovanović (footballer, born 1972). 47.203.197.43 (talk) 12:38, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The problem seems to be that different sources give different birth years, which is ambiguous and can lead to false info in the article if any birth year is used, even if only as a dabber. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 09:47, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: At https://www.footballdatabase.eu/en/search_result&q=Goran%20JOVANOVIC I see three results, 1972, 1976, and 1977. Then there is a coach (1969) linked in the "Birth-year controversy" discussion above. Adumbrativus (talk) 01:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per all available sources - 47.203.197.43 (talk) 12:38, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Both are footballers in any case, so the current disambiguation is no disambiguation at all. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Gentle reminder that move requests are NOTAVOTE, so even though there is growing local support for these page moves, closers should strongly consider that sources are all mixed up when it comes to the birth years of this footballer and of the footballer/football coach by the same name. The community consensus at WP:NCSP should help determine these outcomes. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 22:03, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support some move, all are footballers. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Paine Ellsworth, would you mind showing me which sources say that this Goran Jovanović (the one who was born in Zemun and played for FK Mogren) was born in some year other than 1977? The ones you mention above seem to be referring to someone else. At the moment I'm thinking that the sources do appear to use 1977 exclusively, but I agree that it's important to be cautious when dealing with BLP birth years and so I want to understand where you're coming from. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 19:19, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The challenge seems to be that the few available sources are not distinct enough to help us discern between the footballer and the coach on their pages, and I don't know enough about footballers and coaches to be able to make a distinction. Nor do I appear to be the only editor who is uncertain. You are the first to say, "the sources do appear to use 1977 exclusively", which is the most decisive statement on this talk page. I do wish I could be more helpful, and yet I in my non-expertise am still unsure who's who on these sports page sources. Some say born in Montenegro, others say something else. I think Wikipedia should fall back on the guidance in WP:NCSP and refrain from using birth years to disambiguate in these uncertain cases. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 19:37, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The sources that I've seen ([2][3][4][5]) all seem to tell a pretty consistent story: a footballer from Zemun (northern Serbia) played for FK Mogren and was born in 1977. The sources that use other birth years are all referring to different people, such as a coach from Montenegro who's coached several Montegrin teams and was born in 1969 and a player from Niš (southern Serbia) who played for Győr and was born in 1972. These people have nothing in common besides the name: reliable sources show that they are from different places, played for different teams, and were born in different years. This article is about the Zemun-born FC Mogren player, and all of the sources found thus far say that that person was born in 1977; we haven't found a single one to the contrary. Dealing with Slavic football is tricky (it's certainly not my area of expertise!) and I'd definitely oppose if the sources really were all jumbled up, but as it stands I have to agree with the IP that "all available sources" point in the same direction. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:41, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(edit conflict) Maybe move to Goran Jovanović (midfielder) per WP:NCPSPORT#Association football (soccer) section "2. c." in the event the birthdate issue cannot be resolved, considering that the subject at Goran Jovanović (football coach) could alternatively be named Goran Jovanović (defender) with that same naming convention. In any case, the disambiguator "(footballer)" is obviously ambiguous. Steel1943 (talk) 21:19, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the birthdate issue was caused by there just happening to be more than two Gorans who were footballers (as Extraordinary Writ surmised), two of them notable enough for articles and the others non-notable. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:12, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]