Talk:Golok conflicts (1917–1949)
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Small edits to improve internal consistancy and readability
[edit]Changed "Muslim" to "Hui": Religious beliefs or practices are not mentioned in the article and Muslim appears to be used in an ethnic sense (e.g. not Han, not Tibetan, not Mongol) rather than a religious one.
Removed "Ma was highly anti-communist". This does not appear to be relevant to the article at all. It especially does not appear that he "wiped out many Tibetans" because of his anti-communist beliefs, or that the Tibetans he killed were mostly communists.
Made a couple minor edits described in the edit summary.Wikimedes (talk) 22:27, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Changing importance from top to mid in WPCHINA and WPTIBET
[edit]I think that this topic is of importance primarily to historians and not many people outside of China have even heard of it.
I’m also lowering the quality rating while I’m here. It does not look like the article went through any open review to get its B rating (not that that’s required) and even after recent improvements it still has some issues with structure and coverage. It still looks a bit like a bunch of thrown-together criticisms of the Mas and their armies. Even without knowing much about the topic, reading the article suggests some areas where it needs to be fleshed out: What made the war against the Ngoloks genocidal? What parts of Sharia law were applied during Ma Bufeng’s “Islamic Kuomintang rule” (if none, the word “Islamic” should probably be removed from the phrase.) How did Ma “eliminate racism” (the rest of the article seems to suggest that he inflamed racism.) Chiang threatened Tibetans if they did not comply with what?Wikimedes (talk) 14:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
Ngoloks
[edit]The word "ngolok" was must be added before every instance of the word "tibetan", because there were two types of Tibetans in qinghai- "civilized" tibetans living a sedentary lifestyle and the nomadic, tribal, "wild "ngoloks". The Ma Bufang article makes ti look as if he was anti buddhist and anti tibetan. While he can hardly be described as a benevolent kind ruler, the type of warfare he waged against the ngoloks was akin to the Indian wars in the United States, putting peaceful tribes like the cherokee on reservations while waging massacres and unrestricted warfare against tribes who refused to submit to American government control. The frontier where the ngoloks lived was like the American west, with no government. The Ngoloks were as vicious when fighting back like the american indians against the US army who scalped and tortured captured soldiers, it shouldn't be portrayed as Ma Bufang suddenly going on rampages against the prdinary tibetans in qinghai, he was specifically only fighting tibetan tribals like the ngoloks who lived on the frontier.
And this article should be renamed to "ngolok rebellions" or "pacification of ngoloks"Rajmaan (talk) 19:05, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Sources
[edit]Page 347
This the independent Ngoloks refuse to pay, and there is a general revolt on. I only hope this will not interfere with my ... You will hear again from me when I shall have emerged from the Ngolok country. If you do not hear from me, well, then, ...
Title The National Geographic Magazine, Volume 48 Contributor National Geographic Society (U.S.) Publisher National Geographic Society, 1925 Original from the University of California Digitized Aug 7, 2009
Monguor enlistment in the army against the ngoloks
Page 64
Title The Monguors of the Kansu-Tibetan frontier, Volume 1 Volume 44, Part 1 of Transactions, new series, American Philosophical Society The Monguors of the Kansu-Tibetan Frontier, Louis Schram Author Louis Schram Publisher American Philosophical Society, 1961 Original from the University of California Digitized Oct 15, 2009 Subjects Mongour (Chinese people) Monguor (Chinese people)
http://tibet.wordblog.de/2004/07/01/copplestone-castings-28mm-the-back-of-beyond/ (blogs are not reliable aourcea, but this blog contains quotations from books that are reliable)
The following narrative by Joseph Rock contains some errors about past history like the Dungan revolt (1895–1896), portraying it ad a muslim vs non muslim war when it was really fought between muslim rebels and muslim loyalists, but his accounts of contemporaneous events are okay.
http://tibet.wordblog.de/2004/07/01/copplestone-castings-28mm-the-back-of-beyond/
http://ylva.sverok.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=24830
The summaries in the tibet wordblog and sverok forum came from this book
http://books.google.com/books?id=axKZ-5fgahcC
Title THE Marching Wind Author LEONARD CLARK Published 1954
http://books.google.com/books?id=IEH6AAAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions
Title The Marching Wind Author Leonard Francis Clark Publisher Funk & Wagnalls, 1954 Length 368 pages Subjects Travel › Asia › China
Travel / Asia / China
http://books.google.com/books?id=aZMeAAAAMAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions
Title The marching wind Author Leonard Francis Clark Publisher Funk & Wagnalls, 1954 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Nov 10, 2006 Length 368 pages Subjects Travel › Asia › China
Travel / Asia / China
http://books.google.com/books?id=chU_PQAACAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions
Title The Marching Wind Equestrian travel classic series Author Leonard Clark Edition illustrated, reprint Publisher LONG RIDERS GUILD Press, 2001 ISBN 1590480600, 9781590480601 Length 368 pages Subjects Travel › Asia › China
Travel / Asia / China Travel / Essays & Travelogues
http://austrosinoartsprogram.org/blog/joseph-francis-rock-photographs-and-writings
http://issuu.com/mazine.ws/docs/asap_katal_2010
http://www.wildchina.com/blog/2010/09/exploring-joseph-rocks-china/
Rajmaan (talk) 01:49, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
http://tibet.wordblog.de/2004/07/01/copplestone-castings-28mm-the-back-of-beyond/
Moslem soldiers of fortune too hot for even their own tribes to handle
1. The marching wind - Page 43 https://books.google.com/books?id=aZMeAAAAMAAJ&q=Moslem+soldiers+of+fortune+too+hot+for+even+their+own+tribes+to+handle&dq=Moslem+soldiers+of+fortune+too+hot+for+even+their+own+tribes+to+handle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=c09iVa-XI4yvyATViYKYDA&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA
https://books.google.com/books?id=aZMeAAAAMAAJ
Leonard Francis Clark - 1954 - Snippet view - More editions
Colonel Ma's black Moslem skull-cap was worn like a navy sailor's, cocked over one narrow, baleful, dark brown eye. ... weather-beaten, and considerably scar- faced fighting hui hui (Moslem soldiers-of-fortune) , for the most part dressed like dandies in ... outlaws probably — too hot for even their own tribes to handle — blood enemies of the old British Raj on Khyber Pass, enemies of the Afghan kings.
afridis tungan
The marching wind - Page 43 https://books.google.com/books?id=aZMeAAAAMAAJ&q=afridis+tungan&dq=afridis+tungan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlBiVb2oDoX6yATXwoGQAw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA
https://books.google.com/books?id=aZMeAAAAMAAJ
Leonard Francis Clark - 1954 - Snippet view - More editions
There were among them apparently a few Afridis and Sharaunis (who called themselves Tungan), outlaws probably — too hot for even their own tribes to handle — blood enemies of the old British Raj on Khyber Pass, enemies of the Afghan ...
Scientific Results of a Journey in Central Asia 1899-1902 https://books.google.com/books?id=TBY6AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA206&dq=afridis+tungan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlBiVb2oDoX6yATXwoGQAw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ
https://books.google.com/books?id=TBY6AQAAMAAJ
Sven Anders Hedin, Erik Wilhelm Dahlgren, Axel Lagrelius - 1904 - Read - More editions
Kaschgar 1890 . Patma Kan, Tungan woman of Kaschgar. 1890 Asis Ahun, Tarantschi from Kuldscha, inhabitant of Kaschgar. 1890 . . . . Ibrahim Ahun,Tungan from Kan-Sn, inhabitant of Kaschgar. ... Schir Ali (zozth Punjab infantry) Afridi.
On Alexander's Track to the Indus - Page 35 https://books.google.com/books?id=lTTKBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA35&dq=afridis+tungan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlBiVb2oDoX6yATXwoGQAw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAg
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1108077609
M. Aurel Stein - 2014 - Preview - More editions
... of this tract, as they do at the present day on certain parts of the north-western borderland, say amongst Afridis or Wazirs ... had their formidable walls helped to save them from the devastating hordes of the last greatTungan rebellion.
Scientific Results of a Journey in Central Asia 1899-1902: ... - Page 69 https://books.google.com/books?id=TjhAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA69-IA33&dq=afridis+tungan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlBiVb2oDoX6yATXwoGQAw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw
https://books.google.com/books?id=TjhAAAAAYAAJ
Sven Anders Hedin, Erik Wilhelm Dahlgren, Axel Lagrelius - 1904 - Read - More editions
Pat1na Kan, Tungan woman of Kaschgar. 1890 81. Asis Ahun, Tarantschi from Kuldscha, inhabitant of Kaschgar. 1890 82. Ibrahim Ahun, Tungan from Кап-Su, inhabitant of Kaschgar. 1890 83. ... 1895 83. Schir Ali (2o:th Punjab infantry) Afridi.
The Mandala of Sherlock Holmes https://books.google.com/books?id=5mhnG8bD5hoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=afridis+tungan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlBiVb2oDoX6yATXwoGQAw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBA
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1596918624
Jamyang Norbu - 2008 - Preview - More editions
' Nothing has been known of those missing years until Jamyang Norbu's discovery, in a rusting tin dispatch box in Darjeeling, of a flat packet carefully wrapped in waxed paper and neatly tied with stout twine.
Unholy Wars: Afghanistan, America and International Terrorism https://books.google.com/books?id=J5C0R6qxjpgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=afridis+tungan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlBiVb2oDoX6yATXwoGQAw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0745319173
John K. Cooley - 2002 - Preview - More editions
This book provides an account of this alliance and how it backfired with the events of September 11.
The Rise of the New Model Army https://books.google.com/books?id=sjkV8gKBBdEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=afridis+tungan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlBiVb2oDoX6yATXwoGQAw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBg
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0521273773
Mark A. Kishlansky - 1983 - Preview - More editions
This is a meticulously-researched and highly controversial study of the origins and development of parliamentary and extra-parliamentary politics during the English Civil War.
The Encyclopaedia of Islam https://books.google.com/books?id=cJQ3AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=afridis+tungan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlBiVb2oDoX6yATXwoGQAw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBw
https://books.google.com/books?id=cJQ3AAAAIAAJ
Sir H. A. R. Gibb - 1954 - Preview - More editions
Achilleid https://books.google.com/books?id=iJ-GQgAACAAJ&dq=afridis+tungan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlBiVb2oDoX6yATXwoGQAw&ved=0CFIQ6AEwCA
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1904675115
Publius Papinius Statius, Oswald Ashton Wentworth Dilke, Robert W. Cowan - 2005 - No preview - More editions
In relating this story Statius explores the nature of gender and the limits of the epic genre, while playfully and wittily positioning himself in the epic - and wider - poetic tradition.
A Room with a View https://books.google.com/books?id=OZQLAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=afridis+tungan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NlBiVb2oDoX6yATXwoGQAw&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCQ
https://books.google.com/books?id=OZQLAAAAIAAJ
Edward Morgan Forster - 1922 - Read - More editions
Home use only.
https://books.google.com/books?id=YszV1u_VCGAC&pg=PA175&dq=strung+walls+moslem+garrison+garland+flowers&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAGoVChMI26qk37qRyAIVAmU-Ch2qSQxA#v=onepage&q=strung%20walls%20moslem%20garrison%20garland%20flowers&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=YszV1u_VCGAC&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=strung+walls+moslem+garrison+garland+flowers&source=bl&ots=EIDdHdZb2l&sig=CwrtiINwE7_nfH0X2S6JKJblVx8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAmoVChMIp_ObxbuRyAIVA06SCh1aHA5E#v=onepage&q=strung%20walls%20moslem%20garrison%20garland%20flowers&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=OzEOKNPsv2EC&pg=PA4&dq=strung+walls+moslem+garrison+garland+flowers&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAWoVChMI26qk37qRyAIVAmU-Ch2qSQxA#v=onepage&q=strung%20walls%20moslem%20garrison%20garland%20flowers&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=OzEOKNPsv2EC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=strung+walls+moslem+garrison+garland+flowers&source=bl&ots=u_h_kjEJJA&sig=jmeG7WVYsNE28Hg4rZmx75ipOgI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC8Q6AEwA2oVChMIp_ObxbuRyAIVA06SCh1aHA5E#v=onepage&q=strung%20walls%20moslem%20garrison%20garland%20flowers&f=false
144
144
http://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/18394/CH
http://www.josephrock.net/2012/05/seeking-mountains-of-mystery-part-2.html
http://www.westchinatours.com/show/Xiahe-History_33314.html
http://www.amazon.com/Eastern-Tibet-Bridging-China/product-reviews/9745240648
http://chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/Labrang_Monastery
Rajmaan (talk) 00:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
External links modified
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Title POV
[edit]I failed to see how the article is describing "rebellions" as suggested by title when the article say it was never conquered by the Ma Army before the start of this series of event.C933103 (talk) 19:30, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Applodion: Isn't Title lacking neutrality also a POV problem? Although I am not sure what better title could it be. C933103 (talk) 13:50, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
- @C933103: In general, you should be bold and just try to adjust the article instead of putting up templates. I agree that the title is a misnomer, so I will simply move it to "Golok conflicts (1917–1949)". That should be more neutral. Applodion (talk) 16:00, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Applodion: I'm wondering if there are any more neutral term with established use by historian or outsiders at the time to describe this series of conflict, which I failed to find relevant information. C933103 (talk) 20:31, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
- @C933103: I would recomend that if you find a better title, perhaps even one used by academia, you just change the article's title to that one. The current name is still a placeholder, after all, so there is no problem with changing it again. Applodion (talk) 21:36, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Applodion: I'm wondering if there are any more neutral term with established use by historian or outsiders at the time to describe this series of conflict, which I failed to find relevant information. C933103 (talk) 20:31, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
- @C933103: In general, you should be bold and just try to adjust the article instead of putting up templates. I agree that the title is a misnomer, so I will simply move it to "Golok conflicts (1917–1949)". That should be more neutral. Applodion (talk) 16:00, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
I see, thanks for your input. C933103 (talk) 23:21, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
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