Talk:Godzilla (franchise)

All evidence strongly suggests that Miramax currently has the US rights to Godzilla vs. Biollante, not Lionsgate

The user "heiseigodzilla425" at Toho Kingdom explains this situation better than I could

(at https://www.tohokingdom.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1751278&sid=6962a6bb5c6ed8a0c2e01c1ff72579e9#p1751278):

I tweaked a few things from the user's post to clarify some finer points, FYI.

"I'm not sure where/when people started thinking that Echo Bridge or Lionsgate owned Godzilla vs. Biollante, but Miramax has always owned it. After Disney sold off Miramax [in 2011], Miramax made a deal with Echo Bridge and Lionsgate to distribute their titles, and split the titles roughly 50/50 between the two distributors, with Lionsgate taking on the more popular titles. After some time, the deal with Echo Bridge expired, and Lionsgate inherited the Echo Bridge titles, but everything was still sublicensed through Miramax. When Lionsgate took over the distribution for Biollante, they merely released whatever Echo Bridge did, and swapped out Echo Bridge's logo with Lionsgate's logo. (As a side note, I have no idea if the Lionsgate pressings have the same audio issues that the initial Echo Bridge pressings had).

I have no idea if Lionsgate still has a distribution deal with Miramax. If they don't, then that will easily explain why Biollante is OOP these days. If they do still have that distribution deal, then that may be an indication that the rights for Biollante have reverted back to Toho. If we consider that Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah and Godzilla vs. Mothra (1992) may have reverted back already (since that Blu-ray combo pack is apparently OOP, and Keith Aiken stated that those films' renewal dates were in 2019), and assume (with extra emphasis on this being an assumption) that Toho's contracts for distribution rights from around 1989-1992 would have been fairly consistent, then it is not unlikely that Biollante's distribution rights reverted from Miramax back to Toho."

--JFP (talk) 15:54, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

To elaborate on that user's post, ViacomCBS recently obtained a 49% stake in Miramax. So, it seems extremely likely that the home video rights to Miramax's library will revert to Paramount (owned by ViacomCBS), though that depends on when Miramax's contracts with Liongsate (and/or other third-party home video distributors) are set to expire (likely soon, though that is simply an educated guess on my part). Also, Miramax's rights to Godzilla vs. Biollante may have since reverted to Toho (again, I don't know for sure).--JFP (talk) 16:01, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

We really shouldn't base info on what's found on forums. If there's a reliable source that confirms the contrary, then changing the current licensor back to Miramax, or whoever, would be warranted. Armegon (talk) 22:24, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Okay, Blu-ray.com has info on all known DVD and Blu-ray releases of Godzilla vs. Biollante at https://www.blu-ray.com/Godzilla-vs-Biollante/35043/#Releases Look carefully at the front cover of every American release, and you'll see Miramax's name either at the top on in the bottom right hand corner. The only exceptions are Echo Bridge's initial Blu-ray release (https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Godzilla-vs-Biollante-Blu-ray/24467/#), which has Miramax's name on the back, samwe with the 8 Monster Movie Collection DVD (https://www.blu-ray.com/dvd/8-Movie-Monster-Pack-DVD/123448/)

Also, on Miramax's own Wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miramax#Post-Disney_era_(2010%E2%80%932019)), it says and I quote:

"On February 11, 2011, Miramax entered a home entertainment agreement with Lions Gate Entertainment and StudioCanal to distribute over 550 titles from the Miramax library on DVD and Blu-ray. Lionsgate will handle distribution in the United States, with StudioCanal handling European distribution.[20][21] On February 17, they struck a deal with Echo Bridge Home Entertainment to distribute the company's additional 251-title catalog domestically on DVD/Blu-ray.[22][23] The latter deal expired in October 2014,[24] after which Lionsgate expanded its existing deal to include Echo Bridge's collection of the library; thus, Lionsgate has full home entertainment distribution of the entire Miramax library in North America.[25] From 2012 to 2017, Warner Home Video had assumed Japanese home entertainment distribution of the Miramax catalog."

Sources referenced in that paragraph:

https://www.bloomberg.com/businessweek/ap/financialnews/D9LALCDG3.htm

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/Lionsgate-Studiocanal-and-prnews-2517243937.html?x=0

https://variety.com/article/VR1118032499?x=0

https://www.thewrap.com/echo-bridge-distribute-251-miramax-titles-dvd-blu-ray-24845/

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=8940436&postcount=53%7C

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/columns/my-two-cents/100914_1230

So, it seems that guy on the Toho Kingdom forums is right. If you can find evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.--JFP (talk) 23:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

It seems legit. I wouldn't mind reverting the licensor back to Miramax. Armegon (talk) 04:00, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Explaining the names of a few minor monsters

The "Oodako" (大ダコ) from King Kong vs. Godzilla is literally just a giant octopus. "Oodako" simply means "giant (or big) octopus" in Japanese.

Hence why edited its name from "the Oodako" to "the Oodako (Giant Octopus)".

Maybe it should just be called "Giant Octopus" with a note saying that "Oodako" means "Giant Octopus" in Japnaese. Or the other way around.

[ Source: https://www.tohokingdom.com/kaiju/giant_octopus.htm]

Same thing with the "Ookondoru" (大コンドル) from Ebirah, Horror of the Deep. "Ookondoru" literally means "giant (or big) condor" in Japanese. Plus "Kondoru" is simply a Japanese transliteration of the Western term "Condor" (unlike "Oodako", which derives from "Tako", the Japanese word for "Octopus". When why in "King Kong vs. Godzilla", when the "Oodako" attacks, people yell "Tako", and one of the main characters think they're talking about his boss Mr. Tako).

Confusingly, when the "Ookondoru" makes a cameo (via stock from Ebirah) in All Monsters Attack, in the original Japanese language version, its called "Oowashi" (大ワシ , literally "Giant Eagle" in Japanese) by the character Ichiro.

[ source: https://www.tohokingdom.com/kaiju/giant_condor.htm ; https://www.tohokingdom.com/kaiju/giant_eagle.html ]

The giant sea louse in Return of Godzilla is unnamed in the film itself.

But official Japanese guidebooks give it the name ショッキラス (which when directly romanized is spelled "Shokkirasu"). English language fans seemed to have settled on "Shockirus" being its "proper" name [ source: https://www.tohokingdom.com/kaiju/shockirus.htm ]

Hence why I changed it from "Giant Sea Lice" to "Shockirus (Giant Sea Lice)"

--JFP (talk) 16:30, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Pronouns

Historically, as Godzilla is asexual the plots have used gender-neutral pronouns. I would like to get a consensus on using this as this has been changed recently Alaney2k (talk) 13:29, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I believe the term is agender, not asexual. The source listed is from un-offical novel from 2003, not a official encyclopedia. Plus, the character has been referred to as Minilla's adoptive father & papa, as well as with masculine titles such as king & god. It probably depends on incarnation of the character, plus there's probably a "nuance" in translation that we're not getting. Monsieur X (talk) 14:19, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Agender is a human term, not a biological one. Certainly the various references to Godzilla in movies and media has varied between "he" and "it". But, I think, only Minilla has ever been described as a male the "son" in the films. People use pronouns as they wish and by convention but not , etc. Since we don't really know, I think it is more appropriate to use gender-neutral or use the names of the kaiju. Even in the Legendary films, they refer to Godzilla as an "alpha" not an "alpha male." But I am mainly interested in consensus for consistency. Alaney2k (talk) 15:29, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

The majority of people use male pronouns when discussing Godzilla & some of other major monsters in series, such as King Ghidorah. Unless stated otherwise, such as with explicitly female monsters like Mothra, Rodan's mate & Biollante. There's also the various female members of Godzilla's species seen in spin-offs that act as mates or love-interests. Monsieur X (talk) 16:53, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I say we only use gender pronouns where the monsters are explicitly referred to as "he/him" or "she/her" i.e. the Hollywood films, the 1956 GKOTM, and Godzilla 1985. The Japanese films use gender-neutral pronouns, so the film articles would need to reflect this as well per WP:FILMPLOT: "describes the events of the original general release". As for the Godzilla and Godzilla (franchise) articles, I believe we should go with gender neutral pronouns since all the information provided is based on the Japanese versions and not the dubs, sans the Hollywood films. Armegon (talk) 20:20, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Confirmation of Reiwa era as an official moniker

In Toho's official stand for Comic Con 2019 a panel listing the series' filmography lists the 2016-2018 films as "Reiwa Era". This is the clearest photo I have found, from a blogger's web page. I have added a citation to the Reiwa Era section of the filmography. --Joseon1 (talk) 19:57, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Collage of tiny smudges

The person who made the collage of Toho Godzilla images had a nice idea, and it was probably useful when it linked to a full-size version. But it's non-free media, so it had to be reduced in size to a thumbnail of thumbnails, and that point it stopped bein useful. The rationale for using this non-free image in the article is "To provide visual identification of the various incarnations of Toho's Godzilla", but the thumbnails are so small it quite frankly fails at that. It's too small to tell them apart and it doesn't even give the reader an idea of what Godzilla looks like. It's a collection of tiny smudges and makes this article look like a Geocities fan page. If you actually want "to provide visual identification of the various incarnations of Toho's Godzilla", it should be replaced by an image that actually does that, because this does not. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:17, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

"Tiny smudges" seems hyperbolic. The image is not that difficult on the eyes and it achieves its goal just fine, despite the size. The goal is not just to illustrate the various redesigns but to also visually show readers how far back the character goes and how much he's progressed since the franchise's inception. Armegon (talk) 01:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

How many films?

"The film franchise consists of 36 films; 32 produced by Toho, one produced by TriStar Pictures, and four produced by Legendary Pictures."

This adds up to 37. Geniuswaitress (talk) 17:47, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Godzilla

Wait what about everyone else in the series/franchise like mothra,Rodman, 68.129.63.120 (talk) 19:09, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

The culture impact and guest appearances shouldn’t be in this article

The culture impact and guest appearances shouldn’t really be listed in this article as they are not directly part of the franchise. A better place are the pages Godzilla in popular culture and Godzilla#culture impact. I already tried to remove this information but was reverted by User:Armegon and told to reach a consensus. UnkreativeFrog (talk) 22:21, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah. You may be partially right, hence why I started re-editing and copyediting the Television section myself. It's not necessary to go into detail of Godzilla's various appearances, that's what the Godzilla in Pop Culture article is for; but it should at least be briefly noted since it is a part of Godzilla's appearance in American television. I'm currently working on that at the moment. Armegon (talk) 22:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

the Music and culture Impact sections should also be moved UnkreativeFrog (talk) 23:23, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

It seems they've already been moved. For the franchise article, we should just edit and summarize what's already there similar to how we would summarize an article's lead. Armegon (talk) 23:28, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Ticket sales

Should we add info about the Japanese films ticket sales/attendance? Flower Pot Zip (talk) 19:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Support: but it needs to be attributed to a reliable source, of course. Armegon (talk) 23:25, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Son of Kong as a Monster Costar

At least for now shouldn’t likely Son of Kong be in the Godzilla x Kong costar section. 0Detail-Attention215 (talk) 01:10, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

No. Jumping the gun. Not confirmed to be Kong's son. Armegon (talk) 01:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

The Rotten Tomatoes links are misleading

The "Return of Godzilla / Godzilla 1985" section under "Reception" refers to Rotten Tomatoes rating of the latter, butchered American version. Rotten Tomatoes does not separate The Return of Godzilla (a good movie), from the American version, Godzilla 1985 (a terrible movie).

It shouldn't be linked to or score provided as it's not the same film. Recut with bad dubs or new American actors added etc. 103.205.247.226 (talk) 09:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Done! Armegon (talk) 14:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this really suits.

Because now there is Godzilla 1985 listed under Toho Productions, when it's really more of an American, New World Pictures production. It's also inline, in a chronologically ordered list, implicitly comparing this movie to the surrounding movies in the list. But it's a butchered american version of a Toho Production.

I think preferable would be to list it as "Return of Godzilla", and leave the ratings blank as this movie does not have a rating on either Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic. Listing "Godzilla 1985" under American Productions would then make more sense, however there are then other Americanised Godzilla films which could/should be added.

To complicate this, it's actually not clear which other Toho productions are shown with a metacritic or rotten tomatoes rating that is actually for the American version. "Godzilla (1954)" for example cites the Godzilla 1956 page on Rotten Tomatoes, which is for the American release with changed scenes, new scenes and characters, and dubbed; not the original Japanese 1954 film. 103.205.247.226 (talk) 04:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the best option is to simply remove the "Toho/American productions" sub-section labels and simply merge the Toho/American productions under one table. Another problem is that the scores for even the Japanese films don't articulate if they're reviews for the original Japanese versions or the English dubbed re-edited releases. Armegon (talk) 23:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, if it's unclear which scores are for American vs Japanese versions of the films, maybe it makes more sense to remove the section entirely, as the scores themselves aren't a reliable source of critical reception? 14.203.233.108 (talk) 00:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I put a sentence under the title 'Toho productions' to indicate the table includes American versions of Toho originals. Any discrepancies between versions can be noted with notes. The older movies' scores are understood to not be similar to reviews since RT was inaugurated. As well, even today, critics around the world may watch releases that are dubbed or sub-titled. That is beyond anyone's control. And is not critical, as the precise score doesn't matter that much. The relative score is important though. As for Return of and Godzilla 1985, simply mention no RT score is available for Return of. Alaney2k (talk) 04:06, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Just a point of clarification, I'm not questioning when it's a score/review of a dubbed/subtitled film. I don't speak Japanese, I watch with subtitles.

I'm questioning when the scores are inclusive of reviews of the American re-releases. These American re-releases consist of new footage shot with American actors, re-edited scenes, changed story-lines dubbed over the top etc. I.e., a different movie.

While I agree the relative score is far more important than a precise score, these scores can't ever be considered relative, as not all the Toho films had an American re-release (and where they did, the amount of changes is different). 103.205.247.226 (talk) 09:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Review aggregators is an essay about RT that everyone may like to read. Commander Keane (talk) 10:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

What you're referring to as "American re-releases with new footage" are the "Americanization" releases and only three underwent that type of localization: Godzilla, King of the Monsters!, the US release of King Kong vs. Godzilla, and Godzilla 1985. The rest of the Godzilla films were dubbed and underwent minor alterations. There's already discrepancies noted for these particular releases with new footage. Both GKOTM! and G85 have their own articles and own RT scores separate from the Japanese versions. I already added a footnote to KKVG that points out that the reviews are for the US version. Armegon (talk) 23:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)