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Parsture

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Goats can do very well on poor land that is not suitable for other domesticated herbivores like sheep and cattle. However, does this apply to goat farming? I would have thought that a goat farmer would try to provide the most nutritious paster for his/her goats but I'm thinking: their are many parts of the world were goats have no option but to forage low grade vegetation, making them ideal livestock for that locality (and believe you me -goats 'will' eat anything given half a chance). So, am I right to think this is another plus for the goat that should be added to the article? I am wavering, because way up in northern latitudes one has the North Ronaldsay sheep that survive on seaweed. Yet, one can't come out with a sweeping statement and say that sheep (in general) have the advantage over cows in that they can survive on seaweed. Also think, it is not so much the quality of the vegetation as the acreage available for each goat and the verity of vegetation to satisfy its dietary needs that is important . Any thoughts on squaring this circle?--Aspro (talk) 22:54, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Aspro, I remember reading something about goats being used on low quality grazing land and this was an advantage over cattle grazing. You could check the last couple of references I have added to put an RS to your post above. DrChrissy (talk) 16:18, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have added related content to the lead. DrChrissy (talk) 16:59, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
An example of why I have to take a Wiki-break and think about it. Goats are browsers not grazers. Pedantic perhaps to the average Wiki reader but perhaphs an important consideration to a goat farmer. It needs too, to be put in terms that the average reader can assimilate by reading simple prose. My mind is too messed up right now, with having to converse (outside Wikipedia) in technical and political jargon. I have to take a break, in order to return to being that little 14 year old boy that called a spade a spade, because it was a spade.--Aspro (talk) 16:54, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, another thing I was racking my distant memories about (regarding pasture), was a weed known by keen gardeners as the 'tansy'. Now have found some goat keeping websites that have give it the common name known to farmers and horse owners as the ragwort and is toxic. These web sites however, appear to be run by ordinary folk, that aim to encourage and support other ordinary folk to keep goats. i.e. they don't list scientific references but just pass on folk-wisdom of good goat husbandry – so are not WP RS. The gist of what they are saying though -rings true. Ragwort, although is less toxic (they say) to goats is still, poisonous. Goats however, nibble the buds and stop this plant from seeding – so the goats appear to modify their own ecological environment. So, when I was a child and before the milkman had an electric milk float and most local deliveries arrived by horse and cart. Was this the reason that horse paddocks had goats – to keep this weed under control ? Have googled many hours on this now and can't find any good reference. Maybe, it was too obvious in those days for goats to get a mention.--Aspro (talk) 17:01, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do you use GoogleScholar? I typed in a search for "ragwort" and "goat" and the first hit it came up with was Goeger, D. E., Cheeke, P. R., Schmitz, J. A., & Buhler, D. R. (1982). Toxicity of tansy ragwort (Senecio jacobaea) to goats. American journal of veterinary research, 43(2), 252-254. I'll read this and edit it into the article a little later. DrChrissy (talk) 17:28, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that DrChrissy. I hadn’t gotten on to searching GoogleScholar as I am still in the processes of walking-down-memory-lane in search of familiar (to me) key- words and terms. GS is the obvious way to go I agree. Yet, with other personal domestic issues on my mind right now, and lacking your in-depth knowledge of physiology/toxicology. I’m worried that without this knowledge - just doing a GS search (on my part) may filter out some old, poorly done research studies. I need to wait until summer is over and the long winter nights draw in (when the telephone stops ringing to say “were having a barbecue, come over - as we have lots of your favourite beer ”), (and when there isn't anything interesting to watch on TV), (and when I've cleaned out all the leaves from the cutter and given the lawn its last cut of the year, etc.,) and so have time to read through all the bumf on GS and separate out the good from the mediocre. The other good thing that has come from reading these amateur sites, is the inference, than mankind/womankind made a leap forward in animal husbandry when they realized that if you keep a concentration of live stock over-winter when they will require additional stored fodder. One doesn’t simply place it on the ground, where they will certainly urinate and defecate upon it. Hence the very important invention of the manger. Goats like the hight of mangers – as they are mainly browsers and not grazers. A 'goat farmer' will mostly likely employ a few. This is just one of those seemingly small advances in human husbandry that give embodiment to “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.” I place these ramblings of mine here, on this talk page, as an "aide-mémoire" for when I find the time again and for any other editors that are looking for clues on how this article might be expanded. Thanks again.--Aspro (talk) 14:07, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I often use thoughts generated by non-RS sites to motivate me to find RS sources of the same information, so don't be afraid of using this approach. Your thoughts above reminded me of some of those amazing photos of goats climbing into trees to browse...I've included one in the article. DrChrissy (talk) 17:15, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ecological Fitness

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Also, goats appear more hardy than modern-day cattle/sheep/dogs/cats/horses/etc so need less veterinary visits and I can’t find any reference that their milk has ever contained bovine TB either. So if you bath in it, like Cleopatra did in asses milk, it doesn't need to be past-your-eyes or even up-to your chin for it to be safe to drink without heat treatment.--Aspro (talk) 22:54, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Update: there have been a 'few' reported cases recently of TB Tuberculosis by the Goat Veterinary Society, when once goats were thought not to suffer from TB. So Cleopatra had better hold her breath as the milk gets poured in! As cattle originally contracted TB from homo sapiens maybe the latter needs to be culled rather than the badger?
The ones that worry me in TB transmission are domestic cats! DrChrissy (talk) 16:08, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Forgive me if I don't answer this directly. As I don't think this is of any use to the the article but is never less, both a very good point and question topic. Yes, logic does suggest that many a mammal is capable of spreading TB. It would be interesting to know, why up until recently, goats were thought to not to suffer from it. We think (believe) that TB in humans ( the white plague) was due to overcrowding (and I can readily accept that without out without scientific proof because in live in an area (Southall) where TB is now classed as an epidemic (in the true medical sense)). It is due (so it is said) by immigrants coming from third world countries which go on to live live in very crowed cheap accommodation. Going back to look at domesticated cows. Unlike goats, they herd in big groups in the field at night together and mussel one and other . So if one cow has BTB it can easy pass it on to another. Another point ( which I hasten to add is not a scientific study at all – just practical). One can pass through a heard of cows at night with no more than a moo here or there (if your lucky) since they they are familiar with humans. But a badger is viewed the same way as a dog. Cows don't like them approaching. Although cows no longer have horns ( since there all now budded) they do have hooves and young badgers quickly learn how to keep their distance. Where as a nanny only has her kids around her. To other readers: If you're on holiday and take your dog and find that the cows adjacent to the footpath are getting aggressive. Let go of the dog's lead. It will run away out of danger fast enough but if you try and pick it up, the cows will still go for the dog -which you may then be holding -and that can put you in hospital. This is not a defense of the badger, regarding the spread of BTB, rather than a suggestion, that it is out our changing husbandry of animals , over, crowding, movement of livestock from farm to farm and the more readily available access to vets to diagnose TB that has bought this problem to light.. But the point I wish to make, is that one should not worry about in TB transmission in domestic cats. Be aware of the possibility by all means (yet think Sutton's law - think horses not zebras). To other readers please note: this is not to suggest that TB is to be taken lightly. DrChrissy will confirm, that even in this modern day and age, TB can be difficult to treat and is better not contracted in the first place. Therefore, I can take her worry about cats (et al) on board as a legitimate concern. --Aspro (talk) 14:22, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Aspro - my comment about cats was a concern about transmitting between animals TB on farms (in the way the badger is blamed), not really transmission in the family home (although there have been documented cases of this). In my real life I am a scientist. About 5 years ago, I submitted a research proposal to Defra to determine how often badgers come into contact with cattle - even this most basic piece of research is missing. DrChrissy (talk) 17:18, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for making that clearer. I was looking at the widest possible angle. Ie. Cats may also pass it on (as a vector) to other animals than then infect others but as you say, the most basic of research has not been done. Sometimes, a non- human vectors can diminish the viability of a pathogen to infect humans but then we have history to show that for some reason Yersinia pestis suddenly devastate Europe and maybe because a new animal vector increased its potency (rats could not have spread it – it was travelling on average six mile per day and rats don't have that diem range). So it is from that wider angle I was looking. Think, I may take a Wiki-break from this article for a while (ah, one can almost hear DrChrissy exclaiming “phew, thank goodness for that”), because whilst Wikipedia only requires verifiability and not truth – much of what I have learnt now appears to be just wishful thinking orthodoxy and in that I am not comfortable with that anymore. As you point out much basic research has not been done and thus good RS will be hard to come by. Thus, to contribute to this article usefully, I am going to have to think about it some more in order to side-step received orthodox and erroneous options without committing the sin of Original Research/interpretation/synthesis, etc..--Aspro (talk) 16:20, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Aspro, if you do take a break, there will be no sigh of relief from me. You are clearly an intelligent and well meaning editor and the project needs as many of these as possible. We may not always agree with each other - but wouldn't the world be boring if we all did! I hope to see you around. DrChrissy (talk) 18:05, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If Google is you friend, there are load of examples. Dog walker trampled by cows in North Wales speaks of ordeal],. Badgers may not spread TB to cattle through direct contact. So it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to suss out that the major vector -is moving cattle from farm to farm- not Brock. I started out by saying, I wasn’t defending the badger- but 'the' government appears to choosing it's scientists to support the partly-line in order to maintain EEC subsidiaries to support and compensate them (for culling & slaughtering cattle that show 'positive' on tests but which may not have TB in the first place) regardless of the science showing that is modern bad farm practise that is spreading BTB. This costs us tax payers (you -me) many millions each year . Why not simply regulate cattle movements. The Soviet Union, at one time , would not let its citizenship travel freely , but UK cows can can be transported any where - at any time. Even a horses or pony now requires a passport which is more strict than that of a cow (and even they are counterfeited right left and centre). Bring in regulations, even though the Members of Parliament (MP's) may have may have conflicting interests in agriculture and benefit personally from the subsidies which us the tax payer are paying for...--Aspro (talk) 15:28, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Quote:
If you feel threatened, the association recommends you let go of your dog's lead: "Cows see dogs as a much greater threat than humans, and a dog free from its lead should be able to escape." How dangerous are cows?.--Aspro (talk) 15:53, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WP articles often have a section titled Further reading and the Goat Veterinary Society maybe eligible. And I can't believe it !!! There is a even a book entitled Raising Goats For Dummies but I will have to leave that for someone else to add -as I can't bring myself to do it. I lack the sort of will power required. What will this book publishing company company come out with next – How to keep Mounting Goats for instance. The mind boggles.--Aspro (talk) 00:36, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops, a Freudian slip perhaps but I meant Mountain Goats (must have watched too many Hammer Horror movies). [1] . Goat of Mendes--Aspro (talk) 12:29, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Goats as pets

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I'm not convinced the section "Goats as pets" belongs on here. Goat farming occurs for products such as dairy, meat and fibre. Goats as pets are usually reared for human pleasure. I suggest this section is moved to Goat or perhaps even as a stub for the start of a new article. DrChrissy (talk) 19:53, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I was hesitating and vacillating between which of the two articles to add it to. Creating a new stub appears to be a better option. Therefore, pray thee, give me a few days until the good lord grants me time enough to reorder his universe Wikipedia.--Aspro (talk) 01:23, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just had a go at creating Keeping goats as pets stub. Ah. The Lord works in mysterious ways – the building surveyor hasn't turned up -so I was sitting here, twiddling my thumbs, and didn't want the devil to find work for idle hands and their ten digits. --Aspro (talk) 11:51, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering if the stub should simply be 'Goats as pets'?--Aspro (talk) 12:08, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Update: now redirects to Goats as pets.--Aspro (talk) 13:51, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear. Buttercups Sanctuary for Goats has been nominated for a speedy deletion.--Aspro (talk) 18:05, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Buttercups Sanctuary for Goats

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Someone has just whispered into my ear, that as Buttercups Sanctuary for Goats charity status was granted by the Charity Commission for England and Wales it is also an educational organization by its very remit. Published papers on the research done there confirm this. Thus, Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#A7 the A7 tag can 'not' be applied. I created the article, so therefore, can not remove this tag for speedy deletion myself. Is anyone willing to double check the validity this tag ?--Aspro (talk) 19:55, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Done and dusted. Tag now removed.--Aspro (talk) 16:12, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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