Talk:Glossary of rugby union terms

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Untitled

For terms that need to be added see User:Ganesh s86/Sandbox.GordyB 12:56, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ball not released

When the ball becomes trapped in a pile-up of players, a scrum is awarded to the attacking team if the ball is in contact with the ground and to the defending team if it is held up off the ground.

Ummm, no. Firstly "off the ground" and "on the ground" are not the criteria -- it's whether the ball became trapped in a ruck or a maul. Secondly, the "attacking team" does not get the ball after a ruck, the team moving forward do ("attacking team" is determined solely by which half the play is in). The "defending team" do not get the ball after a maul, the team which did not take it in get it. Thirdly, is this really called "ball not released"? I'd say that term applied more often to failure of the ball carrier to release the ball after a tackle. -- GWO 06:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yuck

OK, I've tried to remove the most egregious wrongness, but this page is still all kinds of awful.

"Red card" should point to "Ordered off"; "Yellow card" and "Sin bin" to "Caution".
You can't have a tackle when a players not brought to ground...

Having said that, the sheer number of basic law misconceptions does explain why players are so frequently baffled by decisions. -- GWO (A Ref)

I think the question should be whether the terms should reflect usage or the correct definitions as per the laws of the game. I prefer common usage with a note of what the correct term is.GordyB 11:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are serious problems with that; suppose we define a tackle using the common usage of "whenever someone is held". Then a wikipedian adds a comment (elsewhere) that someone who is tackled must release the ball (a true fact). Except now, anyone reading the wikipedia page and trying to apply it while watching the RWC, will reach the conclusion that the game makes no sense. Let's use the proper terms, and where incorrect colloquialism exists, mention it, but state that they are common usage. -- GWO —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gareth Owen (talk • contribs) 18:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anybody will be confused by red / yellow card or sin bin. That's what commentators say even if they are not the terms in the law book.GordyB 21:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough Sin Bin, Yellow Card etc... I don't feel at all strongly about. I've added the proper terms, but left the common usages pretyy-much-untouched. -- GWO 06:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Haka

I think it is correct to describe the All-Black haka as a specific type of haka. As I understand it there are many different types of haka and the All Black one is just the most famous (even then the All Blacks vary their haka from time to time).GordyB 09:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are several types that have been used over the years. The main ones are Ka Mate, and the "new" one is Kapa o Pango. - Shudde ^talk 10:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I rewrote the original Haka bit, based entirely on Haka and Haka of the All Blacks. The point I was trying to make was that there was more than one AB Haka as Shudde says above. -- GWO 12:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To me, it sounds like the Haka is something that is solely performed at rugby matches when in fact, it is a traditional Maori style dance which is famous outside NZ through rugby. It's like calling "Sweet Chariot" a rugby song, it is but it is also sung by people with no connection to rugby.GordyB 17:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cautioned

I don't think the current definition of cautioned is correct. Currently it says "A player who deliberately or repeatedly infringes the laws is cautioned, and shown a yellow card. A cautioned player is suspended from playing for ten minutes." Yet I hear commentators all the time saying that a player or team is getting cautioned. This is *never* followed by a yellow card unless they commit the same offence again (and even then sometimes they don't get a yellow card). I don't know where the current definition comes from, but I don't think it's correct. - Shudde ^talk 08:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"10.2 UNFAIR PLAY

(a) Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any law of the game, or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off. After a caution a player is temporarily suspended for a period of ten minutes playing time. After a caution, the the player commits the same or similar offence, the player must be sent off. Penalty: Penalty Kick -- IRB "Laws of the Game of Rugby Union". Law 10, "Foul Play"

You should, of course, feel free to add the common (incorrect) usage. But please don't delete the correct one. -- GWO 09:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Needs to be read in conjunction with Section c)

(c) Repeated infringements: standard applied by referee.

When the referee decides how many offences constitute repeated infringement, the referee must always apply a strict standard in representative and senior matches. When a player offends three times the referee must caution that player.

The referee may relax this standard in junior or minor matches, where infringements may be the result of poor knowledge of the laws or lack of skill.

i.e. in community rugby, the referee is free to caution and not suspend a player. Only in International & representative matches are the referee's hands tied and there must be a Yellow Card. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.203.250.250 (talk) 09:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's simply wrong. It's only the "Repeated mean three times" that applies at the top level. At lower levels, the ref gets to decide what constitutes "repeated". Within Law, a telling off without a card is called an "admonishment". A caution is synonymous with a suspension. Search the Law book for "caution" and you'll see that every time it appears it is in conjunction with "and temporarily suspended".

(The exception is 6.A.8(d) : "When the referee cautions or sends off the offender, the referee must whistle a second time when the penalty kick or penalty try is awarded."). But here "caution and sent off" are used together to signify that a naughty player has just been shown a card. -- GWO 09:28, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I feel I should point out that I don't go round quoting Laws in real life, even when refereeing. I've never said "admonishment" when "a right bollocking" would do. But I do think that an encyclopedia should use the correct terms. -- GWO 09:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree. There's a definitions section in the LoTG and neither Cautioned nor Admonishment are defined. In their absence, unless the Law specifies "and temporarily suspended" the referee's hands are not tied. (The IRB has looked at this in the past and has always backed away from restricting the referee's options.)

But the Laws never say "cautioned" without "and temporarily suspended". That's my point. If "cautioned" means "told off" what does "admonished or cautioned" mean? Hands are not tied because, with a very few exceptions the ref is given precisely that option. -- GWO 06:56, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See also this [1], in particular the section below Checklist 22 on page 20 (page 38 according to page numbering):

When a player is cautioned, a yellow card must be shown and the player

temporarily suspended.

That's the IRB's on referee best-practice guide. -- GWO —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 07:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Useful document (I wonder why I've never been shown in before in 3 course, 3 exams and many society meetings...?). But look on page 35 - the subject heading: CAUTIONS, TEMPORARY SUSPENSION & SEND OFF (Yellow and Red Cards). There are three elements in that heading, not two. Also the section begins:

Never give a general caution. This restricts...

A referee can't give a "general yellow card", so in this context, "Caution" must mean "warning". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.203.250.250 (talk) 08:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I see your point. That's a valid reading of the heading. But I'd argue that that arguing on the existence of the comma in "Cautions, Temporary Suspensions and Red Cards" argument is considerably less compelling than

When a player is cautioned, a yellow card must be shown and the player temporarily suspended.

That's pretty unequivocal. Especially given that paranthetical comment after your heading "(Yellow and Red Cards)". Doesn't that sound like "Caution" is something that falls into the category "Yellow and Red Cards"?

Is it not an equally reasonable reading to say that that section is about managing the cautioning procedure (talking player/skipper and then showing the card) and then managing the suspension period ("go stand under the posts, you fiendish reprobate").

I've never seen that excellent document at meetings either. Weird, as its clearly good stuff. -- GWO 10:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's 100% clear that a caution is the same as a yellow card. Certainly seems counter-intuitive that a caution is not a warning and is instead a form of punishment. However even if a caution is a yellow card, the common usage (with fans and commentators) seems to mean a warning not a yellow card. - Shudde ^talk 22:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly seems counter-intuitive that a caution is not a warning and is instead a form of punishment.

It does, but its perhaps worth noting that that is also the usage in soccer. i.e. "Player X picked up a caution" means "player X got booked". -- GWO 10:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New terms

I've added terms from the rugby union terminology cat. I'm not sure that all of them are used in ru. For example I deleted "Fair catch". If you see any that I have missed then delete them.

I am also not sure about Maori sidestep. Is this term all that common or was it just a throw-away quip?GordyB 13:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Torpedo punt - never heard it used in rugby union. Thoughts?GordyB 13:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto. Never heard it in rugby union. In rugby, nearly every punt spirals round its major axis. FWIW, there was a style of place kicking called "torpedo" where the ball was angled sharply away from the kicker and towards the post but it seems to have fallen out of favour in the 70s (I have a book from that time with Phil Bennett demonstrating the art). -- GWO 15:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't a fair catch a mark? - Shudde ^talk 22:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In American football it is, but it's not a term I've heard used in rugby.GordyB 23:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've read about the term, but I think it's archaic now. - Shudde ^talk 01:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My 1958 copy of the Laws describe a "fair catch" as "when a player catches a ball direct from a kick, knock-on or throw forward by one of the opposing team if at the same time the catcher makes a mark on the ground with his heel and exclaims 'Mark'." I think that qualifies as an archaic version of a mark,. -- GWO 09:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the question is whether we should includea archaisms or focus on modern usage. I think "Goal from mark" is okay even though they haven't existed for a long time but I don't think we need "fair catch".GordyB 10:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ruck inspector

Deleted this (twice) because it seems to have come from here [2]. Somebody's in-joke ought not to be here.GordyB 16:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In fairness the term is used to a fair degree by Irish sports commentators and has begun to appear further afield. Who knows, it might make the OED first. GR 17:36, 25 September 2008 (BST)

Old names for positions

"Out-half" still used in Ireland: "PATRICK LAMBIE, the new Springbok out-half"

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/locks-must-duck-and-dive-to-break-eben-3290096.html

three-quarters
five-eighths
first five-eighth
second five-eighth

--Nat (talk) 06:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]