Talk:Glossary of Japanese words of Portuguese origin

Naming

Under well-established convention, this page should be named "List of Japanese words of Portuguese origin".

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=List+of+English+words+of&fulltext=Search

--Paul Richter 15:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. The reason for changing the name back to the original one should show up in the history of the page, but in case it doesn't, the reason that I changed the name back is because I hope to expand this page into more than just a list. The renaming was extremely hasty - it happened only a few minutes after the page was created. Pages under development should not be recategorized as lists as soon as they are created. Please give this page a chance to grow before doing that kind of thing. --DannyWilde 03:15, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Having said that, I have just checked the history and I can't actually find my own comment about the move (I'm sure it's there somewhere), so excuse me for saying that, perhaps my reasons were not clear. However, let me add that I'm not against renaming in line with conventions. For example "Japanese words of Portuguese origin" or something would be OK with me. I mostly objected to "List of ...", and I renamed it back to the old name just out of laziness, in that it meant less fiddling with redirects. As I said, I want to expand it into a proper article about the words, rather than have a list. Thanks for tolerating this less than perfect article for the time being. --DannyWilde 03:32, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Shabon

Shabon sounds more like old Spanish xabón (modern jabón) than Portuguese sabão.

kanji and ateji

The information listed here is full of errors. Some of the "kanji" listed in the table are, obviously, not kanji at all, but katakana transliterations. Some of the kanji used for these words are not ateji as claimed here, but are in fact of Chinese origin retro-applied to these words. For one, the kanji for miira/mirra/mummy, 木乃伊, was used in ancient Chinese documents well before the Portuguese' landing in Japan. The Chinese usage was a transliteration based on a Persian language, if I remember correctly. Similarly, pan/麺麭, tabacco/煙草, saboten/仙人掌, all existed in Chinese prior to their usage in Japan, and are in anyway not suitable for use as ateji due to their pronunciation.

Considering the information is "full of errors", your edits are remarkably pathetic attempt to fix the situation. The only actual errors you've pointed out are two small ones: first, the use of the word "ateji" to describe the use of kanji which were added to the words after they had been adopted, and second, the name "kanji" in the column. Why do you make such a wild statement like the information is "full of errors" without attempting to justify it or correct the supposed multiple errors which you have not demonstrated to exist? --Erasmus Quasar 06:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, once I remove the use of "ateji" and "kanji", I've eliminated the errors I described. As I pointed out, the article was full of errors precisely because it suggested that all the Japanese listed were kanji, which they were not, and all the kanji listed as ateji, which they were not. Yes, I could have gone in a removed all the errors, but I thought that those information (the non-kanji katakana and the non-ateji kanji) were valuable and removing them simply because they were erroneously labeled would be a shame, so I simply remove the erroneous labels. Is that satisfactory? Uly 21:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"Introduced Christian ideas and things"

There must be a better word than 'things', surely. I would be bold and replace it myself... but I realised I can't think of one. I was going to replace it with 'inventions', but it's a pretty specific word and I'm not sure enough that it fits in the article to put it in there. --Last Malthusian 04:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

What about Arigato/Obrigado (Thank you)?

My contribution to the "Arigato" section of this article was recently reverted by user Oda Mari. This contribution was made in good faith, however Oda Mari incorrectly identified it as vandalism and reverted it. Please see the Wikipedia article on Wikipedia Vandalism, specifically the section "What is not Vandalism". It will be obvious to anyone who reads this section that my contribution was not vandalism. Oda Mari also did not site any sources as her basis for reverting it, and in fact deleted the reliable source I provided to substantiate my contribution. If after 3 days no valid reason is provided to discredit the source I provided, I will restore my contribution. If it turns into an edit war, the matter will be brought to the attention of the administrators. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.113.82.47 (talk) 07:51, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't see the ref. you added. But it is obviously an author made a mistake. Not everything in a book is correct. Your addition was a widely spread misinformation. See this and its linked pages. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 16:07, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

--- The link you gave me leads to a self-published webpage not subject to peer review and is thus not a reliable source. The source I gave is a book published by Routledge, a company that has been publishing books since 1836 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Routledge). It is not up to you to decide if the author "obviously made a mistake". If you made the reversion based on your own opinion that a published author is mistaken, then it is considered "original research". A Wikipedia editor's opinion doesn't matter-their job is only to summarize published source material.

Then why don't Japanese dictionaries say the origin is Portuguese? [1] and [2]. Are there any ref. pages or books supporting the ref. you provide? How can you say there is no mistakes in the book? Just because the publisher is an established one? Oda Mari (talk) 10:16, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

---

I previously noticed that the word for "thank you" sounds very similar in japanese and portuguese. It is arigato in Japanse, and obrigado in Portuguese (Plese feel free to correct the spelling of these words).

I once traveled to India, and I have been told that "thank you" is also the term in the local language used to say thank you. And that in the Indian society, there was no such concept of saying thank you for anything before the Christians arrived (because Hindu's just earned everything in their previous lives, and thus they don't have to thank anybody).

So, what is the origin on Japanese word for "thank you"? Was the word brought there by the Jesuits?

• Apperently not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gairaigo#One_gairaigo_misconception A Geek Tragedy 20:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Why did you conclude the above reference is incorrect? As a Japanese native I consider the gairaigo_misconception description to be agreeable. I suppose the Indian case does not always apply to the rest of the world.--Wheetfish 23:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

what if the reverse ocurred ??? what if "Obrigado" only meanth "forced to do something" prior to portuguese going to japan ??? that could explain why the second meaning (thank you) is so different from the first meaning (forced). (.Sotavento (talk) 05:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

"The medial -k- drops out from -aku- resulting in /au/. This then becomes /oː/ via regular phonological rules." - this part is incorrect. the phonetic change did not affect the word as a whole; it affected only the adjective at the first place. but the change goes from katashi to kataki and finally katai - the today's form. and not as written, ending in u. and then the polite form of the compound "arigatai" is used, which is arigatou gozaimasu. arigatou is just a short of the full and polite form arigatou gozaimasu. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%9B%A3%E3%81%84 83.77.54.126 (talk) 01:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

"May have come from Spanish"

Is it necessary to point that out on every word that happens to sound the same in Spanish? The article mentions Portuguese Jesuit influence in Japan, but no Spanish presence in Japan is mentioned. So, why the Spanish reference in the list? Just because of the similarity? -- LodeRunner 00:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

During the Edo period Japan was a closed country until Perry arrived in 1853. The Portugese in the form of the Jesuits got in around the 15th century then effectively "poisoned" the Japanese against other European nations, presumably to ensure a monoply of Japanese trade. The Spanish concentrated their efforts on the Phillipines. --Kro666 17:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

One very greavous misconception (in almost everywhere) is that the "union of the crowns" was either a) a union of the kingdoms of portugal and spain or b) a no consequence situation since both countries were separated , but the truth is that not only both countries (and rememberthat spain was in itself a group of various previous countries) but more importaintly both countries had loose ideas as to what was admissable for its subjects to do ... so we saw portuguese sailors in the service of spain (and vice versa) and many other things ... and religious orders were composed of people from the more varied origins ... And also of great importance ... both portugal and spain had a similar influence in various parts of the world ... But (and to be consistent with the sources) if it is said that the portuguese did one thing (or the spannish , duthc or any other) and no reference is made to the others we should keep with what the sources claim ... another point is ... Sotavento (talk) 05:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Alcohol

I have a printed Japanese dictionary that states that アルコール is actually a borrowing from Dutch (三省堂現代新国語辞典). Somebody might want to edit that. Kcumming 20:35, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be directly derived from the europeans ... keeping with the sources seems to fall on the dutch courtyard. Sotavento (talk) 05:12, 7 December 2008 (UTC)Sotavento (talk) 05:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Spelling

What is the point of having separate columns for "pre-modern Portuguese" and "modern Portuguese"? The article on Japanese words of Dutch origin doesn't have a column for "pre-modern" Dutch. Nor are the differences between "pre-modern Portuguese" and "modern Portuguese" that great, in most cases. FilipeS 15:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm just a reader in here, but here's my say: The two columns should stay, even though there's only a noticeable difference in some of the words. As a native speaker of brazilian portuguese, I wouldn't have a clue of what some of the words in old portuguese would mean, and some of them just look too different from their modern counterpart-- when they have one. So, let them stay. About the "obrigado" discussion, I'd only want to add that, at least down here, obrigado and arigato sound different from each other, thus, I kinda doubt that the origin is the same. Obrigado, in our portuguese, sounds like "oh-bree-GAH-dow", while arigato, if my short knowledge about this is true, is pronunced "ah-ree-gah-TOH"... (people who know to do the IPA thing would be helpful right now)200.98.120.2 04:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It's well known that Arigato does not derive from Obrigado. There is no discussion. You say there is a "noticeable difference" between the old Portuguese and the modern Portuguese words, to the point that you "wouldn't have a clue of what some of the words in old portuguese would mean"?! Could you give some examples of that? FilipeS 23:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure. "Charamela", "jaque", "jibão", and I guess that's it. And there are also the pre-modern portuguese words that quite didn't make it to our times, specially in my case, since I'm from Brazil as I said before, and the metropolitan and colonial versions of portuguese can be very different and tricky sometimes. And OF COURSE there's a discussion about this "obrigado" thing-- look some lines above XD. Abraços, Confusing Text 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Origin of "Tempura"

The article on tempura says that the origin of the word is from the expression "ad tempora cuaresmae". In the present article it is said the origin is the word "tempero". Which is the correct one?

Saw this too just now. Adding contradict-other template accordingly. --Drake Wilson 01:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The two articles no longer contradict each other, so I am removing the contradict-other template.

Interestingly, Tempura offers an additional possible etymology: temprar, apparently meaning to heat or harden in oil. Since it is in need of a citation on Tempura, I do not want to add it to this article just yet. If anybody can offer a source to support or dispute the temprar theory, could they please make the appropriate edits to both articles? --Dave314159 14:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The list is not exhaustive

I believe this list is far from being complete. I can think of at list one word missing such as "misa", from missa (meaning mass, the Christian religious ceremony). Is "pisutoru" from Portuguese or from Dutch Origin?

I just dont think this is very evident, Vietnamese say ( i dont know how to spell it in vietnamese ) they say somthing like, xe bon (sey bon) for soap, that sounds like shapon too, does that mean its of portuguese origin?

Misleading prsentation

The word listed as "brother" (iruman, イルマン・入満・伊留満・由婁漫) does not mean a fraternal brother. The translation from Japanese would be brother-in-Christ. As Christianity is a European construct it is obvious that words related to Christianity are of a foreign origin. Suggesting that the Japanese word for brother is derived from Portuguese is inaccurate and misleading. Japanese for brother (male child of the same parents) is kyoudai (兄弟). --Kro666 17:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC) Irmão is also used in portuguese specificaly to describe a christ folower ... such as a member of the cleric wich clalled themselves "padre" (father in english) while refering to a cleric wich propagated the faith or as "Irmão" (brother in english) which was a monk that lived amongst their peers ... so iruman (probably) refers solely to the later usage of the word (why give a new word to an already established thing such as having a blood related brother ... isn't it ?).Sotavento (talk) 05:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Piri piri is also used to describe something as spicy in Japanese. The word may come from the Portuguese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_birdseye

I strongly doubt "piri piri" is Portuguese in origin. There is a closely related "hiri hiri". A painful sunburn would be described as this as well as a spicy flavor. (A very painful sunburn is "biri biri" which incidentally is also used for getting shocked by electricity.) Also, "piri piri" can indicate a tense but quiet situation which is quite unlike "spiciness". There is a similar example of "pyu" and "hyu". Both indicate a short quick movement but "pyu" is generally used to mean a quicker but shorter burst than "hyu". As "h-" and "p-" sounds are very closely related in Japanese spoken language, "piri piri" likely diverged from "hiri hiri". --Revth (talk) 04:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Piri piri is still today the Portuguese name of a hot sauce based in chili pepper, olive oil or vinegar, and salt.

Piri piri is the correct spelling of the name used in the Portuguese language, namely in Portugal and Mozambique, to describe the African bird's eye chili. Other English language spellings may include pili pili in the Democratic Republic of the Congo or peri peri, deriving from the various pronunciations of the word in parts of Africa.

Since Mozambique was reached before Japan by the Portuguese the theory of reverse adoption doesn't make much sense.

I would also like to propose Arigatō as derived from the Portuguese "Obrigado" and Domo arigato as derived from "Muito obrigado" and arigatai from "Obrigada" the feminine of "obrigado" or in also in informal speech "obrigada" is sometimes used without consideration for the gender, considered an error but often used.

I also note in the list an incoherence with the word subeta and the Portuguese word "espada", it seems extremely close to the word "surrenta" in Portuguese an insulting meaning unwashed person, immund. "Surro" is principally the name given to thick brown oily transpiration mixed with the presence of dirt/dust particles, commonly resulting from hard field work or due to spending a long term without washing (especially formed in high humidity that prevents the evaporation of sweat), so the use of the word seems plausible to be have been used significantly at the time especially in tropical weather (today it has fallen on disuse but is found in common use on the south of Portugal). --79.168.6.93 (talk) 11:44, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

About 'pandoro', 'shōro' and 'shurasuko' in the list

I think using Portugese words for referring to things vernacular to Portugal or Brazil is natural and even inevitable. And if so, do these words have to be in the list? 221.113.47.7 (talk) 00:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're saying. FilipeS (talk) 00:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for replying. I'm afraid my English expression is bad, anyway... I mean, in other point of view, if these words are in the list, then why samba (samba), bosanoba (bossa nova), fado (fado), feijoāda (feijoada), bakaryau (bacalhau), madeira-shu (vinho da Madeira), etc. etc. are not? Ka-kupaci (smells-good) (talk) 02:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I removed the three modern words you pointed out, Ka-kupaci. They don't belong here. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 05:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for quick helping :-) Ka-kupaci (smells-good) (talk) 07:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Kamishimo?

Kamishimo - a type of Japonese shirt from Portuguese Camisa? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.180.8.34 (talk) 22:50, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Kyarameru

Can someone please confirm "kyarameru"? The form with ky- normally indicates it originates from an English style /æ/, doesn't it, suggesting the form cited is from English "caramel". —Felix the Cassowary 21:59, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

It is also called karameru/カラメル and is said the origin is a Portuguese word caramelo. See [3] and its translation. Today kyarameru only means caramel candy and karameru means caramel sauce. Oda Mari (talk) 04:42, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Totan

"塗炭" is not the ateji of "トタン". The word 塗炭 has existed long before the introduction of "tutanaga" and has a completely different meaning—misery, distress, or suffering. "トタン" does not have a written form in Kanji. Geoalchimista (talk) 09:57, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

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Totan (2)

Re: edit note by User:Eirikr in edit 19:03, 20 January 2021:

Ah, I avoided touching etymology of トタン and カルメ焼き because I knew it will become a long quest :-)

Q (Eirikr): should we remove トタン altogether?

A (Wotheina): We shall keep it regardless of its origin, because if we remove it, someone will pop up and add it again. Problem is, the current format is not friendly for entries with plural theories. Well, I'll try.

Q (Eirikr): The phonetics for PR /tutanaga/ → JA /totan/ always struck me as odd.

A (Wotheina): I don't know much about linguistics nor classics, but as a native speaker of modern Japanese, it appears plausible. Many Japanese dialects (including modern standard Japanese) have no [tu], so they have to approximate it by either ト,ツ,トゥ, and the latter two smells like later fashion. /ga/ is homonymous to particle「が」, thus could get omitted due to rebracketing. Well, just my feelings.

Now, if it was zinc made in India and China, and if both Portuguese and Chinese merchants came on the same ship and sold it by similar names of Indic origin, what would such language be called? :-) "Far East lingua franca"? Wotheina (talk) 17:40, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Possible cognates

Techo (sp) and tenjou (jp) are stumblingly similar and both mean roof.

Baño (sp) and benjou (jp) are also very similar and mean toilet. 192.141.246.147 (talk) 06:44, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Let's have a look at the etymologies (origins, derivations, and histories) of the words.

• Spanish techo is derived from Latin tectum, still meaning "roof", in turn derived from Latin verb tegō meaning "I cover".
• Japanese 天井 (tenjō) is derived from Middle Chinese 天井 (then tsjeng^X), referring to a 天 "sky" 井 "well", from the way that the ceiling is above, and the beams of the ceiling were arranged in a shape similar to a wellhead.

→ Wholly unrelated. The underlying meanings do not match ("covering" vs. "sky-well"), nor do the older pronunciations. Any similarity is the result of historical accident.

• Spanish baño is derived from Latin baneum, from Latin balneum, in turn from Ancient Greek βαλανεῖον (balaneîon, "bath; bathing room; bathhouse").
• Japanese 便所 (benjo) is a coinage in Japan of Chinese-derived roots, as a compound of 便 (ben, “convenience, ease”, also meaning “bodily waste; bowel movement”) +‎ 所 (sho, “place”).

→ Wholly unrelated. The underlying meanings do not match ("bathhouse" vs. "ease-place" or "poop-place"), nor do the older pronunciations. Any similarity is the result of historical accident. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

"Ne" in Japanese

Hello! I'd like to propose adding "ne" in Japanese, which is used at the end of sentences. (such as, segoi desu ne?) This originally comes from the Portuguese (Nao e?), or, isn't it? This conjugation is similar to the English "innit." "Ne" in Japanese is used in the exact same fashion, for example, saying, "cool, isn't it?" My Japanese professor in college talked with me about this connection. This is my first time posting to a Wikipedia chat, so please forgive any errors :-) 2400:2650:90E0:2F00:1931:1C2A:C01:DC9C (talk) 06:43, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I wrote a longer reply to a related question in April 2022, over here at the Japanese Stack Exchange.

Here's a brief synopsis.

• The Japanese particle ね (ne) is attested since at least the mid-700s.
• The Portuguese word né is a contraction of não é. I cannot find any dating for when this contraction first appears, but we do know that Portuguese não is from Old Galician-Portuguese non, which was still attested in that form in the 1200s, some four or five centuries later than the Japanese term's first appearance.
• We also know that Portuguese speakers and Japanese speakers first met each other in 1543, another three centuries or so after that.

→ Japanese ね (ne) is wholly unrelated to Portuguese né. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:02, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I read your Japanese Stack Exchange entry. Assuming the research you did there is entirely correct, there is still no way to conclude, from the facts presented alone, that it is "wholly unrelated to Portuguese".

• The fact that the character predates Portuguese contact does not rule out Portuguese influence on its current meaning.
• If anything, the hypothesis of Portuguese influence gains more credence due to the fact that prior to Portuguese contact it had primarily another meaning, and after Portuguese contact it adopted a meaning essentially identical to the Portuguese homophone.

→ If that is the case, then the modern ね is related to Portuguese, if not in origin, but in modern use. --LodeRunner (talk) 20:54, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Add current Japanese word column

@Mikeloco14 —

The ones with crosses that are obsolete and not in use anymore do not mention what is the word currently in use for them. Mikeloco14 (talk) 17:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Rather than tediously restructuring the whole table to add a column for just those few terms with the † marker, I instead added a comment just now in the Notes column. HTH! 😄 ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)