Talk:Glassworks (composition)

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Untitled

If anyone really cares, this is not an article about a "European Classical" recording. Philip Glass is an American composer. I, however, am not experienced enough to change the characterization of this "stub." Could someone inform me how to do it, or do it themselves? Thank you.

Instruments?

I presume this type of coding: "fl, 2 ssx, tsx, bcl, 2hn, vla, vc" describes the instruments used in each movement, but it is not clear what each means. 86.130.22.139 (talk) 02:55, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Flute, 2 soprano saxophones, tenor saxophone, bass cello (or bass clarinet?), 2 horns (French?), viola. Not sure what "vc" is. Perhaps someone of a more musical background than I (I only sing; I don't play an instrument) could identify them more accurately. MXocross (talk) 23:39, 19 November 2012 (GMT) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.115.29.24 (talk)

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Requested move 2 May 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move to "Glassworks (composition)" and retarget Glassworks to Glass production. b uidhe 22:02, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Glassworks (Glass) → Glassworks – Disambiguation is not needed. 188.30.36.94 (talk) 20:40, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~Support~~. Retarget Glassworks to Glass production and move Glassworks (Glass) to Glassworks (composition). Rreagan007 (talk) 21:09, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:00, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~Support~~. 05:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC) This was my bodged !vote 62.165.200.11 (talk) 06:01, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning oppose. I would have guessed that "Glassworks" referred to the manufacturing of glass (which is separate from the distinct process of glassblowing). Glassworks are at least mentioned in Glass production. In fact, I would retarget Glassworks to Glass production, and move this article to Glassworks (album) or Glassworks (composition). BD2412 T 21:47, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It was moved from Glassworks (composition) in February 2017 by User:Triplecaña, but it had been moved there a month before from the bare "Glassworks" by User:In ictu oculi, although the redirect seems never to have been repurposed and I can find no discussion about it.

Although no reason was given in either move's ES, I assumed that "(Glass)" was chosen to follow WP:NCMUSIC's many examples of disambiguation by last name. NCMUSIC gives no explicit guideline for that, but § by last name only implies it.62.165.200.11 (talk) 05:45, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is an unusual situation, where the surname of an individual happens to be the common-noun name of a product. It would be comparable to a metal band called "Metal" releasing an album called "Metalworks", with this being disambiguated as "Metalworks (Metal)". Wikipedia should give clarity to readers, and not compromise that because a composer came up with a clever name for their composition. I would find Glassworks (Glass album) or Glassworks (Glass composition) (or even Glassworks (Philip Glass)) to be improvements over this situation. However, I would reiterate that Glassworks should point to Glass production as the primary topic of the term. BD2412 T 15:34, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, perhaps we should move the composition and delete the "(Glass)" redirect per WP:RFD#D2, "may cause confusion". We can't expect readers to distinguish between "glass" and "Glass" in a disambiguating phrase. Same ed, new IP 188.143.76.193 (talk) 23:43, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The composition is most certainly not the primary topic for Glassworks and the current title is just confusing. Return it to Glassworks (composition) and redirect Glassworks to Glass production as a clear primary redirect. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:12, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: fails the "glassworks" test in Google Books in spades. Restore Glassworks (composition) and redirect Glassworks to Glass production In ictu oculi (talk) 21:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, retarget Glassworks to Glass production. The problem remains then what to do about Glassworks (Glass). Same ed, new IP 188.143.76.193 (talk) 23:43, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- The real point of the move request is what to do with Glassworks. Leaving Glassworks (Glass) as is would not be terrible, but some additional specification would be helpful. BD2412 T 01:33, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Explanation

(edit conflict: another editor closed the above discussion whilst I was typing this)

When I made the initial move request I didn't say much because I assumed it would be uncontroversial. I was clearly wrong there, so let me expand a little.

The page title Glassworks currently redirects to Glassworks (Glass), and has done for three years, which made me think this is the primary topic, hence my request.
Some above have suggested Glassworks should instead redirect to Glass production. I can see the logic behind this, but in fact that page makes only two passing mentions of the term "glassworks", without defining or explaining what it means, so that page would be of no use to anyone looking for that meaning of "glassworks".
I notice that the title Glass works (with a space) redirects to Glassblowing, but again that page makes only passing uses of the term without defining it.
I also notice that other pages linking to Glassworks make differing assumptions - some refer to the Philip Glass composition, others to glass manufacture, so whatever the outcome some of these will need cleaning up.
Maybe then the best solution would be for Glassworks to become a disambiguation page with links to the Philip Glass composition as well as to Glass production and Glassblowing.
If this is the case and the Philip Glass composition is not deemed the primary topic, then the page on the composition should remain at its present title Glassworks (Glass) according to the naming convention WP:NCMUSIC:

When the name of a non-generic composition is neither unique nor the primary topic under this name, add the composer's last name as parenthetical disambiguator:

Syrinx (Debussy)

Poème (Chausson)

If it is decided that this is confusing because of the ambiguity of the composer's name, then the correct thing to do would be to disambiguate by the composer's full name, Glassworks (Philip Glass). The relevant example give in WP:NCMUSIC is for John Ireland, where we use e.g. Ballad (John Ireland) because Ballad (Ireland) might suggest the country. If we decide to do this, however, this would apply to all Philip Glass compositions, not just this one - see for example The Light (Glass), Symphony No. 5 (Glass), Harpsichord Concerto (Glass) and many more. --188.28.24.246 (talk) 22:17, 9 May 2020 (UTC) (same contributor as initial request; IP address has changed)[reply]
The closure was correct, as there was a clear consensus not to perform the move that you originally suggested. Furthermore, the move you are proposing would potentially affect a lot of pages. I have left a note at Talk:Philip Glass to get more participation. b uidhe 22:35, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have another instance of Talk:Winterfell (Game of Thrones episode)#Requested move 15 April 2019, where the disambiguation recommended by the guideline (i.e. "Winterfell (Game of Thrones)") fails to actually disambiguate. I think "Philip Glass" is the appropriate disambiguator for just this one composition. For the rest, it is sufficiently clear from the base title that it is a musical composition, so a capitalized Glass will suffice. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:01, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objection to Glassworks (Philip Glass. The solution to the primary topic issue is to expand the explanation of what a glassworks is in glass production. There is plenty of material to cover. BD2412 T 23:18, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]