Talk:Girlschool

Untitled

The version of this page posted on 30 January 2005 appears to be a copy of http://www.girlschool.co.uk/biography.htm which had a modification date of 01 January 2005 when I looked at it on 07 December 2005. Only minor edits have taken place since. Is this a copyright violation? Drallim 09:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

"was a band"?

Should the tone of this entire article really be in the past tense? I saw this band in Cambridge just this past November (2005) with Motörhead and In Flames.

Stub Expansion

I have now given this band the article they deserve! I welcome the input of others to enhance it further.

Headshaker 08:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice job! I'd be happy to add details of albums subsequent to "Play Dirty" if someone else could create the template pages for me. The pages for the first four albums are pretty informative now. 86.129.10.125 (talk) 04:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Alister, UK

Lineup

Could some brave soul convert the list into a chronological table? --kingboyk 22:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Fan site / inappropriate for an encyclopedia

I looked at the state of this article when it was tagged as resembling a fan site and containing information inappropriate for an encyclopedia. It didn't differ much from what it looks like now.

I disagree with those tags. Everything in the article are pieces of information I'd like to find if I looked something up in an encyclopedia. There's really not much excessive praise. That Kelly Johnson "battled" cancer may seem more heroic than simply dying from it, but it's quite usual to use such phrases when speaking about illness. Does someone else have opinions on the matter? I noticed that the tags have been placed there by an anonymous user who made a handful of contributions during two days.

I'd like to remove those tags in a few months if noone objects.--Odd M. Nilsen (talk) 15:12, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Girlschool/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: I will begin reviewing/commenting shortly. J04n(talk page) 02:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Take your time, I'll be waiting. Lewismaster (talk) 20:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   • I'm torn over the use of "Lemmy" rather than his surname Kilmister. I realize that he simply goes by Lemmy, but the first time that he is mentioned it is as "Lemmy Kilmister". Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Subsequent uses of names says it should be the surname. I think to get around that the second sentence of the '1978 - 1982: N.W.O.B.H.M.' section could be changed to "...coming to the ear of Ian Kilmister, commonly known as Lemmy, leader of..." What do you think?

   Actually Lemmy Kilmister is the way the man is most usually addressed in the press and rock world. However, on Wikipedia the article dedicated to him is titled only Lemmy and on the FA Motörhead article Lemmy is the only name used, except in the introduction where a solution like the one you suggested is used. I think that the use of the surname Kilmister to identify him is not appropriate and we could go with your solution or "...Ian "Lemmy" Kilmister, leader of..." used on the Lemmy article. Which one do you think is more appropriate? Lewismaster (talk) 17:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

   I suppose either way, it should just be consistent throughout the article. There is precedent in other articles that are more directly related to him being just Lemmy, but the MoS I linked above suggests the surname.J04n(talk page) 22:28, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

   I followed your suggestion for the first appearance of the name and used the pseudonym for all the other entries Lewismaster (talk) 21:58, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

   • I'm confused by this sentence:"Back in England, the routine of recording, touring and promotional work started again, but the strain was wearing out Kelly Johnson, who was also tired of the music the band had been playing for four years without a break" was it the music that they were playing or the fact that they played for 4 straight years without a break that she was tired of? Do you see what I mean?

   I rephrased the sentence and clarified the content

   • In the same paragraph the sentence "Holder and Lea, returned to great fame in Great Britain with their rock band Slade, were convinced to produce only a single, with the rest of the album to be recorded in Los Angeles with Quiet Riot producer Spencer Proffer" is a mess; what about: "Holder and Lea ended up only producing a single before returning to Great Britain with the band Slade. The remainder of the album was recorded in Los Angeles with Quiet Riot producer Spencer Proffer."?

   Grammar aside it is confusing, was the band in America with Holder and Lea, then H & L left for GB? If this is true the fact that they were in the US should have been established earlier.

   Same sentence, what was the single produced by H & L? as a reader I want to know.

   Same sentence combined with the next is also confusing; says they recorded the album in LA but then says "The band decided instead to record their fourth studio album in North London" where was it recorded?

   The sentence "The band decided instead to record..." is also a bit awkward.

   I rewrote this part and it should be clearer now

   Same paragraph, what were the 2 Slade songs on the album?

   added songs

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   • The second sentence in the lead is not fully supported by the source, the source says they "are apparently listed in..." (emphasis mine), apparently was left out of the quote in the ref. If they are in the Guinness Book, it should be able to be better verified.

   I added "apparently" to the quote, but I have trouble in finding a proper reference for this sentence. I don't have the 2004 World Records Guinness Book and the Guinness Book website does not report any record like this one. What should I do?

   • The second sentence of the first paragraph of the '1975 - 1978: Painted Lady' subsection is cited to the Fullinbloom.com. 31 July 2009 but that reference makes no mention of Val Lloyd or that Deirdre Cartwright was a neighbor of the other ladies.

   being a neighbour or not is not very important and I added the reference for Val Lloyd

   • The close of the '1975 - 1978: Painted Lady'subsection. "touring small venues in France, Ireland and Great Britain", is not sourced.

   added reference

   • The bulk of the third paragraph in the '1978 - 1982: N.W.O.B.H.M.' section is not sourced (only the final sentence is supported by the source at the end of the paragraph).

   added references

   • The first and last sentences of the fourth paragraph in the '1978 - 1982: N.W.O.B.H.M.' section are not sourced.

   added references and changed the first sentence

   • The final sentence of the next paragraph "was certified silver in December 1981, the best sale performance for both bands at the time." is not sourced.

   added reference and an explanation about the use of the database.

   • The first sentence of the next paragraph "The album Hit and Run was released in March 1981..." is not sourced

   corrected release date and added references for all release dates.

   • The final sentence of the same paragraph "The Friday Rock Show on BBC Radio 1 broadcast..." is not sourced.

   added reference, at minute 12:20 of the video interview Denise Dufort cites the Show broadcasting of the Reading Festival

   • The final sentence of the next paragraph "On the recommendation of Lemmy, Williams was replaced by Ghislaine 'Gil' Weston" is not sourced.

   added reference

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• Interim comment 1: I've read through the article once and am confident that the potential for promotion is there. On my second and more thorough review I've only gone through the lead and first two subsections of the 'History' section. The sourcing issues that I've found are listed above. You can begin fixing now or wait for me to go through the whole thing, either way is ok with me. Also, I'm not entirely sure that all of the sources are reliable, I'm not yet saying that they aren't but after I closely go through the article I will more closely assess the reliability of each of the sources.J04n(talk page) 01:18, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your work. I'll try to fix what I can on the go and continue my research for more references on the most difficult ones. Lewismaster (talk) 16:50, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
• Interim comment 2: I did some copy editing of the '1983 - 1985: American sirens' subsection, it needs more (see comments above), also there are paragraphs that end without sources. Some of the biggest offenders end with "which was released in 1985 and reissued on DVD with the title Girlschool - Live from London in 2005.", "At the end of the tour, Jackie Bodimead left the band.", "the only published track from this period is the song "Lust for Love" on Toyah’s album Take the Leap!.", "The rest of the year was dedicated to a world tour for the promotion of the new release.", etc. Let me know after you've had a chance to do more copyediting and further sourcing.
  • I'll let you know. Thank you for your patience. Lewismaster (talk) 21:58, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
• Final comment: Congratulations, a lot of time and effort went into getting this article up to snuff. J04n(talk page) 16:24, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Thank you for my second Good article! Now to the next... Lewismaster (talk) 18:35, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Contradiction

There is a contradiction in the final sentence of the introduction. It reads, "Despite frequent changes of line-up, original members Kim McAuliffe, Enid Williams and Denise Dufort are still in the band to this day; the last of the original members, lead guitarist and singer Kelly Johnson, died of cancer in 2007." If three of the original members "are still in the band to this day" then Johnson could not have been "the last of the original members" when she died.

Perhaps what was intended was that Johnson was the first of the original members to die? I don't know enough about Girlschool to fix this with an edit. Perhaps someone else can clarify this and remove the contradiction tag. --Basil Fritts (talk) 22:50, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

It occurs to me that what may be meant is that Johnson is the only original member no longer in the band. I am going to edit the sentence so that it reads this way. If this was not the intention, please correct it accordingly. --Basil Fritts (talk) 22:55, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

What you have written is fine. Lewismaster (talk) 05:49, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Politically Correct, Feminist narrative ruins article

These articles are supposed to be constructed on neutral descriptions of facts and events, not POV feminism which borders on the line of classroom lecturing. Which itself also comes across as inappropriate glorification of the subject (not very subtly suggesting that accolades should be given to the band as "trailblazing leaders").

This kind of thing hurts Wikipedia's reputation. I mean the article even concedes that GS doesn't embrace the whole "we had to overcome sexism" narrative, and it admits that very few females rock acts have ever cited the band's influence. Yet it goes so far as to connect their 'widespread' female rock influence to Riot Grrrl *major forehead palm*, and it incessantly makes the case for a "sexist, macho rock industry" they had to overcome. As though the other stated facts, such as how GS worked/performed alongside many big-name male rock acts and had a supportive male following, should be ignored as well. It really doesn't seem to occur to people that feminism is an idealogically-slanted way of perceiving the world, one whose influence can never allow for neutrality.

I'm also curious as to just how many female rock acts are going to be cited as the ultimate "path pavers" for all others? There was Heart, Linda Rondstadt, The Runaways, Debbie Harry, Suzi Quatro, Patti Smith, Grace Slick, Joan Jett, Nico and Vixen all who were known names before or during the time of Girlschool, and too many of them are given this distinction (whether on Wiki or elsewhere).

Enough of this already. And for the record, men in rock are more than just "sexist barriers" to women, they are also stylistic innovators/trailblazers of just about every style women play in. 66.66.118.16 (talk) 08:16, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that to write a good article on Wikipedia means to follow the sources. In writing the Legacy section that you find so offensive, I followed what many journalists and interviewers had already written on the subject. I don't think the article is too slanted towards a politically correct position or a feminist position; it is the general opinion of the sources that I found which can appear somewhat slanted and contradictory. To show all the different opinions on the subject is the right way to write articles such as this. Girlschool's legacy is quite small and apparently not very significant, but I think that a band with such a long career deserved a section about it, but if other contributors have sourced material to enrich that section, just do it! And if you don't agree with the machismo of the 80s British metal scene, please read what the authors of these books have to say on the matter:

• Ian Christie – Sound of the Beast – The Complete Headbanging History of Heavy Metal – Harper Collins (2004) - ISBN 9780380811274
• Malc Macmillan – The N.W.O.B.H.M. Encyclopedia – Iron Pages Books (2012) – ISBN 9783931624163
• John Tucker – Suzie Smiled... The New Wave of British Heavy Metal – Independent Music Press (2006) – ISBN 0954970470
• Gerd Bayer et al. – Heavy Metal Music in Britain – Ashgate Publishing (2009) – ISBN 9780754664239

Lewismaster (talk) 20:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Girlschool

Hi...for future reference please don't edit anything i change on the Girlschool page! I actually work for Girlschool and the band endorse my website as the real website, i also do the official Facebook pages with Denise the drummer so any changes i make will be factual and correcting mistakes in which there are a few which we will be looking to change! Thanks Igirlschool (talk) 21:02, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

It's a free world and you are free to edit Wikipedia, as long as you provide valid reference for what you write. I remind you that Wikipedia has a policy and guidelines for writing articles (see Introduction_to_policies_and_guidelines for help). Saying to another editor what he cannot do is not one of them. Lewismaster (talk) 22:53, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

So you are saying that if the band themselves and their representative correct the mistakes on the page you will delete it? Igirlschool (talk) 23:24, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

for your information Girlschool see themselves as a rock band not a heavy metal band and that is one thing i will change and keep changing if you change it back! Igirlschool (talk) 23:28, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Dear Sir, Wikipedia is the result of the collaborative efforts of many editors, who are free to edit the articles. This means that the articles are always changing and not stuck in stone and you, me, everybody can add, modify and, to a limit, delete things. The limit are the sources, which are published articles, interviews, material present on other websites, etc., but not the word of the object of the article. If a Girlschool member decides that she wants to delete and change something only on her word, without providing a published reference from somewhere, her edit could be considered not from a Neutral point-of-view and challanged. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that aims to be objective and not biased, proposing as many points of view on a topic as possible, based on published reference. It is not a manifesto for an individual agenda or an ad for a product. Having said that, and if you are as you claim in direct contact with the band members, it would be a privilege to work with you, if only as supervisor, to better the article, bringing it to Feature status (which means it would be exposed on the first page of Wikipedia). It took months of efforts to gather all the articles and references to write the piece and I would not be able to do better.

Regarding the status of rock band, of course Girlschool are a rock band. But rock band is such a wide definition that you can put in it The Beatles, Yes, Fleetwood Mac, Rush and Slayer without effort. In my opinion, the correct definition for the music of Girlschool would be Heavy Rock, which is not contemplated as a genre on Wikipedia. It uses instead hard rock. On the other hand, Girlschool don't do ballads, they play fast songs with plenty of distorted guitars and short and poignant lyrics, which are characteristic of punk rock and heavy metal. I would stuck with what most critics wrote about their music, being a mix of punk and heavy metal. In various interviews during their career, Girlschool members themselves gave different definitions of their music (see article), but I think that it is also important how the outside world sees the band and their music. It is the same dispute started by Lemmy against the music press. He claims that Motörhead play rock'n'roll, but fans and critics know them and define them as a heavy metal band. His roots may be in Elvis, but his music, voice and attitude say something else. As Kelly Johnson said "heavy metal is anything loud and exciting and it covers the spectrum of different bands". And Girlschool definetly are in this group. Lewismaster (talk) 08:42, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

@Igirlschool: Anything you add to the article must be verifiable; if it isn't backed up with a reliable source that can be verified, it can be removed by anyone at any time. That's the rule. If the consensus reached, based upon a preponderance of evidence from the sources cited, is that Girlschool is heavy metal, the band will be listed as heavy metal. I'm not saying that's the case, but that's how Wikipedia works. Cheers. p.s. - Tell the girls Hit and Run is still one of my all time favorites. ChakaKong^{Let's talk about it} 14:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

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Metal Maidens

Hi @User:Lewismaster,

A "fanzine" can be printed, and indeed predates the internet in areas such as science fiction and the diplomacy board game; the fact that Metal Maidens was printed doesn't preclude it from being so. Meanwhile, if you look at the "about us" and "contact" pages on that website, you will see that it is not a professional operation, instead being run by a husband and wife team, with half a dozen occasional guest contributors.

In other words, it is a self-published magazine, both during its offline days and today, and as such cannot be used as source, for this article or otherwise. As such, I've reverted your revert - if you do revert again, please discuss here why you believe it does not fall under WP:SELFPUBLISHED.

BilledMammal (talk) 13:50, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

If you are sure that during their printing run (since 2005) there was no editorial control, I have no complaint about ereasing the reference. The current website reprints much of the magazine content in a very unprofessional setup and the van Poortens do not appear to be professional journalists, unlike some of their collaborators. However, I don't have a copy of the actual magazine to evaluate. The cover style and price (see [1]) are not much different from the first runs of magazines like Metal Forces and Rock Hard, but I cannot see any detail about the publisher and the periodicity of the issues. What can I say? I have doubts about the nature of the publication (magazine or fanzine?), but I have no proof that it is not self-published. Lewismaster (talk) 15:47, 1 October 2021 (UTC)