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Archive 1Archive 2

General review

This is a borderline case. English language, peer-reviewed, high-quality references are needed to substantiate claims in the article. Also the style of the article needs to be improved. There are blatant POV remarks (for example, how does one explain which version of the name is "more correct"). Also the name of the article that did not correspond to the Wikipedia standard has been changed to its previous version. Noneedforthis 18:32, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Name

I beg to provide a valide source, to proove that the name "Juraj Dalmatinac" was used during Orsini-Dalmatinac time. I will insert a reference about the croatization of dalmatian people of the past. --Giovanni Giove 18:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to point out that I don't consider Dalmatia an "italian land", it's Croatia. But in the past there was an Italian presence (in the language, in the culture, in the ethnicity) that is not possible to neglect. --Giovanni Giove 08:20, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"Juraj Dalmatinac" is the Croatian translation of "Georgius Dalmaticus", which was the name he used for himself, together with the patronym "Mathei". He never used the last name Orsini; it was his grandson who started using this last name when he received a noble title from V. Orsini, governor of Dalmatia, in 1540 -- 65 years after Juraj's death. You are right in pointing out that the name "Juraj Dalmatinac" wasn't recorded in its Croatian form in the artist's own time, but the name "Giorgio Orsini" wasn't used in his time either. "Giorgio Delmata" would be more correct.M K 16:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Move. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


Requested move to Juraj Dalmatinac

Giorgio Orsini - Juraj Dalmatinac → Juraj Dalmatinac – The person has only one name, not both simultaneously. Different language versions of the name should all be listed in the introduction of the article in accordance with Wikipedia:Proper names policy. - RedZebra 09:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment (as nom): the suggested name is the original name of the article. Its current dual name has been assigned to it on August 26 2006. See history of the article for more details [1] RedZebra 11:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

  • Against: dalmatinac is only a tranlation of Dalmaticus, that was just a nickname. Orsini is reported at the time.--Giovanni Giove 13:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
    Might be, but having two names in article title is just not acceptable. --Dijxtra 16:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, although I would support a move to Giorgio Orsini. Kafziel 16:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose until further information is provided attesting to the primary language/region of activity. The article mentions Ancona and Republic of Venice. It's ludicrous to use Google hits (below) in cases of obscure historical figures where there are so few overall online references (small N). The vaunted "Google Test" would have us move flatulence to fart and sexual intercourse to fuck (I'm against the double barrelled name but let's get it right) -  AjaxSmack  06:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
    See my reply to you here: [2]. --Dijxtra 08:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
    Actually the Google test, for all its shortcomings, can be a very useful tool if used judiciously. Although personally I don't need Google to make up my mind when faced with "sexual intercourse" vs "f..." dillema I will use the above example in an attempt to prove my point. The first 50 results for "sexual intercourse" seem all to refer to the actual sexual intercourse or subjects related to it whereas the first 50 results for "f...." seem to be mostly a reflection of the inability of some people to express their anger and frustration in a more creative way. Even if you ignore every rational argument for the "sexual intercourse" as the preferred name of the article on this encyclopaedia, Google will, as I interpret these results, support it. Back to our conundrum. As for google results in English for "Juraj Dalmatinac", in the first 200 results, there seem to be only two pages that don't refer directly to the artist himself but rather, it would seem, to a ship/tanker/vessel/whatever with the same name and a primary school in Croatia of the same name. As for Giorgio Orsini, there are actually only 53 results. The rest of the total of 133 results have been identified by Google as duplicate versions of the pages contained within the first 53 results. Based on these 53 results the following can be stated: Giorgio Orsini is not only the artist in question, but also an Italian cinematographer who was active in more than 20 films (roughly a quarter of 53 results refer to him), a reportedly "an experienced glider" from 1960s, a character from a screenplay by Michel J. Duthin "The Holy Blood", a brand or a producer of pipes called Giorgio Orsini etc. In short, as far as I can tell there seems to be a clear preference for "Juraj Dalmatinac" as the name of the article. As for the content of the article itself, a casual glimpse into the history will reveal the user to be credited with most contributions to this obscure article. For some reason I would not rely entirely on the information contained in it. RedZebra 09:12, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Post-close


"Giorgio Orsini was originally from Venice"

I removed this part as Juraj was from Dalmatia, not Venice. Every credible source says that he was from Dalmatia, not from Venice. --Dijxtra 22:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The man was born in Zadar(or Zara) thus he was from Dalmatia.--Factanista 02:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Born in Zara (today Zadar) from a family with origins in Venice.--Giovanni Giove 22:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Born in Zadar nevertheless. As for his family origins in Venice it is unfounded.--Factanista 17:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Before reverting read this

You changed "originally called" to "also nicknamed". He signed him self on his work with "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus". Therefore, it isn't his nickname, but that was the way he called himself. If you have a source where he calls himself Orsini, feel free to submit it.

You are quoting a source which says that Dalmatinac was originally from Venice and that he moved to Dalmatia. That is a pure lie since it is an established fact that he was born in Dalmatia (even you agree to that), then educated in Venice (since there was not proper place to be educated in Dalmatia), and then returned to Dalmatia. Since your source claims that he was born in Venice, it is obviously not reliable source, so it is to be disregarded.

Then again, if Zadar had Romance population, and if Juraj Dalmatinac's original name was Georgio Orsini... then, why would he use "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus"? If there were no Slavic people around, why would he call himself like that? Why didn't he call himself Orsini? I'll tell you why: because Orsini wasn't his name. --Dijxtra 20:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It is well know that in former times, Latin was the international language. It was a custom to sign with a Latinized name or nickname. Kopernikus signed his books with the name "Nicolaus Coperincus", that does not mean it was his real name: he was acutally named Mikołaj Kopernik.
Matter of Kopernik's name is a complicated one. He might have been names Kopernik, but could be named Koppernigk. Please read the article. But the thing is that he signed "Nicolaus Copernicus", and his surname might be "Kopernik" or "Koppernigk". Juraj signed "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus" because his surname was "Orsini"? You see logic there? --Dijxtra 22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The soruce that say "lies" is wrotten by an expert of the Balacan area. I wrote that the family was originary from Venice, but he was born in Zara. Zara (as it was called in that time) did not had a Slavic pouolation in Orsini time.
Excuse me? No Slavic population? Andrija Budčić and Grubiš Šlafčić who participated in building of the cathedral were Italians? So, Slavs lived all around the city, but in the city there were no Slavs? Are you serious? --Dijxtra 22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Official language was Italian (or Venitian), I can't see a reason for a slavic name in that time.
Oh, you don't? Then, why did Dalmatinac sign as "Mathaei"? Out of fun? Do you sign as "Giove" because your surname is "Mirković"? Or you sign "Giove" because your surname is "Giove"? --Dijxtra 22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Until 1945 the city kept his romance/italian majority. I beg you to provide some sources for your claims of integral "croaticity".
I didn't claim he was a Croat. My version of the article doesn't say that, please read it carefully. It says that he was called "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus". Who mentioned Croats? I didn't. Please do not falsely accuse me. --Dijxtra 22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I've changed the article into a NPOV version, that left the question of nationality undeterimined, presenting both the points of wiew.
I will now revert to the version which doesn't even mention nationalities. Your version says "He was originary from Venice". My version doesn't say where he was from. So I am reverting to the version which doesn't mention his origin. --Dijxtra 22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't care if you prefer to impose your nationalistic claims.
What nationalistic claims? You are the one which says he was Venetian. I never said that he was a Croat. So, who is nationalist here? --Dijxtra 22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Finnaly it seems that "Orsini" is common in German and English literature. Of course I've restored the my neutral version. Feel free to change it, but without to impose nationalist claims--Giovanni Giove 21:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
As I have explained above, my version has no mention to either "Venetian" or "Croatian". Your does. So I will now revert to version without nationalist implications. --Dijxtra 22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Nonsense. Giorgio Orsini is Juraj Dalmatinac only in Croatia and nowhere else. Educate yourself, please!
Finally, in Dalmatia, the native country of architects as important as Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico and Luciano Laurana ... from

Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 (The Yale University Press Pelican History of Art) by Ludwig H. Heydenreich, p. 101
It is very nationalistic and moreover meaningless to translate the artist's (Latinized) signature of the famous Italian architect Giorgio Orsini claiming that he was a Croatian architect. That way you people could only ridicule yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.252.81.35 (talk • contribs) 23:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Name according to Britannica

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Sebenico )--Giovanni Giove 22:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we all know that in 1911 Britannica called him Orsini. That doesn't change the fact that he didn't call himself Orsini. And, that is what we are discussing. Also, note that Britannica doesn't say he was from Venice, but that he studied in Venice. --Dijxtra 22:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Post facts (I'd like to read the source of the above theory).
Of course, I'll get you the sources. But, then you have to find sources that he called himself Orsini. OK? --Dijxtra 10:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
There, now you have sources. --Dijxtra 15:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
For sure, he did'n call himself Dalmatinac, too. .....So?!?
My version of the article doesn't say he called himself Dalmatinac. Please stop putting words in my mouth. --Dijxtra 10:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Neither Orsini, nor Dalmatinac... but a Latin nickname as "original" name. Every artist in that time had a latin signature!!!!!!!!!!!--Giovanni Giove 09:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's right. My version of the article uses his Latin signature. --Dijxtra 10:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Stop edit war

Dijxtira, you are doing an edit war! In this way you just destroy your reputation of user. I've tried to write a more neutral version. It can be improoved, but you insist to impose a non neutral and surpassed version. You know that Dalmatinac is not the 'real' name, but you impose it as first name, claiming that Orsini is just an italian version. I've posted some links where is possible to see that "Orsini" is used by Anglo-saxon, Spanish (and also Germans). Also Britannica uses Orsini... on the other side it seems that Dalmatinac is not used so much outside Croatia. It is possible to improve some particulars of the article... I'm not perfect.... some sources may be verified better. But there is something that you can not change: Dalmatinac is not "more correct" than Orsini... so you are not allowed to substain the present version. I've already answered to the most of your question. You can talk about them again. But in any case DON'T REVERT AGAIN. Change the single lines after a discussion. DON'T TRY TO IMPOSE THAT ORSINI IS .... "the name used in Italy". You know is false. --Giovanni Giove 20:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you answer to my questions in "Before reverting read this" paragraph? That's all I ask of you. You are reverting without discussion, and I am reverting after discussing. The difference is big. --Dijxtra 07:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I've already answered above, and some other questions are surpassed, beacause I've deleted some debated sentences. I've already to tell me if you still have some doubts. --Giovanni Giove 08:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Main problem with this man (Dijxtra) and his supporters is that they use forgeries and pseudo-history coming form Croatia like:
Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac (called Giorgio Orsini in Italy)
Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac is Croatian form of his name which entered widespread usage after his death. His son took surname Orsini after death of his father, so Juraj Dalmatinac is known as Giorgio Orsini in Italy.
Firstly, no one in the world, except Croats uses this fake name given to the famous Italian architect Giorgio Orsini. There is no single document of that time nor later, till maybe the second half of 19th century, where you could read something like 'Juraj Dalmatinac'. The forgery given above suggests that their 'Dalmatinac' got the Orsini surname after his son 'took surname ...'. Even reading the turist guides - printed in the English - you can clearly see that Giorgio Orsini is not their 'Dalmatinac' nor anybody knows anything about it. See
Frommer's Italy 2007 (Frommer's Complete) by Darwin Porter and Danforth Prince p. 354: At the center of the port stands the Loggia dei Merchanti, constructed in the 15th century Gothic style. This was the merchants' exchange, the work of Dalmatian, giorgio Orsini, and the best monument to Ancona's heyday as a great maritime city.
Michelin THE GREEN GUIDE Italy, 6e (THE GREEN GUIDE) by Michelin Staff and Michelin Travel Publications 2000 p.87: Loggia di Mercanti - this 15C hall for merchants' meetings has a Venetian Gothic facade which was the work of another Dalmatian, Giorgio Orsini.
Dalmatia here is acceptable only as a historical notion and with no connection to any Croatia - which even (Croatia) did not exist at all - that time. So, we have to fight these people whose goal is not the truth - rather a primitive political agenda. I removed some nonsense from your revision of this article and also, I want you supporting me in giving the right title to this article - Giorgio Orsini. We could respect their 'Juraj Dalmatinac' just as a note to the reader informing him who calls Orsini - 'Dalmatinac' and why.
--GiorgioOrsini 01:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The core problem

The main problem is that Dijxtra is imposing Dalmatinac as the normally accepted name, and claims that Orsini is only the Italian version. He has posted no sources for this claim. The international use of the name Orsini has been demonstrated in the past (Britannica) and in the presente (Internet links, and travel books): has been shown that Orsini is still used by French, Spanish and Anglosaxons. Dijxtra does not show the same for the slavic version (maybe it has been recently improoved).
My 'irridentisc'(Wanderer by serious!!) version of the article puts both the names on the same level; furthermore I've added a controversial point, showing both the POV.
Dijxtra claims that both the names went in use after the death; if true (I'll write about this) there is no reason to consider Dalmatinac more correct and accepted. If true the main name should be 'Dalmaticus'.
The name Orsini is rather old, Dijxtra himseld says.... on the other side Dijxtra does not tell when the name Dalmatinac has been mentioned for the first time.
It seems that Dijxtra is breaking the rules of Wikipedia, imposing and unsupported POV for nationalistic purporses.
Because the article is discussed, I'm going to add the NPOV tag.--Giovanni Giove 08:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, lets see on which things we agree:
  1. He signed as Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus
  2. He never signed Juraj Dalmatinac
  3. He never signed Georgio Orsini
  4. Your links show that international community called him Orsini in past
  5. Google test shows that international community calls him Dalmatinac now
Do we agree on all of this?
What we don't agree is:
  1. I say that only his son took the surname Orsini, you say that he used surname Orsini
  2. I say that from his signature "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus" it is obvious that he was named Juraj : Dalmatinac, you say that he was named Orsini
Did I sumarise the conflict right?
If I did, then the next step is to provide references. I provided references for the fact that his son took the surname Orsini. I'm still looking for a reliable source that claims his name was Juraj Matejev. What you now have to do is submit a reliable source that claims that Dalmatinac used surname Orsini. --Dijxtra 11:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Google, international community and other lies

I was triggered by these claims coming from the man signed as Dijxtra

OK, lets see on which things we agree:
  1. He signed as Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus
  2. He never signed Juraj Dalmatinac
  3. He never signed Georgio Orsini
  4. Your links show that international community called him Orsini in past
  5. Google test shows that international community calls him Dalmatinac now
Do we agree on all of this?

As per google search engine applied to the

- "Giorgio Orsini" string I got 1580 pages of which there were 225 different ones (At the end of the list of different pages google seacch engine says: In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 225 already displayed. If you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included.)

- "Giorgio Orsini" "Juraj Dalmatinac" string gave 140 pages of which there were 61 different

- "Juraj Dalmatinac" string gave 14500 pages of which there were only 542 different

- "Juraj Dalmatinac" narrowed to the pages in Croatian - 1090 of which there were only 342 different

- "Juraj Dalmatinac" narrowed to the pages in English -520 of which there were 265 different

Over 90% of the "Juraj Dalmatinac" pages are tourist/holiday/resort destination ads mainly of the Croatian towns, tourist agencies (foreign or Croatian) selling these destinations. 

So, for this man - the international community is just another name for the Croatian tourism industry.
You say "tourist agencies (foreign or Croatian)", and then you say "Croatian tourism industry". Wouldn't that mean "international tourism industry"? --Dijxtra 11:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Please, stop distorting the truth!!! Did not I quote the modern tourist guides (Frommer's Italy 2007, Michelin THE GREEN GUIDE Italy, 6e (THE GREEN GUIDE) by Michelin Staff and Michelin Travel Publications 2000 )using the correct name Giorgio Orsini??? Whatever is related to Italy (books about Italian history, culture, art) uses the correct name Giorgio Orsini--GiorgioOrsini 17:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

As to the famous architect real name - I found this source:

A Holiday in Umbria: With an Account of Urbino and the Cortegiano of Castiglione by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson - 1917 - Page 36

Ancona possesses a group of buildings by an acrhitect with whose name and world I became familiar on the other side of the Adriatic. Giorgio Orsini, of a Zaratine family that claimed descent from the noble Roman house, was the architect of the eastern part, and the upper part of the rest of the Duomo of Sebenico --GiorgioOrsini 01:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we do agree that Giorgio Orsini is used in older sources, please read carefully. --Dijxtra 11:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
You miss the point. They claimed to descend from Orsini family: so they perfectly knew theyr own name 'Orsini'. That source contraddicts your source.--Giovanni Giove 12:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Giove, do not waste your time on this guy. It makes no sense to talk to him. He keeps ranting the same nonsense over and over. I found an older book :
Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria: with Cettigne in Montenegro and the island of Grado by Thomas Graham Jackson - 1887. On the page 416 there is the complete text of the contract with Giorgio Orsini for his services as architect of the cathedral of Sebenico, A.D. 1441. in Latin where Orsini was mentioned only as Magister Georgius - but signed as Giorgio Orsini!!!--GiorgioOrsini 17:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Giove's answer

OK, lets see on which things we agree:

  1. He signed as Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus
    Yes. But Dalmaticus is not his real name, it's a nickname.
  2. he never signed Juraj Dalmatinac
    I agree
  3. Your links show that international community called him Orsini in past
    No, my links show the present and the past. There are also some recent travel books that shows the 'Orsini' is still used in French and Uk.
    Well, don't you agree that travel books are not the best source to solve a heated naming controversy? I think that some present art-history books would be a better source... --Dijxtra 15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
  4. Google test shows that international community calls him Dalmatinac now
    No. Google is not a scientific source. According to Google the proper English term for "vagina" is "pussy". The problem is always the same.... Italy does not pay attention to the Dalmatia related questions (despite some periodic and paranoid rumors about a non existent 'irridentism', there are in Croatia.). On the other side the interest about Dalmatia history is large in Croatia; that affects the 'Google test'. A proper source should be a scientific art history book, not Google.
    Well, the Wikipedia naming guidelines say that we should use the most common name. And Google shows the most common name, doesn't it? --Dijxtra 15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
  5. He never signed Georgio Orsini
    In this case we don't know the real name of this 'Dalmaticus'.
    Yes, it seems like that. --Dijxtra 15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
    Venitian Republic had an accurate burocracy. Because 'Dalmaticus' had officials works, there must be a document showing his real name.
    Do you have an idea where we could find this documents? --Dijxtra 15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
    So your source does not seem credibile....
    Oh, my... --Dijxtra 15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
    I ought to point out that, according to single recent sources, I could believe that Venitian Marco Polo, is a Croatian named Marko Pilich (see next point).--Giovanni Giove 12:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
    OK, this is not fair, you are saying that all of Croatian sources are crazy chauvinist sources? Yes, there are nutcases which claim that half of world are Croats in fact, but that is no reason to say that all Croatian sources are not credible. I cited some quite conservative and neutral Croatian authors. I can find a source saying that Dalmaticus' name was Juraj Dalmatinac right away, but I don't use that sources because I know those are just nationalistic sources. The ones that I used are quite neutral because they do not claim that he was named "Juraj Dalmatinac", they just claim that he signed Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus and that his son took the name Orsini. It is just not fair from you comparing this sources to some crazy Croatian sources. --Dijxtra 15:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Croatian sources

A problem of Croatian sources, is the growth of pseudo historic teoryes, which show that all present Croatia, was already Croatia in 8th cent., with just some foreign "invasions" that never affected the strong&proud Croatian identity...
The presence of different ethnicities in historic times is neglected... is some foreigners lived in Croatia, they are presented as Croatians who was forced to think they were foreigners... but in real they were Croatians (even without to know). An example of this POV is the 'fantastic' definition of 'Croatian writers in Italian Language' (it is not a joke!), for all the literary men of Dalmatia, who used Italian as primary language. It is claimed that Orthodox Dalmatians were 'Croatian of Orthodox religion': they were convinced to be Serbian by Serbia propaganda... all the non Croatian names are translated, and presented as 'real names' even if they were use for the first time, only 40 years ago. An evident ethnic Italian as Giovanni Luppis, is always painted as the Croatian inventor Ivan Vukic-Lupis. And so on.....--Giovanni Giove 13:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

As I already stated, this is not good faith. I could say that all of Italian sources are pure bullshit just because Roberto Menia claims some ridiculous things. And, that's what you are saying. "It is claimed that Orthodox Dalmatians were 'Croatian of Orthodox religion'" - are you saying that each and every Croatian source claims that? You are just trying to disregard all of Croatian sources because there are few lunatics in Croatia. I could do that with Italian sources too, but I like to edit in good faith. Now, do you intend to cooperate with me so we can find reliable sources and make a NPOV article or are you going to ignore the Croatian sources completely? --Dijxtra 15:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Menia speaks for his own, and in official contests nobody cares about his ideas. Mirko Pilic' theory was several times reported by the former President of the Croatian Republic, and it is presented in many other official contests such us the touristic adversitments of Korcula. Menia's bullshit is not theached in the school. What about Croatia? In 1969 the historian of literature Andre Jutrovic proclaimed that the writers that in the past wrote in Italian had to be inserted in the national Croatian literature. Today the term "Croatian writer in Italian language" is a rule in Croatian books. After that year an amount of Italian writers of Dalmatia, with a translated name, has entered (translated) into Croatian literature.
How many Croatian books have you read? I finished my schooling in Croatia and I have never heard of "Croatian writer in Italian language". In which Croatian school did you go, man? --Dijxtra 13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I've posted you the source. I've some other sources. --Giovanni Giove 14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
It is hard to find a single name of Dalmatian personalities, presented with a non Croatian name; no suprising if it is claimed that Italian langues was brought into Dalmatia "becuase of invasion"; maybe in the last time of the 'foreign' invasion of the Republic of Venice (so why it was official language in Ragusa and and it was spoken in Fiume?). Far to any sense of riducolus, Croatian official autorities celebrate the "Days of Frane Petric" in Cres, to celebrate the "father" of Croatian phylosphy. Of course nobody says that, of this 'Croatian' Philosofer, who signed ad Francesco Patrizi, it is not known a single line wrote in Croatian..... Oh.. is is becuase he was "intelligent", and he has choosed a more known language for his books. They forget to say that international language was Latin; thay forget to say that the name 'Frane Petric' appearad the 1st time only in 1980!!!!!! (by V. Filipovic and Zvane Crnja). First it has been called, Frane Patricije-Petric, Franjo Petric, Franje Patricijo, Franjo Petric-Franciscus Patricius, Franjo Petris, Franciskus Patricijus. Before 1920 only Francesco Patrizi: in all the world. Maybe it was because of the Italian Irredentistic propaganda!!!
Why it is hard to find a Croatian site where 'Ivan Lupis' is presented with his real name 'Giovanni Luppis'?
http://www.torpedo150rijeka.org/povijest.asp?lang=hr I found it in 30 seconds. --Dijxtra 13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I discoverd this source a long time ago. It's just a single one, 'cause it's a scientific source is correct. The greater part of Croatian sources ssy 'Ivan Vuckic Lupis'. Even English Wiki, before my correctiond.--Giovanni Giove 14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Why the main church of a former ethnic Italian town as ROvinj/Rovigno, built by a Venitian archiech is presented as a 'masterpiece of Croatian art'?
Why 'Francesco Biondi, that in XVI cent. was one of the father of Italian romance, has recently became Ivan Franjo Biondi-Biundovic, presented as Croatian writer?
I could go on for a long time!!! You will never find the same behaviour in Italy! Menia is an excpetion, not the rule! We have closed the door to Fascism a long time ago!
Of course, and so are all of the neo-facists which demand Dalmatia to be a part of Italy. They all are exceptions. --Dijxtra 13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Where are those neo-fascist? How much are they? Have you a number We are not reponsble of the popolarity of our Menias beetwen the Croatian Menias. --Giovanni Giove 14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Don't you realize there is problem of nationalism in Croatia!?!?
Yes, of course, every person in Croatia is automatically a nationalist, and every person born in Italy is an exception. --Dijxtra 13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Don't you realize that Croatia constanly refuse the idea of any non Croatian presence in its own territory?
Of course, a whole country gathers every 2 days and burns Italian flags. --Dijxtra 13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I never said that. I just say there is a problem of nationalim. I've learend this from a Croatian newspaper, not from a stupid Menia. I will talk about this. --Giovanni Giove 14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Don't you realize that the things are not as they were presented to you at school?!
But let's come to us. According to your theory the name 'Orsini' was assumed later by the son, I've found some tracks (more than one) where this theory is painted as nationalistic bullshit.....the usual nationalistic bullshit "Marko Pilic's style', I'd say. Nothing of surprising! I will look for more precise sources. Meanwhile stop the engines. Take care!... and don't get those line as a personal attack. Bye.--Giovanni Giove 10:29, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Not to take it as a personal attack? You are saying that whole of Croatia is full of bulshit, and you call neo-fascists in Italy an exception. Of course. I do not think that it is possible to have a reasonable argument with you. If you wish to discuss anything with me, you will have to apologise for labelling a whole country because of actions of some of its individuals. --Dijxtra 13:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Dixy, don't put in my mouth concept that are against my basic trusts. I never said that whole Croatia is full of bullshit. I said there are some problems. Tell me point by point where I am wrong and I will apologise. Don't forget the sources. Meanwhile I will intoduce you my first source: it's Croatian newspaper (even if wrotten in Italian). It's an article appeard on the Rijeka's newspaper 'La Voce del Popolo', signed by Krstjan Knez, the title is intresting Dalmatia: a falsfied history xoomer.alice.it/histria/storiaecultura/testiedocumenti/articoligiornali/dalmazia.htm. I've repeated, just some of the concept I've find in the article (Oh! but it's a newspaper of the Italian minority!... it's not possible to trust in it!...Isn't it?). I'm afraid you have to ask your apoligies to a Croatian newspaper! But first, find a source to see where it's wrong. If it's not enough here is a similare one xoomer.alice.it/histria/storiaecultura/testiedocumenti/articoligiornali/artadriatico.htm. Do u need any translation? --Giovanni Giove 14:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions

I see that the name is a problem for some. Why not just name the article by his given latin name he himself used and then link it with 'Juraj Dalmatinac' and 'Giorgo Orisini' to redirect? Opinions? --Factanista 15:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like a fair thing to do to me. Duja► 20:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll agree to that in few more days if I don't find any reliable sources confirming his real name. For now, please give me 3-4 more days of status quo so I could see if I can find sources that clearly state that the Juraj Matejev was his real name... But, in any case, the article must state that Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus is a Latin form of Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac, that cannot be removed from the article. I will agree on the compromise Latin name of the article, but it must be clear that it was a Latin form of his Slavic name (since the name was used in Latin text). --Dijxtra 23:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd also like to point out that we got into this situation because User:Giovanni Giove fails to act in good faith. He moved this article twice without establishing the consensus, so this article had to go through WP:RQM just so we could move it back to it's original name. He also blames whole of Croatian nation for nationalism and refuses to acknowledge any Croatian source while claiming Italy to be fascism-free. I think that if Wikipedia is to achieve neutral point of view, it should not take actions because people like this want it. --Dijxtra 13:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Dixy, be carefully to put in mouth word I've never said. My task it's to find a NPOV. This is not possible if you go on to claim that 'Dalamtinac' is the correct name, without to present a valid source. You said he was never use by Dalmaticus! ABout the move without conesun, I was a newbbie: that the only reason. I repeat: be carful with your word. Greetings.--Giovanni Giove 14:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
What did I say wrong? Which statements did I put into your mouth?Oh, you replied above. Sorry, I didn't see the above accusations so I thought you are just speaking in general terms. And, where in article did I state that his real name is Juraj Dalmatinac? I do not have reliable source for that (just as you don't have for Orsini) and therefore I didn't put it into the article. Tell me, where did I put any unreferenced claims into the article, and where did I put statements into your mouth? --Dijxtra 14:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've read your reply above. You still refuse to accept Croatian sources and refuse to admit that fascists exist in Italy. I just do not see the point of trying to reach an agreement with you. I will try to find some more sources to add to this article next week. I hope you will not remove those. But, discussion is over, until you stop calling Croatian sources a fabrication. --Dijxtra 15:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Giovanni, shall we stop to argue with this man? All he demonstrated here is stubborness and ignorance. I am going to alarm more Italians - editors of the English Wikipedia in order to find a way to put things into correct order: the architect real name - Giorgio Orsini, his artist name - Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus, forgery coming from Croatia (second half od 19th century) - Juraj Dalmatinac--GiorgioOrsini 14:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Shall you immediately stop this sock-puppeting, personal attacks and threats of votecasting? There are other ways to put things into correct order. Duja► 17:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that the kind of research this debate calls for is, quite honestly, beyond the scope of being settled across the internet, especially as unreliable as it can be, as it would require obtaining numerous historical documents, likely across both countries, and careful analysis by experts to be able to come to anything near a satisfactory conclusion. I vote for linking the two names and using his Latin name as the article's title while acknowledging the ambiguity about his name/ethnic origins exists. This can be done without imposing a POV. Sicilianmandolin 17:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response - still remains the fact the architect real name - Giorgio Orsini, his artist name - Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus, forgery coming from Croatia (second half od 19th century) - Juraj Dalmatinac. Prove me wrong!--GiorgioOrsini 19:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to discreetly point out that there is no ambiguity since there are no relevant sources claiming that his real name was Orsini. Yes, lots of secondary sources call him Orsini because his son took the surname, but no primary sources are available that name him like that. If there is Italian form of his Latin name, I'd be more than happy for it to be listed in the article, just next to Croatian form of his Latin name. But, let us distinguish Croatian/Italian form of his Latin name (which I find acceptable) and a totally unconnected name which he didn't use (which I find unacceptable). BTW, I'd like to point out that I'll, of course, comply with a consensus of uninvolved (that is non-Italian and non-Croatian) editors. But calling for Italian editors to engage in this dispute is just not constructive and will result in a complete chaos. --Dijxtra 19:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Ranting the same nonsense again and again??? For those who can read Italian - here it will be seen the 'validity' of the Croatian 'sources':
Avete mai letto in un libro croato di storia dell'arte dei capo­lavori di Giorgio Orsini, scultore ed architetto nato a Zara all'ini­zio del XV secolo e morto a Sebenico nel 1473? No, quest'uo­mo non esiste in quei libri, per­ché il suo nome è stato croatizzato: Juraj Dalmatinac. La medesi­ma sorte è toccata a uno dei mag­giori pittori del cinquecento, An­drea Meldola, trasformato in An­drija Medulic. A Sebenico ed a Zara vi sono via intitolate a per­sonaggi dal cognome Divinic che, talvolta, si presenta nella va­riante Difhik. Chi sono costoro? Franjo Divnic-Difnik nasconde Francesco Difnico, ovvero Difnicus nella versione latina. Fu uno storico delle vicende della Dal­mazia del suo tempo, amico e pa­rente dello storico di Trau, Gio­vanni Lucio. La medesima sorte è toccata a Giorgio Difinico, croatizzato in Juraj Divnic-Dif­nik, nato a Sebenico nel 1450 e spentosi a Zara nel 1530, dopo essere stato Vescovo di Nona. E' stato trasformato in croato, col nome di Petar Divnic-Difiiik an­che il poeta Pietro Difhico nato a Sebenico nel 1525, comandante per quindici anni dei reparti cri­stiani in guerra contro i Turchi.
All from [3] --GiorgioOrsini 20:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
And again I have to state that if some Croatian sources are wrong, that doesn't mean that all of Croatian sources are wrong (believe me, I know, I study logic). For instance, Andre Meldola is a pure Italian, I agree. Andrija Medulić is a complete nonsence. But, the fact that some Croats claim that everybody is a Croat, that doesn't mean that everybody is Italian, does it? --Dijxtra 20:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Stop the engine Dixy. I NEVER said that EVERY Croat go around to sperad bullshit. I never said that EVERY Croatian source is bullshit. I just said that bullshit theories are common today in Croatia.; and this is very different. You live there, and you can see the level of nationalism you have there. Pilic, Petric, Vukic, Medulic, Biundic... who is the next? When you announce that this guy is, pheraps, Croatian and not Italian, don't be surprise if one began to thik "another one"..."again the same story".--Giovanni Giove 22:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I replied to User:GiorgioOrsini, I was blaming him for diosregarding Croatian sources (he said: "here it will be seen the 'validity' of the Croatian 'sources'", which I see as attack on validity of all Croatian sources). And then you say "When you announce that this guy is, pheraps, Croatian and not Italian, don't be surprise if one began to thik "another one"..."again the same story"." which I read as "if Croatian source says something, don't believe it because they say lies". I don't see any other way of reading this comment. --Dijxtra 23:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
No! What you should read is "if a Croatian source says that this guy, who for centuries has been considered Italian in all the World, is Croatian; I have to control if it is the truth or it is another theory Marko Pilic's style". The resons fot this control are wrotten here (sorry it's in Italian)[4] by a certain Giacomo Scotti.... not exactly an irredentisc source (let's say so), if you know him.--Giovanni Giove 23:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Giorgio Orsini, references and networking

Hello Giovanni,

My first attempt to make some networking gave me this response: From [5]

Hallo Giorgio,

unfortunately I know very little about him, and not under that name, but as Giorgio da Sebenico. By the way, near my house in Rome there is a Via Giorgio da Sebenico, and this road lies in the quarter named Villaggio Giuliano, where many refugees from Istria and Dalmatia live since sixty years. The roads there are entitled to famous italians from this territories. In order to get references about him, you can find them under the Volume VIII of the Series edited by the Società dalmata di Storia Patria. That book is dedicated to him. Regards, Alex2006 12:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Very nice thing to learn this! Inside this publication http://www.sddsp.it/pubblicazioni.htm

there are three articles:

  • V. Fasolo: Giorgio Orsini, il dalmata
  • M. Cace: Sulla casata di Giorgio Orsini
  • A. Dudan: La gloriosa Triade: Luciano e Francesco Laurana da Zara e Giovanni il Dalmata da Traù

It would be nice to get somehow the photocopies of these three articles i.e. we have find people who have access to this publication. We have definitely to continue with networking and getting more people (knowledgeable about this famous Italian architect) involved in this editorial work. Debating with Dijxtra and the likes is just a waste of time.--GiorgioOrsini 23:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Somebody will say they are Italian sources, and Orsini is just the Italian name. It shall be pointed out that Dalmatinac was never used in international literature.--Giovanni Giove 14:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

POV tag

As a disinterested party who has initiated the survey that led to the reinstatement of the original name of the article, I've felt it a duty to keep it on my watchlist and glance at it from time to time. The article is where it used to be: in a sorry state, dull and smacking of bias. It is of little encyclopedic value. It lacks proper citations for a number of claims. The references are poor, and the article reads like a propaganda pamphlet. It is clear, even to those who have no interest in dwelling on this subject, that it falls behind the neutrality standards of Wikipedia (the introduction, the Name controversy paragraph). These issues need to be addressed before the tag is removed. --RedZebra 16:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the tag as no improvement whatsoever has been achieved in relation to the objections raised above. If for any reason this isn't self-evident, please check WP:NOT, WP:NOR and WP:V.--RedZebra 17:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not on you to see improvements. It's on you to point out where are the POV sentences. All the article is referencied, if you see something wrong, try to discuss about it. I suggest to read the talk page first. --Giovanni Giove 18:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I support Giovanni in his honest intentions to have this article here - however under the right title Giorgio Orsini. If something is not right, deficient, or for one or other reason shall be changed - it shall be clearly named and elaborated. As to the Name controversy - I suggest removing this paragraph due to the fact that there is no controversy at all. All we have is to point at names which this architect used or was known under - during his life. Definitively, it is not 'Juraj Dalmatinac'. To completely understand problem of Dalmazia and the Croatian and the Italian aspiration to that region - read The Habsburg Monarchy 1809-1918 by A, J. P. Taylor, Harper Torchbooks, 1965.
I'd like to contribute much to this article - provided that its correct name is put back (Giorgio Orsini). As it can be seen from my previous discussion, I've mentioned several books and web links about Giorgio Orsini. The 'Juraj Dalmatinac' name is definitively a forgery that shall not be mentioned in the biography of this Italian Renaissance architect due to the fact that it has no biographical data validity.--GiorgioOrsini 19:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I've no intention of getting involved in a content dispute with either of you because this is hardly an article I wish to dedicate more time to. Though it's in breach of so many of Wikipedia guidelines I would have been perfectly content with a POV tag irrespective of the content. The efforts of Giovanni Giove, however, have once again made it clear that this approach is a futile one. I will therefore clearly mark every single POV sentence and label every section with an appropriate tag. Well done. --RedZebra 18:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
May you tell me which kind of 'efforts' have I done? What is clear for you? I've just done some correction on some rough historic errors. Please list the rules I'd break according to you. Thank you.--Giovanni Giove 18:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

There's no need to enter in an argument with you. Here is the list of the things that need to be improved:

  • Giorgio Orsini (- no reference as to why this name is listed first.
  • usually called Giorgio da Sebenico - why is he usually called Giorgio da Sebenico.
  • Sebenico - why is the Italian name used (and to avoid repetition, this refers to all the names mentioned in the article)?
  • He was educated in Venice - normally this wouldn't call for a reference, but here it happens to be relevant.
  • His opus represents the golden age of Dalmatian medieval art. - according to who?
  • surprisingly realistic for the period. - again, why? Whose claim is this?
  • About the name there is a nationalistic dispute. - this needs to be supported with a reference. Otherwise this is original research.
  • the architect is alternatively presented as the Italian 'Giorgio Orsini', or the Croat 'Juraj Dalmantinac'. - a reference needed. Again original research.
  • The Italian name 'Giorgio Orsini' was always in use even in international works. - weasel words again. This cannot be referrenced and needs to be rephrased.
  • according to a recent theory published in Croatia - another weasel term (a recent theory) - if so what did they claim before? Reference needed.
  • That not the case of 'Giorgio da Sebenico', that was in use during the life of the man. - obviously a reference needed. This is original research.
  • The slavic name - weasel terms.
  • Reference provided: La letteratura italiana in Dalmazia: una storia falsificata. - Am I right in translating this as: "Italian literature in Dalmatia: a falsified story." - Does this publication meet Wikipedia guidelines? The title is quite telling. Irrespective of this, the solution to this should be: According to the book by XY...
  • The Latin nickname 'Georgius Dalmaticus' is present on relief by the north apse of Cathedral of St.Jacob he signed: "hoc opus cuvarum fecit magister Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus" - if this is true, how can there be any debate as to the name of the artist?

--RedZebra 18:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks like RedZebra is trying to give us orders - even without reading the discussion above or finding {fact}s ie. learning about the subject he tried to discuss.
  • Giorgio Orsini (- no reference as to why this name is listed first. - there are many references confirming that 'Juraj Dalmatinac' is just a forgery.
  • About the name there is a nationalistic dispute. - this needs to be supported with a reference. Otherwise this is original research. - Already supported - again, read the discussion
  • The Latin nickname 'Georgius Dalmaticus' is present on relief by the north apse of Cathedral of St.Jacob he signed: "hoc opus cuvarum fecit magister Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus" - if this is true, how can there be any debate as to the name of the artist? - try to understand the difference between his artist's name and the real name.
As a disinterested party who has initiated the survey that led to the reinstatement of the original name of the article, - Far from true. You are very interested in - which resulted in replacing the architect's real name (Giorgio Orsini) by the fake ('Juraj Dalmatinac')
All the rest is of far less importance and, the first thing is to give to this article the correct title - 'Giorgio Orsini'. Respecting a man, his work and life, means - at the first place - to respect ie. to use his real name.
--GiorgioOrsini 01:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Of course.--Giovanni Giove 13:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Which discussion? The article is full of weasel words whereby you try to dismiss the arguments of Croatian sources. "There are many references confirming that 'Juraj Dalmatinac' is just a forgery". Well, which one? The one titled "La letteratura italiana in Dalmazia: una storia falsificata."? For the start, that name can't be "just a forgery" because it apparently wasn't his given name, but a (translation of) artist name akin to e.g. El Greco. The only reference to "nationalistic dispute" I see is this very talk page, and it certainly isn't a reliable source. And, you keep on ad hominem attacking the people who pinpoint that the article sucks ("is trying to give us orders", "far from true, you're very interested in"). Duja► 08:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The 'nationalistic disupte' is evident and is present in nearly all the Dalmatian personalities, that today are always presented as Croatian, with Croaticized names (such as Ivan Lupis-Vukic, Frane Petric, Ivan Lucic, etc.) It is not important if it is not know even a single line wrotten in Croatian by this people, and the Croatian names are just later traslations.... they were born in the present day Croatia, and this is enough to make them Croats.--Giovanni Giove 14:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The "nationalistic dispute" is "evident and present" only in the Wikipedia articles and talk pages and partisan literature, and we avoid self-references anyway. Frankly, I don't know or care about all those persons: some of them likely are of Croatian origin, yet others are of mixed ancestry, for some we even can't know for certain. Even those of Croatian origin used (mostly) Latin in their works, as it was the language of prestige. The ethnic identity in Venetian republic was fairly irrelevant at those times. But I'm amused with the amount of energy you're spending to "cleaning up Croatian nationalism" by countering it with Italian nationalism, and graffiting the "nationalistic dispute" all over the articles see e.g this beauty, and beautiful words like "The slavic name 'Juraj Dalmatinac' was introduced after the death of Orsini", "" when there is in fact none in the real world. If Croats claim a person to be a Croat in a relevant source, record the fact and go on. Duja► 14:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Cool! What about the "some of them" that "likely are of Italian origin"?.--Giovanni Giove 09:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Duja has already provided us with useful insight into the matter so I'll be brief. Changes whereby some POV statements have been backed by the same written source about the "falsified litterature etc." have done little to bring the article closer to meeting Wikipedia's guidelines. The shortcomings which I've listed above continue to exist so there's no need to repeat myself. I will however ask the user responsible for the above cited diff to check his contributions against the guidelines such as WP:NOT, WP:NOR, WP:V and, especially, NPOV. There's plenty of information there that's well worth assimilating. --RedZebra 20:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

If you think the source is not valid tell why with your own word, otherwise let it be. Duja has said nothing or relevant.--Giovanni Giove 21:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Duja did not provide anything except meaningless comparison (El Greco lifetime nickname equivalent to the 'translated' Juraj Dalmatinac name - done by some Croat more than three hundred years after the Orsini's death). Also, claiming that Orsini was an Italian Renaissance painter has nothing to do with Duja's 'ethnic identity'. Here the adjective Italian marks people who lived in the medieval Italy which inculdes Papal state, Venitian and Genoese Republics. This adjective is widely accepted historic notion and it is used here that way. Also, Duja's if Croats claim a person to be a Croat in a relevant source, record the fact and go on lacks basic civilty to be considered as a fact at all. Claiming that instead Giorgio Orsini name - the world shall accept Juraj Dalmatinac name? In a relevant source?--GiorgioOrsini 01:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
That's not what I said, and I don't appreciate your twisting of my words (just like I don't appreciate your "good cop-bad cop" sockpuppetry). If I'd wish to play an advocate, I could say that Italy "didn't exist" at that time just like Croatia "didn't exist" at that time, so neither "Italian" nor "Croatian" should apply.
As I see it, the main problem is that this (and other related) discussion has shifted long ago from a content dispute into personal issues that you have with Croatian editors, to which you contributed much by namecalling, uncalled-for sockpuppetry and using words like "propaganda", "nonsense", "forgeries", "false claims", "lacks basic civility to be considered as a fact at all" in edit summaries and talk, unilateral page moves, and dismissing Croatian sources in the articles with weasel words and poisoning the well. It reached the point where pretty much everyone assumes bad faith on your side (and with good reasons).
Yes, you do have a point that the artist is most often referred to as Giorgio Orsini or Giorgio da Sebenico, and that the article should be called like that (if that's what you like to hear). The methods you use to present your arguments are unacceptable though, and most of the issues stem from that. Your behavior pissed off many editors, even those who are willing to compromise and accept the arguments, like Dijxtra and RedZebra. Duja► 08:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed this because the page would not save with it in "banned link" apparently- I've no idea what it is about- you can find the place in the history:
L'Adriatico orientale e la sterile ricerca della nazionalità delle persone; by Krstjan Knez http://xoomerDOTaliceDOTit/histria/storiaecultura/testiedocumenti/articoligiornali/artadriatico.htm]</ref>."
Johnbod 22:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I will ask to put it in clear a.s.a., meanwhile keep the citation, because it is important to mantain a NPOV.--Giovanni Giove 10:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

You must be kidding about the English! I made a large number of changes and removed the large gaps. You changed one word, & it is still not right. I had to remove the reference to save the page. You can easily restore it if is unbanned. I will revert to the version in good English when i have time, unless you want to do so, restoring the reference Johnbod 11:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I've finished now. You still have to realize what have you done with reference. Have a look. Greetings.--Giovanni Giove 11:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

"Name controversy"

I've removed the weasel words from the paragraph, clearly identified what every source claims and neutralised the section. I've also changed the Latin to English translation of "...Mathei de Jadra Civis Sibenicenis" into "Mathei from Zara, citizen of Sibenik". Whether Jadra is Zara or Zadar, I've no idea, but Sibenicenis obviously bears resemblance with the Croatian name of the town.". There is also a funny sentence in English which makes no sense at all which I tagged with "fact". I humbly call upon the user who was last to "improove English" to rephrase it and provide it with a reference, preferably one in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. --RedZebra 18:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I've 'improoved' English, just restoring improvement by Johnbod, so shut up. By the way, I see that you are tottaly ignorant on this subjects, and you are here just to conduct personal attacks. Of course I've deleted an amount of your wrong and unsupported 'improovemts'. Try to discuss ant to support them, next time.--Giovanni Giove 15:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Move. If further discussion results in consensus for Giorgio da Sebenico, that move is not blocked so go ahead. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested move to Giorgio Orsini

Juraj Dalmatinac → Giorgio Orsini — As I explained it earlier, personal names of any man are not 'translatable' - as it was done here by translating the Orsini's artist name Georgius Dalmaticus into Juraj Dalmatinac. There is a wast number of references giving the correct (this famous architect) name and a number of references explaining when the 'Juraj Dalmatinac' name was invented and for what purposes. Please, if opposing to this move, make your explanation rational. As per my analysis of the Google search used to 'prove' that the right name is Juraj Dalmatinac due to the 'fact' that this name is in use today [6] - it is clear that this use comes mainly from Croatia and from the tourist industry selling the tourist destinations in Croatia. GiorgioOrsini 20:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Survey - Support votes

  1. Support - as the nominator. --Giorgio Orsini 02:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support Speaking strictly from the historian prospective, I wonder how it is possible to vote whether is something right or wrong? Is the effective knowledge of the subject - a criterion or not here? As far as I know the history of medieval Italy - Giorgio Orsini are the arcitect's personal names. If the decision is going to be based on the votes only - please, take my vote off the count.--BarryMar 17:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
  3. Support After having read the elements brought by BarryMar and Johnbod, I support this renaming as better than the present solution; but I'm open also to Giorgio da Sebenico.--Aldux 21:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
  4. Support though I do not support nominators reasoning. It doesn't matter what is a translation of what; what matters is better known in English as Giorgio Orsini. Gene Nygaard 17:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


  • From what I have seen so far, I would support Giorgio da Sebenico, as proposed by Johnbod. But I think that more clear references are still needed. - Evv 08:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

My attitude, following Wikipedia policy, is to look for the most commonly used name in English. What he called himself, or was called by other contemporaries, is less important. I looked at The "Getty Union List of Artists Names" which is the most reputable source for the correct English name. They have: [7]

  • Giorgio da Sebenico
  • (Dalmatian architect and sculptor, active from ca. 1441, died 1473) [500003656]
  • Giorgio Orsini
  • Orsini, Giorgio

- "Giorgio da Sebenico" would therefore get my support, and maybe is a more acceptable compromise to all? Johnbod 04:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand your compromise term? English language is polysemantic and one of the compromise meaning is a concession to something derogatory or prejudicial (Merriam Webster online). So, why not to accept the architect's personal names?--BarryMar 18:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

That is not the meaning I was using. "Why not accept ....?" Because Wikipedia policy is to use the "most commonly used name in English". Fortunately for us, in the case of artists, the Getty has done all the hard work in establishing what this is, and the result is "Giorgio da Sebenico". As you know, there are hundreds of artists whose "real" name is not normallly used: El Greco,Fra Angelico, Titian..... Johnbod 19:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't buy it. Getty is not an authority as you try to imply. Also Getty says about the names:
Preferred Name
"preferred" following a name indicates that the name is the so-called "preferred name" for the record. It is typically the first in a list of names in the record.
A preferred name or "descriptor" is flagged in order to provide a default term for displays. It may also be used by cataloguers who wish to apply ULAN as an "authority," and consistently use a single name to refer to an artist. In ULAN, the "preferred" name is the commonly used name in American English. Other languages may also be flagged. For example, the preferred Italian spelling could be marked with a "P," as in "Italian-P."
Getty's work is a work of a librarian - which is far from being complete or representative. I prefer the works of historians. If you, for example, use Google search on books available at booksellers and libraries - you'll get 81 Giorgio da Sebenico names and 89 Giorgio Orsini names.
Your comparison of the Giorgio da Sebenico name to the El Greco, Titian, etc. names - is not rational from the historic point of view and is invented by you here - in order to support your own claim.
--BarryMar 18:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually this comparison considerably strengthens my case. These results (amazingly I got exactly the same figures as you for once) are not for "books available at booksellers and libraries" at all, they are books whose texts are fully online. Most of them are out of copyright and have been out of print for decades if not centuries. Many (in both counts) are not in English, and most of the Giorgio Orsini ones are ordinary tourist guidebooks - not by historians at all. In contrast, Giorgio da Sebenico ones include several notable and recent art historians like David Rostand (Columbia U Venetian specialist) Evelyn Welch etc, & also Thieme Becker (biggest art biographical dictionary) & several official publications - including some Croatian ones.

You quite unjustifiably knock the Getty, and then attempt to do your own exercise on the same lines, without any proper analysis, and just using one Google search! The Getty "preferred name" is indeed the commonest name in English - which is exactly what Wikipedia policy says we should use. If an Italian preferred name was indicated (and significantly none is), that should be used in the Italian WP. --Johnbod 19:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, let us be more rational. Your claim " ... they are books whose texts are fully online." is baseless. These books are not fully online, - online are the title, author(s) name(s), possibly publisher name, and some excerpts (index, preface, copyright). Also, after clicking the book link there will be visible a window pane that includes something like this:
Buy this book
Yale University Press - Publisher
Amazon.com
Barnes&Noble.com
BookSense.com
Froogle
Find this book in a library
So, it is apparent that my claim about books available at bookselsers and libraries is valid.
I did not say that all the books are written by historians - I claimed only a historian point of view: collect all possible information about a subject and then deliver your opinion. As to your art historians whose authority you ultimately claimed, I'll ask you a simple question - how do you made them above say Frederic H Jones (The Concise Dictionary of Architectural and Design History by Frederic H Jones - Architecture - 1955) or Wolfgang Lotz, Ludwig Heinrich Heydenreich, Paul Davies (Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 by Wolfgang Lotz, Ludwig Heinrich Heydenreich, Paul Davies - History - 1996)??? All the above mentioned used Giorgio Orsini name.
Actually, Heydenreich uses Giorgio da Sebenico (index included), but Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico appears in at least one instance. - Regards, Evv 07:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
And, finally, about Getty. Getty librarian claims: the "preferred" name is the commonly used name in American English. OK, then the same librarian references:
VP - Getty Vocabulary Program - self reference
GRLPSC - Getty Research Institute, Research Library Photo Study Collection - self reference
The refereces below are not the American English references at all:
WCP - Witt Checklist of Painters ca. 1200-1976 (A checklist of painters c.1200-1994: represented in the Witt Library, Courtauld Institute of Art, London.)
Grove Art Online. Oxford University Press, 2003
BHA - Bibliography of the History of Art / Bibliographie d'Histoire de l'Art
RILA/BHA (1975-2000) - Repetoire internationale de la litterature de l'art
Yes, sometimes is enough to give a very simple proof (Google search) to defeat a nonsense
--BarryMar 20:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Simple tests

Google Print test

Google Scholar test

Amazon.com test

  • Searching for "Giorgio Orsini": 3 books in English (including one using Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico), 2 of which are travel guides.
  • Searching for "Giorgio da Sebenico": 6 books in English (including one using Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico), 2 of which are travel guides.
  • Searching for "Juraj Dalmatinac": 15 books in English, 10 of which are travel guides.
    Searching for "Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac": 0 books in English.

Best regards, Evv 05:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Books

Using Giorgio da Sebenico:

  • Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 by Ludwig H. Heydenreich, Yale University Press; Second Revised edition, 1996, ISBN 0-300-06467-5, p.74, 80, 101 & 183 (index):
    ...by Giorgio da Sebenico, whose hand...
    ...with Giorgio da Sebenico...
    ...as important as Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico and...
    Giorgio da Sebenico...
  • Venice & the East: The Impact of the Islamic World on Venetian Architecture 1100-1500 by Deborah Howard, Yale University Press, 2000. ISBN 0-300-08504-4, p.43, 183 & 275 (index):
    ...Dalmatian mason-architect Giorgio da Sebenico, who...
    ...Dalmatian assistant, Giorgio da Sebenico, who...
    Giorgio da Sebenico (Jurai Dalmatinac)... (sic)
  • Myths of Venice: The Figuration of a State by David Rosand, The University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, 2001, ISBN 0-8078-2641-3, p.159:
    ...who ascribes the relief to Giorgio da Sebenico.
  • From Filippo Lippi to Piero della Francesca: Fra Carnevale and the Making of a Renaissance Master by Keith Christiansen, Metropolitan Museum of Art Publications, New York, 2005, ISBN 0-300-10716-1, p.106 & 132:
    ...at Ancona Giorgio da Sebenico juxtaposed...
    On Giorgio da Sebenico's Ancona workshops...
  • Art in Renaissance Italy: 1350-1500 by Evelyn Welch, Oxford University Press, 2001, ISBN 0-19-284279-X, p. 65 & 347 (index):
    ...by his apprentice Giorgio da Sebenico (d. 1475), who...
    Giorgio da Sebenico...


Using Juraj Dalmatinac:

  • The Italian Renaissance by Peter Burke, Polity Press, Second revised edition, Cambridge, 1999, ISBN 0-7456-2138-4, p. 46 & 296 (index):
    ...the architect-sculptor Juraj Dalmatinac came from Sibenik.
    Dalmatinac, Juraj (Giorgio da Sebenico), sculptor...
  • A Short History of the Yugoslav Peoples by Fred Singleton, Cambridge University Press, 1999, ISBN 0-521-27485-0, p.63 & 300 (index):
    One of Juraj Dalmatinac's early works...
    Dalmatinac, Juraj...
  • Croatia in the Early Middle Ages: A Cultural Survey by Ivan Supičić (Editor), Philip Wilson Publishers, London, 2003, ISBN 0-85667-499-0, p.45, 91 & 625 (index):
    ...in the field of architecture and fine arts (Juraj Dalmatinac...
    Juraj M. Dalmatinac.
    Juraj Dalmatinac, Croatian sculptor...
(This book is a translation from the Croatian by Nina Key-Antoljak & Krešimir Sidor of Hrvatska i Europa. Kultura, znanost i umjetnost, vol. I: Rano doba hrvatske kulture by Ivan Supičić (Editor), AGM & Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Zagreb, 1997)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Further Move to Giorgio da Sebenico - preliminaries

I had asked the WP:RM administrators to relist the move request instead of closing it. The closing administrator, Wknight94, decided to move the page anyway (thus reducing WP:RM's workload) because a further move to Giorgio da Sebenico would not require an administrator's help, and we could do it ourselves. He explained so at WP:RM and encouraged us in his RM-closing comment here to "go ahead" and continue the debate on Orsini or da Sebenico.

If nobody objects, I would prefer that while we continue discussing a possible move to Giorgio da Sebenico we file a new proper move request (Giorgio Orsini → Giorgio da Sebenico) at WP:RM, to publicize the issue and thus attract other editors that could add to the discussion. - Best regards, Evv 19:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. This section is now hard to reach to edit so I will create a new header above Johnbod 22:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Tag above, WP:RM notice & survey section now done Johnbod 22:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks :-) I made a few changes (diff.) to reflect the standard RM format, and copied the relevant sources from the previous discussion, to make this move request a self-sufficient one. Feel free to revert this changes (or to ask me to revert them :-)
After this third RM in as many months (!) is over, it would be a good time to archive this talk page and start anew. - Best regards, Evv 02:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus to move. —Mets501 (talk) 03:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested Move to Giorgio da Sebenico

Giorgio Orsini → Giorgio da Sebenico — The last move request (Dec 26,2006) was from Juraj Dalmatinac → Giorgio Orsini, which has now suceeded, after 4:0 votes cast in the survey. During the discussion above, I gave reasons why I thought Giorgio da Sebenico the better choice, which are further confirmed by the fuller research by User:Evv above. Neither of us voted in the last survey. Opinions expressed passim on this further move by the 4 who did vote are: one for, one against.

Giorgio da Sebenico is the mostly commonly used name in English, and is used by the preponderance of high-quality reference works. See the full discussion above.

I do not propose changing the current lead sentence of the article, just the article. Apologies to all for putting everyone through it again, but let's get it completely right! - Johnbod 22:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Survey - Support votes

  1. Support - as the nominator Johnbod 22:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support per nom. - Evv 23:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support - Per Evv's arguments below. --RedZebra 04:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
  4. Support per nom. Duja►
  5. Support I observe with some amusement that one of the sources for Giorgio Orsini actually says he is erroneously known as Giorgio Orsini. Move him to the name by which he is known, like Masaccio. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
    The Google Print count has been modified in accordance with this comment (diff.) - Evv 08:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
    He was very well known under his real name (Giorgio Orsini) during his life. There is five references given confirming that.--Giorgio Orsini 13:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
    The same thing can be said of Massacio. What we want is the name under which he is now known in English, for the convenience of our readers. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes

  1. Oppose The tests below are not accurate nor complete. The search must include "Orsini, Giorgio", too. The counting of the "Giorgio da Sebenico" nick-name occurences is inaccurate, for example. Also, I prefer his personal names over the nick-name.--Giorgio Orsini 02:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
    This opinion is being discussed below, in the On inaccuracy sub-section. "Orsini, Giorgio" is now included in the searches. - Evv 20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Oppose I prefer the first and second names over the nickname. The proposed change would not improve the article value.--BarryMar 21:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
    This opinion is being discussed below, in the On his 'real' name sub-section. - Evv 20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
  3. Oppose The only real and historically documented name is 'Giorgio Orsini'. Orsini became famous in Sebenico to later move to Ancona. Here he assumed the nickname 'Giorgio da Sebenico'. For this reason in the work about Dalmatia is called 'Giorgio Orsini', whilst, when dealing with Ancona, is called 'Giorgio da Sebenico'[8][9]--Giovanni Giove 15:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
    This opinion is being discussed below, in the On his 'real' name sub-section. - Evv 22:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
  4. Oppose If his son claimed that their family name was Orsini (as per Croatian sources) and if he signed a contract as Giorgio Orsini - I do not see any reason for doubting what were his personal names.--NovaNova 02:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Simple tests

Google Print test

Google Scholar test

Amazon.com test

  • Searching for "Giorgio da Sebenico": 6 books in English (including one using Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico), 2 of which are travel guides.
  • Searching for "Giorgio Orsini": 3 books in English (one using Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico, the other 2 are travel guides).
  • Searching for "Orsini, Giorgio": 1 book in English, mentioning "Orsini, Giorgio, see Giorgio da Sebenico" (p.184), and already included in both searches immediatly above (it's the one using Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico once -- Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 by Ludwig H. Heydenreich, see below).

Books

Using Giorgio da Sebenico:

  • Architecture in Italy, 1400-1500 by Ludwig H. Heydenreich, Yale University Press; Second Revised edition, 1996, ISBN 0-300-06467-5, p.74, 80, 101, 183 (index) & 184 (index):
    ...by Giorgio da Sebenico, whose hand...
    ...with Giorgio da Sebenico...
    ...as important as Giorgio Orsini da Sebenico and...
    Giorgio da Sebenico...
    Orsini, Giorgio, see Giorgio da Sebenico.
  • Venice & the East: The Impact of the Islamic World on Venetian Architecture 1100-1500 by Deborah Howard, Yale University Press, 2000. ISBN 0-300-08504-4, p.43, 183 & 275 (index):
    ...Dalmatian mason-architect Giorgio da Sebenico, who...
    ...Dalmatian assistant, Giorgio da Sebenico, who...
    Giorgio da Sebenico (Jurai Dalmatinac)... (sic)
  • Myths of Venice: The Figuration of a State by David Rosand, The University of North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, 2001, ISBN 0-8078-2641-3, p.159:
    ...who ascribes the relief to Giorgio da Sebenico.
  • From Filippo Lippi to Piero della Francesca: Fra Carnevale and the Making of a Renaissance Master by Keith Christiansen, Metropolitan Museum of Art Publications, New York, 2005, ISBN 0-300-10716-1, p.106 & 132:
    ...at Ancona Giorgio da Sebenico juxtaposed...
    On Giorgio da Sebenico's Ancona workshops...
  • Art in Renaissance Italy: 1350-1500 by Evelyn Welch, Oxford University Press, 2001, ISBN 0-19-284279-X, p. 65 & 347 (index):
    ...by his apprentice Giorgio da Sebenico (d. 1475), who...
    Giorgio da Sebenico...
  • The Italian Renaissance by Peter Burke, Polity Press, Second revised edition, Cambridge, 1999, ISBN 0-7456-2138-4, p. 46 & 296 (index):
    ...the architect-sculptor Juraj Dalmatinac came from Sibenik.
    Dalmatinac, Juraj (Giorgio da Sebenico), sculptor...

Best regards, Evv 23:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


Using Giorgio Orsini:

  • The Concise Dictionary of Architectural and Design History, by Frederic H. Jones, Crisp Publications, Los Altos, 1992, ISBN 1-56052-069-8, p.286:
    Orsini, Giorgio (da Sebenico): Giorgio appears to have been born at Zara, Dalmatia.

Discussion

Please see previous discussion above (in the Juraj Dalmatinac → Giorgio Orsini move request) before commenting.
Add any additional comments:
  • Comment: Please, keep in mind that, per WP:NC, for the purposes of naming this article the names used for this artist by Latin, Italian, Croatian or Chinese-speaking individuals and authors (of the past, present and future) are irrelevant. Instead, we should consider only the names commonly used in English-language reliable sources (mainly those originating in the UK, USA, Ireland, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc.) - Evv 02:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: Contributing to Wikipedia is meant to be a joint effort resulting in good articles and not about pushing one's political agenda and certainly not about bullying anyone with an opposing or sceptical view away from the article. This article will probably have to wait until some anxious to "clean it up", "remove NPOV" and "improove" it decide to take up another hobby and do something that they may hopefully find out they're actually more talented at. I feel amused too that it wasn't until less than two months ago that this supposedly great Italian artist (as some seem almost desparate to convince others) seemed to become worthy enough to deserve his own page in Italian Wikipedia. When he finally did get it he had to content himeself with what apparently seems to be the translation of this page. Quite telling and quite unsurprising. --RedZebra 04:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC) This comment was moved from the "Survey" section above (diff.). Evv 21:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Again RedZebra conducts personal attacks against a specific user, without to give any kind of valid support to his 'opinions'. As a consequence the value of his vote is negligible. I point out that Wikipedia is not a democracy and that all the votes must be supported by valid arguments.--Giovanni Giove 13:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

On inaccuracy

The tests below are not accurate nor complete. The search must include "Orsini, Giorgio", too. The counting of the "Giorgio da Sebenico" nick-name occurences is inaccurate, for example. [...] --Giorgio Orsini 02:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Inaccurate in which way, may I ask ? Could you elaborate, please ? - Best regards, Evv 04:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
For example, your Searching for "Giorgio da Sebenico": 15 books in English, 4 of which are travel guides gives
The Concise Dictionary of Architectural and Design History - Page 286 by Frederic H Jones - Architecture - 1955 - 344 pages [ARCHITECT AND SCULPTOR] Orsini, Giorgio (da Sebenico): Giorgio appears to have been born at Zara, Dalmatia. His family was a branch of the noble Roman ...
Sturgis' Illustrated Dictionary of Architecture and Building: An Unabridged Reprint of the 1901-2... - Page 254 by Russell Sturgis - Architecture - 1989 - 539 pages GIORGIO DA SEBENICO. (See Ores-ni, Gion-gio.) GIOTTO DI BONDONE; painter ...
... which actually supports Giorgio Orsini as a valid name.--Giorgio Orsini 16:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I did not count The Concise Dictionary of Architectural and Design History for the very reason you mention (including it, it would have been 16 books in English).
You're right regarding Sturgis' Illustrated Dictionary of Architecture and Building: it was a good-faith mistake, for which I apologize. I have corrected the number in the count, making it 14 books in English.
I have now included Orsini, Giorgio in the searches. - Best regards, Evv 20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Septentrionalis mentioned another mistake on my part. The Google Print count has been modified in accordance to his comment (diff.) - Evv 08:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

On his 'real' name

I prefer the first and second names over the nickname. The proposed change would not improve the article value.--BarryMar 21:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, the "real name" of this architect remains a mystery: we simply don't know how his mother called him, as is the case with so many other figures from this period. In that sense Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus, Juraj Matejev Dalmatinac, Giorgio da Sebenico and Giorgio Orsini are all "nicknames" or supositions.
Since I could be wrong, and to help improve this discussion, could you please mention the sources that claim Giorgio Orsini as his "real" name ? Thanks already. - Best regards, Evv 21:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
FYI - Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria: with Cettigne in Montenegro and the island of Grado - Page 416 by Thomas Graham Jackson - 1887. Contract with Giorgio Orsini for his services as architect of the cathedral of Sebenico, A.D. 1441 (Signed at the bottom of the original document as Giorgio Orsini - the photocopy of document is not given here in this book)--Giorgio Orsini 16:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for citing the book, GiorgioOrsini. But apparently, this it's just your personal interpretation of a primary source, i.e. your understanding that the architect signing a document as Giorgio Orsini means that this was his real name. This constitutes original research.
Per WP:V, what would be required is the citation of a reliable secondary source by an historian or a genealogist that shares your interpretation of this document. - Best regards, Evv 20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not my personal interpretation. The original document exists in some Venitian Republic state archives. Claiming this way that Giorgio Orsini is not real name is baseless. You have to learn a bit more about the legislative part of the Serenissima.--Giorgio Orsini 03:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I freely admit that I have no idea whatsoever of the legislative and administrative processes of the Venetian Republic, nor of its archives :-) I assume that by "the original document" you are refering to the actual contract mentioned by Thomas Graham Jackson. Is this so ? - Evv 04:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't find this discussion rational anymore. As to the Orsini's first and second names - to sign a very profitable contract using a nick name - hardly could be considered a serious job in the Serenissima of that time. So, he signed it following the ony legal way.--Giorgio Orsini 03:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I understood you well, both regarding "the original document" and your reasoning. Let's see if I got it right; this is what I understood:
Venetian law required "real, true" names to be used when signing legal documents such as contracts, therefore his signing G.O. guarantees that this was his "real, true" name... and that G.da S. was only his "nickname".
Did I got it right ? - Best regards, Evv 03:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


The only real and historically documented name is 'Giorgio Orsini'. Orsini became famous in Sebenico to later move to Ancona. Here he assumed the nickname 'Giorgio da Sebenico'. For this reason in the work about Dalmatia is called 'Giorgio Orsini', whilst, when dealing with Ancona, is called 'Giorgio da Sebenico'[10][11]--Giovanni Giove 15:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you please source your initial statement, that the only real and historically documented is Giorgio Orsini, or is it your personal opinion ? Thanks already. - Best regards, Evv 20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Giorgio da Sebenico, means 'George coming from Sebenico', like 'Leonardo da Vinci' (who was born in Vinci). Orsini was in Ancona, after working in Sebenico, so the statment is obvious (anyway is here the source [12]). 'Giorgio Orsini' and 'Giorgio da Sebenico' have about the some relevance in English, so I think is better to leave the 'real' name, and to leave the original name of the article. Another source is the sentence Giorgio appears to have been born at Zara, Dalmatia. His family was a branch of the noble Roman Family Orsini (from "The Concise Dictionary of Architectural and Design History - Pag.286, by Frederic H Jones, 1955--Giovanni Giove 13:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
For the purposes of Wikipedia, this concise dictionary hardly seems to be a good source for such a dramatic claim (i.e. that Giorgio Orsini was his "real" name). At best, it could be used to write: F.H. Jones mentions that his family was a branch of the noble Roman family Orsini.ref We still lack a reliable source argumenting in clear terms that his "real, true" name was Giorgio Orsini. - Best regards, Evv 22:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, until somebody demonstrates the contrary, "Orsini" shall be considered the only real and true name. As a matter of fact, there is no reason to argue that this name was false or was not used by the artist.
About the connection with the Roman family:
  • The Republic of Ragusa: An Episode of the Turkish Conquest by Luigi Villari - 1904 - Pag. 343 "He left Ragusa in June, and was succeeded by Giorgio Orsini of Sebenico. The latter, a scion of a branch of the great Roman family of Orsini"
  • A Yacht in Mediterranean Seas - Pag. by Isabel Anderson - 1930 "Giorgio Orsini, of the princely Roman family of that name, was the architect of the latter period, in the fifteenth century."
  • A Holiday in Umbria: With an Account of Urbino and the Cortegiano of Castiglione - Pag. 36 by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson - 1916 "Giorgio Orsini, of a Zaratine family that claimed descent from the noble Roman house, was the architect of Orsini"
  • Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria: with Cettigne in Montenegro and the island of Grado - Pag. 389 di Thomas Graham Jackson - 1887 "...concerning the life and works of Giorgio Orsini which are very valuable... His family descent from the Orsini ..."
Greetings. --Giovanni Giove 19:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe that for this controvertial case referring to someone from the late Middle Age who originated in Venice-controlled Dalmatia, at a time in which names were not used ans understood as they are now, considerations or assumptions based on the sources but made by us editors constitute original reaserch.
WP:OR#SYNTHESIS is very clear about it:
Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article.
I'm not arguing that Giorgio Orsini wasn't his real and true name, but merely that for stating that as a fact we lack the proper sources required by WP:V & WP:NOR - Best regards, Evv 21:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
If you don't argue that 'Orsini' is false, that means that 'Orsini' is true.
Anyway there is a number of documents that demonstrate this fact: in the present case we have 5 reliable sources that claim that Orsini was a member of the famous Orsini family (just hypothesis A, without arguning anything, so that this shall considered a fact).
Futhemore here we have a source that tell us there is a contrcact signed as 'Orsini' [13]--Giovanni Giove 17:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Giovanni, I have absolutely no problem with "Giorgio Orsini" being his real name, but that is irrelevant to the issue of his most commonly used name in English, which is what we must decide! See Titian, Leonardo da Vinci, El Greco, in fact most major Italian artists, not to mention Pele, Ronaldo and so on. How many times does this point have to be made??? Johnbod 17:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Your comparison is completely wrong. All Brazilian soccer fans know who is Pele, but hardly any knows what are his given and family names - which is not the case with Orsini's names and nickname. Also, your test gives the same weight to some article (using da Sebenico nickname) which might be known to only a few people and to the Michellin tourist guide (using Orsini name) printed in millions of examples and in everyday's use by millions of tourists visiting Italy year after year.--Giorgio Orsini 13:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Name of Zadar,Šibenik and the rest of Dalmatian towns

Quote from [[14]] page; "Please, keep in mind that, per WP:NC, for the purposes of naming this article the names used for this artist by Latin, Italian, Croatian or Chinese-speaking individuals and authors (of the past, present and future) are irrelevant. Instead, we should consider only the names commonly used in English-language" Trogir is known in English language as Trogir, not Trau:) And that is also its historical name (on Croatian language). And Šibenik was founded by Croat king Petar Krešimir IV:) The same goes for the name of Juraj Dalmatinac. |Ceha 19:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The claim above about the toponyms is baseless. The toponyms are given as used in the time of life and work of this archtiect. Also, the same names are used in the English literature of that time and now - when referring to the times when Dalmazia was part of the Serenissima. The same does not go for 'Juraj Dalmatinac' due to the fact that this is a fake name invented for the political purposes by Croatian nationalists.--Giorgio Orsini 00:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I've already told to Ceha, to give a look to ANY kind of atlas&maps printed before 1918. I doesn't matter if printed in Spain, UK, Germany, AUSTRIA, HUNGARY, North or South America..... It seems it was useless. When you have time give a look to Republic of Ragusa. See you.--Giovanni Giove 20:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
What have I done? Just look at the date of our conversation and when I asked this question. It is basicly the same question which I asked you, with exception that Giorgio answered me with a month and a half delay.

--Ceha 21:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

ok. Sorry--Giovanni Giove 22:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

weasel

Giovanni, the "discussion" you refer to in your edit summary is above, it settled the page name, and the last post on this talk page was on 2 March. From then on, you renamed the neutrally, if not best, worded secton "Name controversy" April 22 into "Trivia" and added a bunch of weasel words where you butchered it into "This last name is anyway deprived of bases, being a recent translation of 'Georgius Dalmaticus'", ..."however without any valid historic documents supporting this claim". I can't read Italian except barely, but what I can conclude are the (apparently chery-picked) debates accross newspapers on how evil Croatians steal Italian history. I don't see how is this x-link even pertinent to the subject. Even if you have "won" the name battle, that doesn't give you a blank license, and the wording of the section as it currently is barely would pass in a "letters to the editor" rubric of a newspaper, and hardly an encyclopedia. Duja► 15:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

False: there is a paper Letteratura italiana in Dalmatia: una storia falsicata by Giacomo Scotti, which is the main source. And yes, there are also some newpapers articles. This articles were inserted just to show that we don't deal with the single opinion of Scotti, but we face a well know problem (not in Croatia, of course). I wonder where you have read about 'evil Cratians'... by the way Kristjan Knez live in Croatia, Scotti the same (since 1946). Bye--Giovanni Giove 12:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Disqualifications of the text like the one provided by Duja cannot be regarded as a good faith edit. About true name and Orsini's origins - see this very well documented book Dalmatia, the Quarnero and Istria, with Cettigne in Montenegro and the Island of Grado by Sir Thomas Graham Jackson, published in 1887 by Clarendon press. My advice to the fighters for the Orsini's 'Croatian' names - not to discuss anymore - rather to provide serious and verifiable references. As to the "letters to the editor" - I would qualify all Croatian 'references' that way - due to the lack of any primary references that might be used in order to support their claims about the Orsini's 'Croatdom'.--Giorgio Orsini 01:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


Names

There are no any Zara , Sebenico , Dalmazia. As well as there no Hong Kong, Peking etc. There are only Zadar, Šibenik, Dalmacija (part of Croatia-Hrvatska), Xiang Gang, Beijing. --Aradic-en 18:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Please... not another time :-(--Giovanni Giove 18:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes. I will just obey to your wishes --Anto

Anyway , what I wanted to say: The only reason why many people from eastern Adriatic coast are known by their Italian names is because their names were hard to pronounce to foreigners. NNames of the places as well:Krk , Hvar . that were hard for Italophones and the italian names were . And majority of west world knows lots of things under Italian names. But that really has no any connection. Xiang Gang will be always Xiang Gang. Never Hong Kong.--Anto 18:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The names Zara , Sebenico , Dalmazia were in use and are still in use. However, Zadar, Šibenik, Dalmacija are in use today and that fact is recognised when writing this biography.--Giorgio Orsini 17:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Only amoung italophones. As well in Croatia are used names Rim , Napulj , Trst for Rome , Naples and Trieste. --Anto

Oh my God :-(--Giovanni Giove 08:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

My edits

I have been on a year long wikibreak, and I can see that User:Giovanni Giove took total control of this article. I will now try to add information which he removed and will comment here on the stuff I changed.

Two most respectable Yugoslavian sources on Dalmatinac/Orsini are: Encyclopedia of Visual Arts by Yugoslav Lexicographical Institute and a monograph called "Juraj Dalmatinac" by Cvito Fisković. Reliability of this sources cannot be denied: Yugoslav Lexicographical Institute is respectable lexicographical institution, and Cvito Fisković is uttermost Yugoslav expert on Juraj Dalamatinac. I am not claiming that what those two sources say is absolute truth, what I'm claiming is: those sources cannot be ignored. Those are reliable, relevant and respectable sources. Although I do believe those sources should be fully trusted, I am aware that User:Giovanni Giove will not just accept those sources as better than his own. Sill, he has to accept them as relevant.

Now I will comment on every edit I make, so it can be perfectly clear what I'm doing and why:

  1. This man is called Juraj Dalmatinac in Croatia. This fact is not mentioned in the introduction or in the infobox. I think it should be mentioned. So I returned that mention back to the article.
  2. The way this man signed his name was "Georgius Mathaei Dalmaticus". He never signed himself by any other name, so I reckon this name should too be in the infobox.
  3. Caption says: "A modern bust in Zadar, where Orsini is introduced as 'Juraj Dalmatinac'". This gives "Orsini" greater credibility over "Dalmatinac" - which is disputed, so I will remove the second part of this note.
  4. Second chapter title is "Nationality" and the chapter discuses his name. I'm therefore changing chapter name to "Name".
  5. I added few sentences about his signatures that were removed from the article for some reason. The sentences are fully referenced.
  6. As is seen from the information on his signatures, he never referred to himself as "Orsini". Except for that, this article is not named "Giorgio Orsini". That is why I will now change his name from "Orsini" to "Dalmaticus" (as that is how he signed himself) on 2 instances that he is referenced as "Orsini".
  7. I haven't found any relevant sources claiming that Dalmaticus was Croat. I will therefore reformulate sentence "In Croatia, Dalmaticus is much celebrated as the Croat artist Juraj Dalmatinac." as "In Croatia, Dalmaticus is much celebrated under the name Juraj Dalmatinac."
  8. Added references to 2 schools in Croatia bearing his name
  9. Regarding sentence "Some Croatian authors have furthermore claimed that "Orsini" was never used by the artist and it was adopted by his son, shortly after the death of his father, so that he was a Croat with a Croat name." I quoted two respectable sources which claim that Dalmaticus' son took the surname almost half a century after his father's death. Again, I couldn't find claims about his nationality, so the reformulated sentence goes: "Croatian sources such as Yugoslav Lexicographical Institute and author Cvito Fisković claim that "Orsini" was never used by the artist and it was adopted by his son, after the death of his father."
  10. Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), "widely accepted English name" should be used. I am there fore replacing Italian names (Sebenico, Zara, Spalato) with widely accepted English names, those that are used on Wikipedia (Šibenik, Zadar, Split). I will leave them only in introduction for historical context.

There. Please refer to this notes if you decide to revert my edit. Thank you in advance, Dijxtra (talk) 18:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

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