Talk:Ginnel

North of England

Qumarchi, it seems unlikely to me that this Yorkshire dialect word is used in Australia or Devon, England. Can you supply some evidence?. Otherwise I'll delete the two images in the Gallery)[User:Rwood128|Rwood128]] (talk) 11:37, 16 November 2022 (UTC).Rwood128 (talk) 23:32, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Qumarchi, you seem confused (or maybe you have evidence of the use of the word "ginnel" beyond Yorkshie?) Rwood128 (talk) 00:14, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Is a separate article really needed? Why not merge with alley? Ginnel is just another dialect word for alley. Does each dialect term need an article? Rwood128 (talk) 00:16, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Rwood128, I am not confused. A ginnel is synonymous with a cut-through (what we call them here). They're walking paths etched between properties, and are an alleyway type (as this article says). The specific Yorkshire "ginnel" already has its own article. I believe this article should be more "international" and, therefore, we should change the name to a more basic and standard term for these alleyways: a "cut-through". You are right that the term "ginnel" is very local. But, many parts of the world feature "ginnels", such example was my image from my neighborhood. Different names, yes, but the same thing. Also, they're a distinctive alley type found in the world. They're not a local thing - Should we move this page to "cut-through"? Qumarchi (talk) 00:14, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

To add to this, we should read the description of these "alleyway" images that you removed: "...can be known as snickets, ginnels, jennels or alleyways." I am not sure why we are suddenly spree-deleting these because the uploader didn't include "ginnel" in the main title (even though he or she included the terms in the descriptions). The uploader of these images has been using the terms "snickets" and "ginnels" in their description boxes rather interchangeably. Besides, uploaders use synonymous terms so their images can be found easily, whether it be "alleyway" or "snicket", "footpath" or "walkway", "flat" or "apartment"...etc. Qumarchi (talk) 00:48, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes "alley" isn't the only word used to describe a narrow passage, or path between buildings, but it is far, far more common (and international) than "ginnel", or "cut-through. To call an alley in Devon, or Gloucestershire, England a ginnel is confusing and doesn't make sense. However, you should add something about "cut-through" to the main article, alley. "Many parts of the world" are not aware of the word ginnel though they may have narrow passage ways, or alleys that look like a ginnel. Perhaps you need to look more closely at the alley article? But maybe the problem is that the word alley is foreign to you? For example, for some North Americans the only type of alley that they know is a back lane, a service or access road behind houses. Rwood128 (talk) 01:38, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

No, "alley" is a common word here. But it is too broad and therefore we use more specific terms for different type of alleys. Yes, the term "ginnel" is too localised, even though they exist here and as well the US - I just took a photo of one in my own neighborhood (they're all over the place here). The description of a "ginnel" easily describes these "portal alleys" here in my city. But only the localised name "ginnel" is inappropriate. That's why I think "cut-through" is a more catch-all term. They are a distinct feature, different from back alleys that feature parking spots, or alleys that can be lanes (for driving), or alleys that feature shops (arcades). This is a "back lane" btw, found in my area, a very different type of alleyway than this one (which is a cut-through). I believe it's a good idea to change this article's name to "cut-through", or maybe "side alley" to focus on suburban alleyways. What do you think? ~ Qumarchi (talk) 02:21, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I have nothing more to say, other than I couldn't find "cut-through" (meaning alley or passage) on Google or in the OED; for me it indicates an unofficial short-cut, possibly involving trespass. Your editing history suggests that you may live in Australia. Rwood128 (talk) 11:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

The picture that you posted looks like a road (there even appears to be a narrow side walk). Here in Newfoundland we have back lane type alleys. There is one behind my house and several close by, I agree that they are quite different from, say a ginnel or similar narrow passage ways. Some here do have houses on them, however, there are restricted to local traffic. Though the one behind my house is unpaved and not ploughed in winter. I have been meaning to expand the discussion of back lanes in the alley article. Can you add something about "cut-throughs to the alley article, please - and where they are found. Rwood128 (talk) 11:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Correct. I live in Sydney, Australia. These cut-throughs, or shortcuts as you call them, are common in our suburbs. That picture was a lane behind a road rather (true, it may not be a bona fide alleyway). Unfortunately, I too cannot find sources/citations on "cut-throughs", but that's what we call them here. I will be happy to add content on "cut-throughs". But I do have a proposition – Isn't it better to expand this article where I add info about "cut-throughs"? Because, they're synonymous with ginnels and practically look like them. Only difference is the name. The alley article seems already cluttered and broad. Or, we can add something about cut-throughs there and have more information on them here? I can create a section/category for them in this article. What do you say? ~ Qumarchi (talk) 12:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Qumarchi but ginnel is just a North of England dialect word for alley, while I'm still not clear as exactly what a cut-through is. You cannot find any source for the word "cut-through", and it is not in The Macquarie Dictionary, which is a dictionary of Australian English, ed. Susan Butler (7th edition Macquarie Dictionary Publishers Pty Ltd 2017). To add anything on cut-throughs you need to provide a dictionary definition at the very least. I take a short cut to downtown here, using a series of alleys (called lanes): is that what the term "cut-through" means in Sydney, Australia? Rwood128 (talk) 15:34, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I know that it's a dialectal word. But what I meant was that our "cut-throughs" here look almost identical to the ginnels there, so we can might as well expand that article and mention them there. These alleys in the images, the most of them, looked like normal alleyways or lanes with residential/business doors on sides - We would call them "lanes" (e.g. Martin Lane), especially when you can drive them through them. Only this one looked like a cut-through/side alley that we have here. A cut-through that we see here is something like this. You're right that there isn't a source for the word. Probably because it's a colloquial word used in western Sydney (and perhaps in Melbourne too, not sure). ~ Qumarchi (talk) 23:02, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Australia

Why use the obscure word "ginnel", which presumably most Australians of never heard of. How are these alleys or lanes described by the local council or municepality? This addition, revised, should be moved to the main article. By the way, I think that the word "cut" is used in England for an alley. Rwood128 (talk) 11:01, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

A quick search suggests that the term "laneway" is the word used in Sydney for an alley, lane. passage. It looks like the Australian section of the alley article needs expanding. See also the detailed discussion of ginnel. I suggest that the ginnel article is redundant. Rwood128 (talk) 11:48, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

The Sydney laneays look nothing like a ginnel! Rwood128 (talk) 11:52, 18 November 2022 (UTC)