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Archive 1Archive 2


Older move discussion

This page should be moved to Giant Mountains. 1) Karkonosze is its Polish name derived from the Czech Krkonoše. 2) Most of the mountain range mass lies in Czechia. 3) Giant Mountains is neutral (from the Czech-Polish border-mountains-name-dispute point of view) and traditional English name. 4) Simple Google test: Karkonosze: 9,070, Krkonose: 25,100, Giant Mountains: 17,600 results. Qertis 11:12, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is there any Czech-Polish border dispute indeed ? Does Czechia plan to invade Poland or vice-versa ? ;-) Lysy 22:02, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Psssst. Its secret yet. Pavel Vozenilek 00:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There is a long-term dispute over the English names of geographical features crossing state boundaries like rivers, mountain ranges etc. For the reasons I mentioned above, Karkonosze is clearly the least suitable name for this page. It comes third after Krkonose and Giant Mountains so there are good reasons for move. Qertis 08:15, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, in googlewar karkonosze wins against krkonose by over 30,000 hits. And "karkonosze" vs "giant mountains" wins by over 180,000 hits. How did you get your google results ? Lysy 07:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, its not very difficult. Since this is English Wikipedia, just eliminate non-English pages, and here you go. Qertis 08:15, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't know. How about "Krkonoše" then ? (BTW: what does this name mean in Czech language ?) Lysy 09:43, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1)Krkonoše with hacek is not very much English either and I am not sure about Polish attitude towards the "Czech" English name of the Czech-Polish mountains. I found Giant Mountains fairly acceptable for both sides, not harming anyone. 2) I have found here that it is named after Celtic tribe. Qertis 10:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that many Poles would fight against Krkonoše (I'm Polish and would not mind). Maybe you're right about the hacek, although "Giant mountains" sounds very artificial (and quite commercial) to me. I've found the other old names of these mountains being "Korkntoi" or alternatively "Montes Niviferi", and "Schneegebirgen". Anyway, I would prefer the original name of "Krkonose" or "Karkonosze" as I believe "Giant mountains" can be quite confusing and don't think many people know this name, even if it sounds nice in English. I'd leave "Giant mountains" as a redirect in case someone encounters it. Lysy 10:46, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Giant Mountains" comes evidently from Riesengebirge and it is quite old and well settled in English; many Czech resorts use this name besides "Krkonoše". Witnessing neverending edit-wars between Polish and German wikipedians on naming issues, I am afraid "Krkonoše" would be for many Poles hard to swallow,....just like "Karkonosze" is for me ;). Qertis 11:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OK, let's wait a couple of days and see. I don't think there would be any signifant Polish/Czech edit wars, as luckily there's much less nationalism in Czech and Polish relationships. Lysy 12:09, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think this should be "Giant Mountains" - if a geographical name has a valid English translation, then we should prefer it. I'm on the road right now, but I have a printed encyclopedia of the world's mountains, can check it tomorrow. Stan 12:54, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please do check it out. Lysy
Alas, no part of the Sudetes is mentioned there under any name - Erzgebirge on one side, Carpathians on the other, blank space in between. Stan 22:46, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)


If we cannot confirm that the name "Giant mountains" is widely used outside Czech Republic, I'd rather keep the article as it is. Lysy 18:44, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it's just my ignorance, but I have to admit that I've neber-ever heard the name, neither in English nor in any of the Slavic languages (Polish and Czech included, I speak both). And, frankly speaking, it seems to be out of use nowadays (except for Brittanica, as always :( ). Of course it's neutral, just like any unused term would be, but it might also be misleading. Should we really change the used term (be it Polish or Czech name) to some unused term? Is there really a dispute here? Halibutt 22:13, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

BTW, if we use the Google as a test for current usage, then you might want to take a look at these searches: [1], [2]. It seems that the term "Giant Mountains" is beaten 4:1... Halibutt 22:15, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

And these searches: [3], [4] show that "Karkonosze" is beaten 4:1 as well and the winner is "Krkonose"/"Krkonoše". So I am either for this or for the "Giant Mountains" golden mean. (see my initial proposal on the top) Qertis 07:47, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vote

Right, this discussion has gone on long enough without a structure to the vote. Please add your vote (or title suggestion) below.

Karkonosze

  1. violet/riga (t) 16:45, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  2. Lysy 13:55, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Giant Mountains

  1. Qertis 07:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I thought voting was extended until April 16th and is over now ? What is the new deadline ? Lysy 16:55, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


Is this really question for voting? What about looking into few online/printed maps, travel guides to find the most used English name? I do not count Google as much relevant. Pavel Vozenilek 20:39, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Right, there has been no consensus for a move so it remains here. violet/riga (t) 16:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't see the point in this discussion. The Google results speak a clear language here - on English language pages (anything else is irrelevant), there are
As nobody here will argue for the German name, that leaves us with 54% for Krkonoše, 30% for Giant Mountains and 17% for Karkonosze (percentages don't add up to 100 due to rounding). Quite obviously there is not much room nor necessity for any discussion or vote. I still think that there is a good case for Giant Mountains - it is not "artificial", but simply a quite rarely used name for a quite rarely heard-of region, whereas Krkonoše is utterly unpronouncable for the overwhelming majority of native speakers of English. Absolutely no reasonable case, however, can be made for the Polish version. --Thorsten1 16:42, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have looked in the "Hammond Citation World Atlas" (2000) and in Paul Robert Magocsi's "Historical Atlas of Central Europe: Revised and Expanded Edition" (2002) and neither have this mountain range even listed. The greatest depth that they go into is splitting Czechia's mountains into the Bohemian Forest, the Erzgebirge, and the Sudetens (all English/German terms). In the interests of consensus I support Giant Mountains. Olessi 15:43, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Britannica uses term Giant Mountains [5]. Pavel Vozenilek 07:07, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Columbia encyclopedia uses Krkonose [6], Encarta mentions it too in [7]. Pavel Vozenilek 07:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

The correct English name is Giant Mountains (mentioned both in the biggest and best general scientific German-English and in the best scientific Czech-English German dictionary). Riesen Gebirge and Riesengebirge are also possible. Juro 05:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Coming in on this a bit late - the Times Atlas of the World uses Krkonoše, but I'd support keeping at Karkonosze as that doesn't require any hard-to-type špecial characterš. Definitely not 'giant mountains' as that's meaningless, it could refer to any large mountains. - MPF 14:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus.

Karkonosze→ Giant Mountains– "Giant Mountains" is the traditional name for the mountain range in English, while "Karkonosze" is the Polish name (compare "Krkonoše" for the Czech part of the mountain range). Olessi 17:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support - use the English name. FairHair 22:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support as originator. Olessi 17:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support if there is a common English name, then we should use the common English name Jay32183 17:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose and suggest approval vote. I prefer Riesengebirge, despite it being politically incorrect; it is the English name. Septentrionalis 18:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
    Feel free to proceed as such. Olessi 15:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose "giant mountains" doesn't mean anything; it isn't a common name for this particular range (I'd never seen it used before reading this wiki page), and as a general term it is often used for a multitude of other large mountains all over the world (The Himalaya are giant mountains, admit it!). Older atlasses mostly have Riesengebirge, while modern atlasses mostly use Krkonoše. However, as I'd already mentioned earlier, the Polish spelling Karkonosze currently used does have the big advantage of not needing any hard-to-type špecial characterš (the only way I can insert an 'š' with my keyboard is to copy and paste one that has already been inserted by someone else). - MPF 09:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
    Could you list which atlases of yours use Krkonoše? Olessi 15:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
To hand just now, the Times Atlas of the World (easily the premier UK-produced atlas); Google Earth uses 'Krkonos', but not very prominently - MPF 01:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Here are some Google results:

  1. Giant Mountains: 1790
  • At least 6 of the top 30 hits are referring to 'giant mountains' in a general sense, not to the Karkonosze at all - MPF 09:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
  • A couple of examples from these results:
"hikers can trek as far as the feet of these giant mountains"
"how others may react in the face of the giant mountains of our planet"
"sun rising over the giant mountains must have presented to early men the only vitalising force"
"giant mountains of water rolled under the pirogue"
"dwarfing the vast conclave of giant mountains round it"
From a random results page, not hand picked. Many more can be easily found. --Lysytalk 15:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
  1. Karkonosze: 729
  2. Krkonoše: 548
  3. Krkonose: 529

Olessi 17:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

  1. Riesengebirge 5500; despite the first two, most of these are English. Septentrionalis 18:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
It seemed to me that many of these English links using "Riesengebirge" are older works or text referencing Caspar David Friedrich's painting. It inedeed might be useful to use an approval poll which lists which publications use which terminology. Olessi 15:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I would like to point out that Riesengebirge is German. It is not the English name, but I cannot confirm or deny the comment about how frequently it is used in English sources. Jay32183 00:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I already commented on this more than a year ago (see above). At the time, "Krkonoše" was used much more on English-language pages than "Giant Mountains". (Riesengebirge 8,680 hits, Karkonosze 13,700; Giant Mountains 23,900; Krkonoše 43,300). I still favour Krkonoše, but if there is no consensus for a move, I'll vote for Giant Mountains instead. I agree with MPF that this is not a very common name, but this is s mainly down to the fact that English-language media tend to use the more comprehensive term "Sudetes" when reporting about the region (which they do rarely enough). Also, there is a clear difference between "giant mountains" (can refer to the Himalaya) and "Giant Mountains" (cannot refer to the Himalaya). Britannica uses "Giant Mountains", by the way ("Giant Mountains, Czech Krkonose [sic], German RIESENGEBIRGE [sic], Polish Karkonosze, mountains, major segment of the Sudeten in northeastern Bohemia and part of the western Czech-Polish frontier"). It's true that most users won't find the š on their keyboard, but this can hardly be a valid argument for using a name which is otherwise not justified. Especially not when this problem can easily be solved with a redirect from Karkonosze (which, of course, should exist regardless of any keyboard issues, as the Polish part of the mountains is smaller, but not insignificant).--Thorsten1 17:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Idea for a solution: Luckily we have well know terms for one mountain range in four different languages. Instead of discussing which term might be superior (google entries, length of use in history or else), easily use the lingual term of the language your are writting the article in. That means: Czech-speaking article - use Krkonose, Polish-sepaking article - use Krakonsze, English-speaking article - use Giant Mountains, German-speaking article - use Riesengebirge. And finally: and to all articles in different languages, that there are other lingual terms. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.204.141.117 (talk) 05:58, 30 July 2006

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move Request

It was requested that this article be renamed but the procedure outlined at WP:RM#Steps for requesting a controversial page move did not appear to be followed, and consensus could not be determined. Please request a move again with proper procedure if there is still a desire for the page to be moved. Thank you for your time! -- tariqabjotu 20:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Meep, didn't see the move requests already. In any case, the move proposed in the previous poll wasn't what I had in mind, so here is the new vote:

Karkonosze → Giant Mountains or Krkonoše (indicate which of the three you prefer and why) The mountain range lies mostly in Czechia, so using a Polish name is not fully appropriate I believe.

The Survey

Add your support to appropriate versions, followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with four tildes (~~~~). Please take note of the conditional votes if this vote is being closed.

Karkonosze

  1. Support. --Lysytalk 18:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  2. Conditional: In order of preference: Giant Mountains (used by Britannica), Krkonoše (used by Columbia), Karkonosze. Olessi 20:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC) (I assume that if the first fails, he effectively casts his vote for the second, etc. +Hexagon1 (t) 01:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC))
  3. because of Karkonosze National Park. FairHair 18:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  4. Conditional: If the the poll does not approve Krkonoše, I would prefer Karkonosze to the Giant Mountains per the reasons stated below and the google statistics. Tankred 01:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
  5. Support Karkonosze as 1st choice. Then Krkonoše for second choice, Riesengebirge for third, and totally reject "giant mountains" as rather meaningless - MPF 23:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Krkonoše

  1. Krkonoše, traditional Czech name used in most atlases and guides. Giant Mountains sounds artificial, but still better then the Polish term. +Hexagon1 (t) 07:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support. --Lysytalk 21:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
    Krkonoše It looks like this is the name used in most English sources (according to the Google fight anyway), and since this is English Wikipedia, I say go with it. Jay32183 20:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC) I'm going to change to abstaining for lack of information on my part, but will support to whatever turns out to be the most common name used in English. Jay32183 04:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  3. Conditional: In order of preference: Giant Mountains (used by Britannica), Krkonoše (used by Columbia), Karkonosze. Olessi 20:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC) (I assume that if the first fails, he effectively casts his vote for the second, etc. +Hexagon1 (t) 01:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC))
  4. Krkonoše because this official name is more frequently used than the second official name Karkonosze. I oppose the generic and incorrect translation "Giant Mountains", which is far from being widely accepted in English. Tankred 23:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Krknonose

Giant Mountains

  1. Conditional: In order of preference: Giant Mountains (used by Britannica), Krkonoše (used by Columbia), Karkonosze. Olessi 20:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC) (I assume that if the first fails, he effectively casts his vote for the second, etc. +Hexagon1 (t) 01:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC))
  2. Giant Mountains Juro 04:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC) (this is the correct English name used by the best dictionaries and texts) Juro 04:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  3. Giant Mountains per above. --VinceB 17:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  4. Giant Mountains since the google search demonstrates there is no super majority the clearly English term should be used. Jay32183 04:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
    That's illogical, why not call a cedilla a "hooky thing bellow" then. Just because it sounds English-y doesn't mean it's correct. +Hexagon1 (t) 06:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
    According to all three searches the names are essentially on equal footing. Therefore according to "Use English" the English name should be used. Giant Mountains is the only term of English origin, and your analogy isn't on the same ground. Comparing "cedilla" to "hooky thing bellow" should give you a supermajority. Jay32183 06:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
    Giant Mountains have the least number of references (books and websites) according to the google count. Tankred 07:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
    Exactly. Googlebooks shows "Giant Mountains" has a superminority (9 books vs 23 for Krkonoše and 56 for Karkonosze). --Lysytalk 08:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
  5. If an English name exists, arguing over whether to use the Polish or Czech name is unneccessary. Jonathunder 16:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
    If it existed, but so far it's only a mistranslated German name, used in touristic pamphlets, while almost all English language literature uses either Krkonoše or Karkonosze. Next we will be renaming Śnieżka into "Snowy Mountain". --Lysytalk 17:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
  6. Giant Mountains, strong support. Use Giant Mountains to get over this tit-for-tat argumentation from either Polish or Czech side. Include Krkonoše, Karkonosze and Riesengebirge for reference in the opening section of the article. MikeZ 08:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Riesengebirge

Krkonoše-Karkonosze

  1. Support. It works fine for Śnieżka, why not here then ? --Lysytalk 08:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The Discussion

Oppose. New move request is premature. Give it a break. --Lysytalk 07:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Add any additional comments
A googlefight on English-speaking pages resulted in the following as of 6:42, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC):
+Hexagon1 (t) 07:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


But, a year later, as of 21:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC) it says:
--Lysytalk 21:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
To respond to the worry that "Giant Mountains" is an ambiguous term, the first five pages (at least) of hits in Google are all for this mountain range. Olessi 22:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I got 131,000 English pages for "Krkonoše", 144,000 English pages for "Giant mountains" and 73,800 English pages for "Karkonosze". Even though the "first five" results for Giant Mountains refer to the mountain range, I have no doubts a significant number, however, do not. +Hexagon1 (t) 05:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The difference in the search results is "Krkonoše " compared to "Krkonoše" (note the space). I pointed out that the first five pages of search hits for "Giant Mountains" are unambiguously about this mountain range, not that the first five results were about it. Olessi 06:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Fewer then half are about the mountain range and use the term exclusively (as opposed to "133 Premieres – The Krkonoše (Giant Mountains)" or "Karkonosze (Giant) Mountains - Holiday Poland" for example), and most of those use "Giant Mountains" as a marketing thing, rather then an accurate name for the range. +Hexagon1 (t) 00:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It might be important to note that one of those first five is this Wikipedia article. Jay32183 06:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I just came across this discussion; Riesengebirge has over one million hits on google: [8] Riesengebirge=translation to English Giants Mountain. Labbas 9 November 2006

Oh well, if you want to count it that way then Karkonosze has 2 million hits (without inflection variants). ;-) --Lysytalk 18:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
With a qualifier of only searching in the English language, "Riesengebirge" is dropped to 39,100. Olessi 18:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

And here are interesting results from googlebooks ;-)

--Lysytalk 18:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The search results seem to vary sometimes; I wonder what algorithms Google uses... Searching today gives me:

--Olessi 21:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

To avoid false results for Giant Mountains, I counted only the sources with any variant of the highest mountain in Krkonose: google.books.com

google.com

Tankred 23:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Total Google results often differ from the results given on the first search page. Compare the following to your previous search:
Olessi 22:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Of course, Google searches also depend on the criteria you use to search with. Inspired by Tankred's parameters, I ran these searches with "NAME" Poland OR Czech. The results also seem to vary upon reloading the page, jumping from a high number of hits, to a low number, to zero results, back to the high number again. Perplexing....
Many of the Krkonoše/Krkonose results seem to be duplicate hits. Olessi 22:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Here (corrected "Krkonoše"):

"Karkonosze" wins in all categories. --Lysytalk 00:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


Because this mountain range is not frequently referred to in English, there is no "common" English name for the region (compared to the Alps or Carpathians). Should the article be at Krkonoše because most of the mountains are in the Czech Republic? Should it be at Karkonosze because it can give more Google hits? In situations like this where there is no overwhelming preference for one name over others, Google comparisons seem to me to be running in circles (exemplified by my tests above). I personally prefer Giant Mountains because (in no particular order) it:

Riesengebirge translation should be Giants Mountain

Note about meaning of name: The English translation to Giant Mountains is somewhat incorrect, because the ancient name Riesengebirge should have in earlier times rather have been translated as Giants Mountain or Mountain of the Giants, because the Riesen in this case means plural: giants- who live on top of- or in the mountains. This is old Germanic folklore. It does not mean that the mountains are huge- Riesen- gigantic. There are many old German folklore stories about the Riesen- giants as well as songs Labbas 9 November 2006

Indeed. Thanks for explaining that - maybe this information should be included in the article itself ? --Lysytalk 20:30, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

-that would be ok with me- Labbas 9 November 2006

Done. --Lysytalk 00:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
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