Talk:Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai

General

Some of the songs in the film is also in the Ghost Dog:The Way Of The Samurai(Japanese Version) "FAST SHADOW" & "SAMURAI SHOWDOWN" by the RZA & Wu-Tang Clan are in the movie besides the good shit in the soundtrack --68.220.235.196 20:46, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)King--68.220.235.196 20:46, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the book referenced as a guide to Bushido ("the way of the Samurai") is by no means the only one on the subject, and, if I recall correctly, it doesn't meantion that (or any) specific translation. I personally own another one, and I don't really see why Wikipedia should be in the business of endorsing one over another. On the other hand, I'm not sure what it should link to if not a specific book - perhaps it should be excised completely and simply link to the Bushido article? aubrey 06:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

--

I found the similarity between the following passage and the plot to Ghost Dog to be striking. I was wondering if anyone knew if there is a connection:

"Say there is this old gentleman living in modern times, a scholar, a man who is facinated by the early days of the samurai and the Code of Bushido. Say that he identifies so strongly with these ideals that one day he loses his senses and comes to believe that he is an old-time samurai. He dons some ill-fitting armor he had collected, takes up his katana, goes forth to change the world. Ultimately, he is destroyed by it, but he holds to the Code. That quality of dedication sets him apart and ennobles him, for all of his ludicrousness."

Exerpt from: 24 Views of Mt. Fugi, By Hokusai

Author: Roger Zelazny

   See also: Don Quixote

Itchy and Scratchy

Is it just me, or did Vargo's daughter watch Itchy and Scratchy in the final scene? (The fictional cartoon watched in the simpsons' universe) OzOz 12:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

She did. Any in-depth analysis of the film would likely point this out and dwell on its significance, but I'm not sure it merits mention in the film's Wikipedia entry.

New additions

I just performed a major edit to cleanup some of the plot, rearrange the layout a bit, and add material to the trivia and theme sections, including analysis of the cartoons mentioned above. Cybertooth85 19:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it Itchy and Scratchy? I remember a famous TEX AVERY 'cat + mouse' cartoon where the guns get bigger and bigger and bigger ... until they straddle the globe and ... ka booooom. It was made during Cold War era and was (I guess) a kind of Nuclear Proliferation allegory, as well as hlarious. Knowing how multi referential The Simpsons is, even if it is Itchy & Scratchy, I'd bet the makers werent unaware of the Avery precedent. (You could do a whole entry, after all, about cartoon 'inter-referentiality' in The Simpsons.) Also, all the other cartoon clips in Ghost Dog are from the 'classic' EARLY era of cartoons, rather than the present day - which fits in with the films theme (as voiced by Ghost Dog himself in his pen-ultimate speech) about sometimes sticking to the "Old School ways" even if/when they are dying out. (This same speech, co incidentally, is sampled on the new BURIAL alubm, in the UK - one of the hottest albums of the summer from the new trendy 'dub step' movement.) We frequently see the Mafia guys staring at the cartoons as if they are pop culture versions of Hagakure - old texts with truths to tell. (The ascension of the daughter is in fact signalled, I think, by her watching cartoon in car at the end...? In which case, of course, Itchy and Scracthy would make sense, because that is HER era, as opposed to the old dinosaur Maf guys ...)

Alternative thesis: I remember a Bill Hicks routine in which he sez American foreign policy is like a Shane type Western - in which the US first SELLS smaller foreign countries billions of dollars of ARMS, and then dares the country to use them - and then acts with OUTRAGE when they do ... allowing them to intervene and stomp on the smaller satellite country, thinking it will be a doddle. Which it never is. Ever. (I.P.) (Substitue Mao's little Red book, or the Koran, for Ghost Dog's copy of Hagakure, and you get the picture...)

Excellent article

This article is a fantastic read. It's full of information and insight while remaining succinct. Massive thanks to those involved, it's fitting that an article for a film so good and yet so little-known would match it. Chris Cunningham 12:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Yes, very nice read. I always come to wikipedia to read about a film ive just watched and im almost never dissapointed.

It was itchy and scratchy at the end with the guns getting bigger and bigger, i cant think of any relevance to the film it has. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.24.131 (talk • contribs) 29 August 2006

Harrison Ford theory

In the Trivia section, one item seems like it may be a personal interpretation: "When Ghost Dog introduces himself to the mafia guards at the mansion, he says his name is "Bob Solo," a combination of two Harrison Ford characters, Bob Falfa (from American Graffiti) and Han Solo (from Star Wars)." Is this just original research, or has this been previously published somewhere? --Ds13 20:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

"Solo" means alone. Ghost Dog is a real loner, although not a sullen, resentful one. his only friends are a small child and an ice cream truck driver with whom he shares no common language, although the two do play chess.

Bob is a very common name, of course.

Han Solo is not a loner, after all, since he and Chewbacca do seem to be real friends. And Chewbacca understands English, and Solo understands Wookiese or whatever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.46.112 (talk) 08:01, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Article assessment

I've assessed the article as Start class. Though nicely written, these are some reasons which prevent the article from getting a higher assessment:

• it missess some important sections
  • no Reception (critical and box-office)
  • no Production/Background
• unreferenced - no citations whatsoever, which is extremely serious; this makes especially the themes area vulnerable to WP:NOR
• the Themes section should be extended (with citations); it also mixes themes with artistic devices
• the info in Trivia should be incorporated in prose - see Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Style guidelines
• Literature referenced in the film, though interesting, is basically a section stub

IMO, still some way to go AdamSmithee 20:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I addressed the lack of Reception and added it, as a stub but anyway. It also includes references. I suppose the Literature referenced in the film could be merged under the newly created References header, using the {{cite book}} template? --ZeroOne 23:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

References should contain references for info about the film. Literature referenced in the film, as I understand it, is about books that the film itself touches upon, which is different. So, IMO they shouldn't be merged AdamSmithee 00:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Most recent edit

A lot of wording changes in the last edit and there are quite a few I really don't think make the article better. Starting paragraphs with a pronoun is an obvious no-no, for instance. Reverting would be a bit harsh, but some of that really should go back. Chris Cunningham 18:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Plot outline

The plot outline seems very POV at times - as do many in wikipedia, for some reason. Is this some sort of standard set down somewhere? Or does just somebody with way too much time on their hands and a pretty poor understanding of cinematography go about writing way too detailed (this is an encyclopedia, afterall) plotlines, which are frequently also very personally biased? For instance, in this particular movie, there is no reason to believe Louie would kill Ghost Dog out of some absurd loyalty for his masters. He is portrayed as way too weak and cowardly to even think about something like that. My personal view would be, he'd be running away as fast as he could, if he wasn't forced at gunpoint to take out GD. But I wouldn't put this stuff into an article, because I know this is my view of the situation and therefore POV, unlike whoever is writing these plotlines.

Also, is there any particular reason for a link to a site in Polish? This movie has nothing to do with Poland, neither are resources on the net so scarce that a sufficiently good site in English couldn't be found. A Polish link helps in no way, and should be restricted to the Polish version of the article. I mean, WTF? 213.172.254.80 01:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Jersey City?

Is it just me, or didn't this movie take pains to not take place anywhere? I mean, it's obviously New York, but in the way that "Gotham" or "Metropolis" are New York. No place names are ever mentioned and (it's been quite a few years since I've seen it) I'm pretty sure all the license plates on the cars were fictional. JesseRafe 20:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

about 2,190,000 Google results seem to disagree. It was largely shot in Jersey City, and people have New Jersey accents. I've changed the tag to citeneeded to indicate that it's in need of evidence but not actually factually disputed. Chris Cunningham 00:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it obviously has to be shot somewhere, but the location of the shooting and the setting of the movie are different things. Look how many movies are set in New York, but have the picturesque Rocky Mountains of Vancouver in the background. Same goes for the speaking, which isn't so coincidental as controllable, but I think Jarmusch just wanted them speaking in prototypical inner-city accents, and it was more of a Brooklyn accent anyway. If you own the movie (which I don't) I suggest watching it again and look for the scenes with cars clearly in view (such as the bear hunters or Ghost Dog rolling into the estate). I remember it being fictious license plates, but I can't recall what it was exactly. If it is a fictional state license plate, then I posit that it exists in a non-state, and a non-city, and therefore, not Jersey City. JesseRafe 02:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

There was one license plate, the one that Ghost Dog switched from a picnicking family's station wagon onto his stolen Mercedes that said "The Highway State". I didn't catch the slogan on the white car tags from Ghost Dog's home state. It was clear to me that the movie was not set in any specific city. Yes, Jersey City was a location, but it wasn't the setting. Also, I am surprised this article does not mention the connection to Le Samouraï. The homage is quite clear in the way Ghost Dog has a "key" for any luxury car, similar to the way Alain Delon's character literally had a big ring of keys that would allow him to drive just about any Citroen DS he encountered. Of course, Le Samouraï's influence on Ghost Dog isn't mentioned in that film's article either. A bit of digging might turn up a reputable web reference or book ISBN to make this connection. -Wisekwai 15:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. You know, you can add the references yourself in a trivia section, if you can't find any sources. I'm going to remove the Jersey City in the article. JesseRafe 17:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll track down a reference and add in a bit about Le Samourai. -02:23, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The white plates say The Industrial State. —Tamfang (talk) 17:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

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some questions?

• To me it hasn#t be occured, that ghost dog had been payed by the mafia. This so called employe seems to live in a space of oeconomic indipendence. This laconic film somehow works on thriller coordinates but isn't aye.

I suggest reading Robert Ebert's review of the movie. In summary the movie doesn't make sense until you take the assumption that Ghost Dog is just insane or not entirely connected to reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.97.110.51 (talk) 23:40, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

It#s a little strange to call this story an action samurai film. Relation to the philosophy of samurais are visible and action takes place. So it's a Jarmush, nothing else.--88.77.190.70 (talk) 11:38, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I was going to say that it's strange (wrong)to call Ghost Dog an "action samurai film", but it's already been said. So why has it not been changed?79.78.107.7 (talk) 00:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Samurai action film?

Seriously? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.37.250.170 (talk) 12:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

La Samurai?

i've seen Ghost Dog three times. i finally watch La Samurai. okay, the character in La Samurai's apartment is Spartan, other than his bird. Whitaker's character keep pigeons. both are hired hitmen, and both steal cars that they use when they work. however, otherwise, there simply are few real similarities or parallels that i noticed. i don't see Ghost Dog as an "homage" to La Samurai. doubtless La Samurai played a part in inspiring, but Ghost Dog stands on its own.

La Samurai is good, but Ghost Dog is better, richer, whatever, more interesting. unless you think that French classics have to be better than our own, American cinema. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.46.112 (talk) 07:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Haitian?

Haitian tailors are mentioned in conversation by Dog and Raymond, but what's the evidence that Raymond himself is Haitian (rather than Ivorian like the actor, and like his character in Night on Earth)? A real non-elite Haitian would speak Kreyòl Ayisyen, which I don't understand, rather than Standard French, of which I understood nearly every word. —Tamfang (talk) 18:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Good point. It's been a while since I've seen it, and you're very right about not only de Bankole's language but also his accent not being Haitian. Both the IMDb review and a random entry in the trivia section, as well as Roger Ebert's review list his character as Haitian. No idea where that came from. Also found that a philosophy professor identified him as such too. And this and this seem to be only other two references that aren't mirrored or copied but in the middle of an original composition for what it's worth. JesseRafe (talk) 05:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh please Tamfang, as if standard French isn't spoken in Haiti. Accent-wise there may be a point here. Savvyjack23 (talk) 05:53, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Savvyjack23 is correct. French isn't completely unheard among normal Haitians; those who are active in the national life (business, government, education, medicine, the Church, etc) are typically able to communicate in French. Some are even raised in it. More to the point: there are a few references to Haiti in relation to Raymond, and to my best recall, not a single one to Africa. In the end I think it's just "Ghost Dog" surrealism: a black immigrant who speaks only French -- good, clear French let me add, unlike what you'd expect from your typical Frenchman or Canadian -- despite apparently being the US for some time and operating an American business whose customers seem to come solely from outside his uncertain ethnic community. (How does he work with suppliers, city permitters, and the IRS, to say nothing of his clientele?) Laodah 01:22, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Removed "Haitian", as all the sources I found above (3.5 years ago) were just published inferences and their own OR, nothing official from Jarmusch (I'll ask him next time I see him, but that wouldn't be admissible either), so let's just reduce it to it's most basic form. He speaks French. Anything else is conjecture. I wager many called him Haitian because until recently most black people in the US who spoke French would've been Haitian in many people's anecdotal experience. Other French Caribbeans and black people from France were not as common in the US, and Francophone Africans were not yet commonplace as they started to become in the 90s (at least in the East Coast). Don't think it was anything insidious on the part of anyone above or any of the authors linked. JesseRafe (talk) 14:40, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

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Just watched it

Every time somebody seems to be watching the tv in various scences. It is very old cartoons they are watching from the 1920's and 1930's, Betty Boop and some cat in black and white. Right through the film. It must be some kind of some symbolism, but don't know understand it. scope_creep^Talk 01:39, 27 March 2019 (UTC)