Talk:Ghosal

Some of this news needs to change

The Ghoshal title belongs not only to the Brahmins but also to the Namasudra..My surname is Ghosal But I am Namasudra.My forefathers are all Namasudras 103.80.172.46 (talk) 17:30, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

CharlesWain wrote "appropriation by various communities" . What does that even mean? And who is 'Bhowmick'?

I would like to have a logical discussion about this issue. If needed I will post whatever source is necessary to prove that Ghoshal is only used by Brahmins. In case it is not known to Wikipedia editors, there are 5 basic Rarhi Kulin surnames - Mukherjee(Bharadwaj),Banerjee(Shandilya),Chatterjee(Kashyap),Ghoshal(Vats),Ganguly(Savarna). Bhattacharjee is NOT Rarhi Kulin Brahmin it is merely a tite, with Bhatta meaning 'priest' and acharya meaning teacher.. They do not have a fixed gotra. Just because the anglicization is Bhattacharjee it does not mean that it is related to Mukherjee,Chatterjee or Banerjee. Please use valid sources for these kinds of things . Valid sources should be written by authoritative people - academic historians,ethnologists, maybe Bengali Brahmins themselves. Justaghost4 (talk) 15:03, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Justaghost4, Please check Basu p85-86 and Bhaumik Div.D p8. Though Ghoshal is primarily a Rarhi Brahmin surname, it is occasionally found among few other communities. Don't engage in edit warring, and check the sources first. Thanks. CharlesWain (talk) 16:02, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I agree with your point that Bhattacharya isn't a Kulin Brahmin surname, Ghoshal is. If you have a good scholarly source,we can add it here. CharlesWain (talk) 16:12, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Ghoshal is Rarhi Brahmin, not Varendra!

My sources:

1.https://archive.org/details/marriagerankinbengalicultueahistoryofcasteclaninmiddleperiodofbengalronaldindenb._202003_239_N/page/39/mode/2up Marriage and Rank in Bengali Culture(1976) Ronald Inden, indologist, UC Berkeley. He bases this table on his study of the Kulaji, Kulagranthas. Inden is Professor Emeritus of South Asian History at Berkeley

2.https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Against_High_Caste_Polygamy/SynFEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ghoshal+kulin+brahmin&pg=PA59&printsec=frontcover

This is Against High Caste Polygamy by Isvar Chandra Vidyasagar, who I hope you will acknowledge as a reliable source. See who are the Rarhi Kulin Brahmins.

3. https://archive.org/details/hinducastesands00bhatgoog/page/n62/mode/2up

Jogendranath Bhattacharya, erstwhile president of the Bengali Brahmin Sabha and Brahmin Pandit listing the well known Rarhi Brahmin surnames.

4. I have several other sources that I will present tomorrow. Happy to have a discussion with you.

We can't let just about anything be used as a source. We have to reach consensus on what can be considered reliable and what cannot be considered reliable. Justaghost4 (talk) 16:35, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Ghoshal is Rarhi Brahmin. Our article is also mentioning so. I will add the Kulin part. But we can't remove "primarily" from the second line, the surname has been adopted by few communities.CharlesWain (talk) 17:15, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

I have even more sources for Ghoshal being Rarhi Kulin Brahmin:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.355878/page/n153/mode/2up?view=theater

Nagendranath Basu, Vanger Jatiya Itihas - open the link and see the second page (first paragraph)

Secondly, that Ghoshal is used by other communities is only mentioned in your somewhat obscure source. Besides, your source has no reference to the fact that it is used by other communites, no citation etc... just a direct mention. No other source mentions this. How is the writer of the source an expert on Bengali surnames? Can you provide other scholarly evidence which touches this fact?

I have extensively read Sudhir Kumar Chatterjee's linguistic study of Bengali surnames. https://ia802909.us.archive.org/35/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.32084/2015.32084.Indian-Linguistics--Vol-7-Part-1.pdf These offer an origin on the names of Rarhi Brahmin gamis. You will find plenty of information on page 44. It provides citations like the Chandimangal,Kulajis, etc, unlike your source which provides no sources.

It is very likely that the author of your source is confusing Ghoshal with Ghosh, which is used by more than one community. How is it that no other modern/old source mentions this fact other than your source.

Don't you think that the onus is on you to establish the reliability of the source. Shouldn't we reach consensus first?

PLEASE READ THE GLARING ERRORS IN YOUR SOURCE:

Also your source by Bhaumik does the same kind of thing for Banerjee,Gnaguly and Chatterjee.https://archive.org/details/padabir-utpotti-o-kromobikash-by-khagendranath-bhowmik/page/20/mode/2up This is your source which mentions several other communities - non Brahmin under Banerjee.

https://archive.org/details/padabir-utpotti-o-kromobikash-by-khagendranath-bhowmik/page/n133/mode/2up

Here the same is done for Chatterjee . It even mentions Chattopadhay is different from Chatterjee.

https://archive.org/details/padabir-utpotti-o-kromobikash-by-khagendranath-bhowmik/page/n131/mode/2up

Same is done for Mukherjee:

https://archive.org/details/padabir-utpotti-o-kromobikash-by-khagendranath-bhowmik/page/26/mode/2up

You can even search for other surnames like Ganguly,Bhattacharjee and Chakraborty in your source on Internet archive or other places. You will find the same kind of information ,that is they are not restricted to Brahmin surnames.

So, according to your source, each of these surnames can be used by several communities. So why don't you go to these other surname's wiki pages and make the appropriate changes. Why only target this page?

Thank you. I hope we settle this debate through logic and a common desire for objective truth. Justaghost4 (talk) 06:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

No one is confusing Ghosh with Ghoshal. Please check Basu page 29 for origin of these two surnames.

You may check Bagchi surname article and its talk page for better understanding of this issue. Thanks.CharlesWain (talk) 07:47, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

You do not clarify how your Bhaumik source mentions that Banerjee,Chatterjee etc are also used by many non brahmin communities. You clearly did not look at the links posted in the bottom half of my answer. This alone should discredit your source. you also did not answer queries about the reliability of your source(s). Also, what makes Basu an authority on the subject? It is not a scholarly work and does NOT provide references/citations to the facts therein.Justaghost4 (talk) 08:36, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Justaghost4, Both Basu and Bhaumik have mentioned list of sources or gave references at the end of the books. Most of your sources can't be used here since they're from Raj era. I agree with you that Ghoshal is a Rarhi Brahmin surname,and our article also mentioned about this community only. I am not finding anything contentious in the article; what are you disputing and debating about so much??!

I will suggest you to read from page 6 to 15 from Bhaumik for more understanding. Thanks. CharlesWain (talk) 09:20, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't want more understanding. I just need to understand what I don't understand.

https://archive.org/details/padabir-utpotti-o-kromobikash-by-khagendranath-bhowmik/page/n133/mode/2up

Why for one does this mention that Banerjee has been used by communities other than Brahmin.

My point is that why target Ghoshal and Bagchi when Bhaumik also does the same for Chatterjee,Banerjee etc.

You are purposefully evading my questions and not looking at my links.

My point is that you should go to Mukherjee ,Chatterjee, Banerjee etc and also write 'primarily' ther, for consistency. Justaghost4 (talk) 09:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Anyone can use or adopt any surname . Even the surnames like Bandopadhyay, Chattopadhyay, Mukhopadhyay aren't more than two century old. The source you gave ( Ronald Inden) here confirming this. But we have more sources asserting adoption of Bagchi, Sanyal, Ghoshal by few other communities than others you have mentioned.

You should now tell me why are you only interested in Ghoshal surname? Please read WP:SPA. Thanks.CharlesWain (talk) 09:42, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I know what WP:SPA is. My point is you should go to Mukherjee,Chatterjee,Banerjee articles and also mention 'primarily' there, as according to your Bhowmick source they are also used by other communities. You can't conveniently ignore that part while imposing your alternative facts on Bagchi and Ghoshal. The Bhowmick source means that non Brahmins have also adopted surnames like Banerjee. I believe you should make appropriate changes in those articles for the sake of intellectual honesty. Justaghost4 (talk) 11:46, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Justaghost4, If we have multiple sources confirming that these surnames are also used in other communities, as it is for Ghoshal, we may do the necessary edits there too.CharlesWain (talk) 01:38, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply. But the thing you have linked to in the previous answer seems to suggest that the surname Ghoshal is found among a certain South Indian community. On the other hand, you yourself have written in the article that the Ghoshal is a surname found among Bengali Hindus. Will you now go on to edit the article to delete the term Bengali? This Ghoshal is clearly different from Bengali Ghoshal.

Moreover, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Can you please provide better quality sources? Anyone can write any book. What makes a source reliable is its reputation among scholars, or maybe it being published by a reputed publisher or its author's reputation as a scholar of repute. I am sorry to say that none of your sources have any of these qualities. 

Also, WP:SPS. Not everything is a reliable, reputable source. Justaghost4 (talk) 14:03, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Apparently you don't have idea what SPS is, you're just copying the phrase from somewhere else. This author is considering Lokeshwar Basu as reliable, I don't think any SPA's opinion on reliability of Basu doesn't matter. I shall leave you here. Thanks. CharlesWain (talk) 16:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)