Talk:Germanisation of Poles during the Partitions

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This article is (like many on Polish history in en:WP) biased towards a one-sided nationalistic view. Is it really necessary to describe Richard Blanke as an "historian of German descent", only because you dislike his views ? He is born and grew up in the U.S.

One should also clearly say that Prussia was a tolerant state in religious ic matters for a long time in its history until the 1870s, after which Polish language was increasingly replaced by German in the official context and at school. During the 18th and most of the 19th century Prussia accepted immigrants from all countries as far as they were skilled and willing to work. The settlement policy under Frederick the Great was not intended as a policy of Germanization. It was the policy of an absoand ethnlutistic state that tried to increase its number of subjects and thereby its economic wealth. As Frederick the Great put it: "if Muslims would like to come and settle, we will build mosques for them".
And a second thing: in Prussia and in the German Empire there existed the rule of law (in contrast to neighboring Russia) and the Poles had their opportunities to develop economically, politically and socially. There were numerous Polish clubs and societies, Polish banks, businesses, etc. in Prussia which promoted Polish interests. If Poles were considered "foes of the empire" by conservative politicians, so were Social Democrats, Liberals, the Catholic Center Party, etc. etc. When Poland was reestablished as an independent state after WWI, the former German/Prussian territories (Upper Silesia, Poznania, the corridor) were by far the economically most developed areas of the Polish Republic and the Polish population there was by far the most highly educated (e.g., as seen from the very low rate of analphabets). So, German/Prussian rule was not a simple matter of oppression, as some simplistically like to see it and for quite a few Poles the German culture and society was very attractive and they actively chose to assimilate and were not Germanized by force. --Furfur (talk) 18:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"One should also clearly say that Prussia was a tolerant state in religious and ethnic matters for a long time in its history... During the 18th and most of the 19th century Prussia accepted immigrants from all countries"

This is a known misconception, largely existing in western sources who focus on Prussian treatment of immigrants from western countries, while ignoring or not delving deeper into treatment of Polish population. Prussia in regards to Poles led a discriminatory policy-both based on ethnicity and religious grounds.

"And a second thing: in Prussia and in the German Empire there existed the rule of law (in contrast to neighboring Russia) and the Poles had their opportunities to develop economically, politically and socially." Russia had laws as well, it was not a anarchist country. There were more Polish industrialists, scientists and politicians in Russian Duma than in Prussia. Socially Poles in Russia had higher position than Poles in Prussia. Also they could become officers and there were many Polish generals in Russian armies. In general the situation of Poles in Russia was much better than in Prussia. Also Russia didn't plan to expel Poles from Warsaw and replace them with Russians. While it engaged in discrimination, it was mostly political, not based on racism like in German Empire. Thus Poles had more opportunities for advancement. But this is out of the scope of this topic... When Poland was reestablished as an independent state after WWI, the former German/Prussian territories (Upper Silesia, Poznania, the corridor) were by far the economically most developed areas of the Polish Republic Warsaw, Lodz or Zaglebie Dabrowskie were more industrial than Poznan. Again-a common misconception. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:31, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there were as well Polish soldiers and officers in the German Army as long as they sweared allegiance to the Kaiser. The Poles in the Russian Army: do you think they declared themselves supporters of Polish independance? Certainly not, they had to swear allegiance to the Czar as well. These Polish Generals (who?): did they support Polish independence? What was the teaching language at Warsaw University under Russian rule? It was certainly not Polish. What about the situation of the Catholic church in Russian Poland? There were quite a number of freely and equally elected Polish Deputies in the Reichstag, the German parliament, lobbying for Polish interests. Where there also any in the Russian Duma? The economic situation and development of the former German parts was in general (I am not speaking of single Cities) significantly better than the former Russian parts, you will find this in every book on the Second Republic. And to give you an impression on iliteracy in Poland even 20 years after WWI: [1]. I am certainly not saying that the Poles lived in the kind of state, they had chosen by themselves but to describe the German/Prussian rule as a simple tale of oppression is a too simplistic way of looking at history, cultivating old stereotypes. Interestingly, these one-sided opinions are mainly found in people especially from Eastern Poland or from Poles far outside Europe and not from the "oppressed" Western parts of Poland - this old narrow-minded Dmowski world view. --Furfur (talk) 22:42, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To make Poles look as if merely victims while Prussians as if merely racist perpetrators is arguably a misconception too, especially in the context of that it was a Polish lord who invited the Teutons to enforce Christianisation on (baltic-language speaking) Prussians in the 13th century, of that Prussia became part of Poland for some time as decided by Teutons and Poles, and of that Catholic Poles murdered ten-thousands of White Russians simply for not being Catholic while having had a Counter-reformation. That said, not that so-called Frederick the Great was great about everything however his views may have been quite biased due to his grandfather having fluently spoken Polish and he apparently didn't like his father much, but e.g. that Polish did get abolished as de iure official language in Prussia actually during Bismarck, such seems quite a matter of fact. And there was also the whole issue of NSDAP having taken over Prussia already in 1933. So while perhaps some want to rationalize murder of hundreds of thousands after the war in Prussian Silesia as having been specifically justified since it was Prussians (and unlike Hitler perhaps mostly at that time non-Catholics), Prussia as such did no such thing to begin with about anyone, and e.g. Polish elementary schools did as far as I know exist quite some until days of Wilhelm I. and Bismarck. And by all that not meaning to sweep under the rug what happened, but as far as I know Poland never apologized about enforcing their policies on Prussians with no care in the world about e.g. Old Prussian language schools and that they literally invited germanisation to the Baltikum, so in that context it seems somewhat weird that Prussia does get blamed for apparently not even that bad, such as not having killed those Poles who refused to become baptized as happened when they invited their Teutonic friends over to deal with Old Prussians who were exposed to exactly such treatment. DaLejd (talk) 12:19, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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scientific instead of nationalistic stances

This lemma about ‘Poles’ treats them as a monolitical category (‘all those able to speak Polish are Poles’) and does not discriminate between the very different and no per se congruent modes of Polish identitity: linguistic, social, religious, political, national. Of course not all so called Poles in the broadest way, are national Poles at the same time. In the early 19th century the mass of poor illiterate countryside ‘Poles’ did not feel themselves as such, but looked upon themselves as Roman Catholics in the first place. Those belonging to the noble class (Szlachta) were the real Poles, and these did not accept the lower class as their alikes. Most noblemen were pragmatical and did not object being a part of the Russian e.g. Prussian e.g. Austrian upper class, as such served their interests. In the nationalistic, metafysical, view this important distinction is declared irrelevant and so 'Polish' is transformed to an anachronistically preoccupied category invariably covering one thousands years of ‘Polish history’ and forcing this history in one, however modern, frame. This nationalistic conceptualisation does not fit an international (=English written) Wikipedia. In my contribution to this lemma I introduced nuances between Prussian civilians with a Polish and often bilingual tongue and the like Russian civilians. The last ones were treated as foreigners in Prussia. The first ones as foreigners in Russia. It was up to them to cultivate a non civilian ‘national Polish’ identity in both states, and they did so in many gradations, often changing back and forth towards Polishness. Polish speaking protestants, particularly Lutherans, were generally loyal Prussians and accepted germanization, not heartely, but as a necessary sacrifice to the modern state and their perspectives to rise socially. Above considerations apply in another way to German speaking people too. Roman Catholics among them often loathed Prussian identity (however not a much broader defined German identity). In the 18seventies and eighties , in the eastern provinces they saw upon the Polish speaking population as their fellows in the struggle against the religious restrictions proclaimed by the new, imperial Prussian dominated, German administration (the ‘Kulturkampf’). A lot of these German Catholics in the eastern provinces also had next to German also Polish family ties, spoke Polish as a second language, but made a choice for a national German identity as long as this gave them profit, to do the reverse after 1919, as only a Polish identity guarantied their jobs, firms and occupations. ‘Germanizing’ is an important concept to understand history, however not as a condemnation for two millennia, not as a concept to appoint – so to say genetically homogeneous - perpetrators as against victims, but as a means to understand the layers of identity in which Poles and Germans are deeply interconnected, which nationalists on both sides deny in their search for ever lasting national purity.

Nota bene. The reverance to Frederick the Great of Prussia as a royal 'germanizer' is an insult. Frederick despised the German language, as a medium only fit to the lowest social classes. His own language was French and he tried to frenchify the university of Berlin. He laughed at a French diplomat apologizing for his lack of knowledge of German, by saying that he would improve his linguistic capacity. "That will be lost time, German is no good to you, you'd better learn a real important language at the same time" was Fredericks reply.

User:Kwaremont (User talk:Kwaremont) 14:31, May 21, 2018 (UTC)

two millennia - please don't use irony without explanation. Xx236 (talk) 08:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

on both sides deny - there is no symmetry, Germany influences Polish academy (including historiography) and media, Poland doesn't influence German ones. Poland teaches Germans German language, Germany doesn't teach Polish language even if it's sometimes more useful than Spanish or French. Xx236 (talk) 08:19, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Germanisation was also implemented in Silesia. Some problems were similar. de:Schlesisches Museum zu Görlitz isn't interested.Xx236 (talk) 08:41, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Questions

What about Austria?

Austria did some Germanisation, too, eg. in the army. Either the title should be changed or a new section about Austria added. Two other pages say From 1873 (...) The Germanisation had been halted. Xx236 (talk) 08:30, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

German last names for Polish Jews

It was symbolic Germanisation, should be mentioned. http://www.mrshea.com/germusa/customs/davies.htm Xx236 (talk) 08:36, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Polnisch Lissa

There existed another Lissa (Deutsch Lissa, now Leśnica in Wrocław).Xx236 (talk) 08:45, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nazi Germanisation and post-war repolonisation

Respective pages should be linked to close the subject.Xx236 (talk) 08:51, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Germanisation in fiction

Bartek zwycięzca by Henryk Sienkiewicz and The Outpost (Prus novel) by Bolesław Prus (the place is however situated in Russian partition) influenced many Poles. Xx236 (talk) 10:44, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]