Talk:German settlement in Australia

Australia: South Australia / History Mid‑importance

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population map from 2011 census

Noting the website edits to modify dates on the map, I wonder why we have a map of where German-born people lived in 2011 on an article that is otherwise about people who immigrated over 160 years earlier - none of them would be in the dataset that contributed to the map, so I understand the confusion of subtracting a century from the caption. It would be quite interesting to show a map of where the descendents of the pre-1850 immigrants live now, but I don't think the census collects that information other than a self-selected "ancestry" (and 23.3% just claim Australian). @Bahudhara and 99of9: --Scott Davis ^Talk 02:29, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it did strike me as being incongruous, especially its anachronous placement within the article. It seems that the article has been written by editors with an interest only in exploring 19th century immigration, and apart from the addition of this 1941–1950 map, it has not been expanded to cover later periods of immigration. In the article German Australians there is a similar map from the same census, with the caption "People with German ancestry as a percentage of the population in Australia ...", but this doesn't distinguish between the descendants of the pre-1850 immigrants, and descendants of those who came later. Bahudhara (talk) 03:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the map as the article lead clearly states (at present) that the article is about settlement prior to World War 1. I think my "ancestry" in the 2011 and 2016 census was simply "Australian" as I was not allowed to tick as many boxes as the number of different places my ancestors came from in the 19th century. I'm not sure that some of the places the "German" ones came from were "in Germany" then - German Confederation map has an expanse of light green that was in the Kingdom of Prussia but outside of the German Confederation and I am still learning where they came from. --Scott Davis ^Talk 03:38, 20 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your reading of the lead is completely different to mine. The lead says when settlement started, and when it was at its height, but IMO does not say German settlement is finished, nor limit the scope of the wiki page. I also go by the (completely general) page title. Therefore I think it would be better to write words about more modern German settlement. Then the demographic map with an appropriate caption may work well in that section. TBH I would cut out the passenger list (which seems out of proportion in an article about a 100+ year process) and merge this article with German Australians. --99of9 (talk) 07:02, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am happy to see the passenger list dropped - there were too many ships to South Australia in the first 20 years to list the passengers on them all, and the passengers of that one are no more special than the others. I don't think that migrants in the last 50 years would generally be called "settlers", so I think the page title does imply that it is about the early years of the colonies.

That said, if the content changed sufficiently that the map had meaningful context and provided relevant information, I would be OK with it being added back in. I haven't looked at how articles are divided or structured for other countries that had significant sources of settlement, followed by later waves of migration from the same places. It would be interesting to find sources of any significant differences between German and British settlement/colonisation and interactions with the indigenous population. I know it was German missionaries that documented Aboriginal languages in the early period, but don't have references to hand.

Merging this article with German Australians is a possibility. Is there a universally accepted definition of how many generations someone is a German Australian, Prussian Australian, English Australian, Welsh Australian etc, or of how many of them a person can be at the same time? Would the living descendants of the 1830s and 1840s settlers still be considered German and English Australians, or are we just Australians now? --Scott Davis ^Talk 14:44, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I see your point regarding the word "settlers". I'll delete the passenger list and leave it at that. --99of9 (talk) 03:34, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"first" problem

The paragraph about the people who arrived with August Kavel in November 1838 describes them as "the first immigrants to settle from what is today known as Germany". However the previous paragraph mentioned another group who had arrived from Hesse seven months earlier in April 1838. Hesse is right in the heart of "what is today known as Germany". I think some clarification is needed. Peter Bell (talk) 08:27, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A good point. Assertion removed and paragraph streamlined somewhat. Doug butler (talk) 12:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. No such user (talk) 15:17, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

German settlement in Australia → German settlement in South Australia – Apart from the mention of Queensland in the lead, the article is all about SA. German Australians already exists, and if someone wants to create spin-off articles for other states, that can be done separately. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 02:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tagging editors who have contributed substantially to the article or who may be interested in the discussion: Doug butler, ScottDavis, Bahudhara, Kerry Raymond (re Qld). Laterthanyouthink (talk) 02:28, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Unnecessary. Given there aren't articles about German settlements in other states, nothing is being gained here by specifying "South Australia" rather than simply Australia. Walrasiad (talk) 03:04, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since we are talking about the period before 1901, each colony was essentially a separate country in modern language. Perhaps refining the scope of this article would help to encourage separate articles about settlement in the other colonies. The Kinnear winegrowers section would need to move out to the New South Wales article for example – and needs a much better reference. Should that be new article, or a rename and extension of scope for German settlements in the Riverina? --Scott Davis ^Talk 04:05, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Should enough material accumulate that merits splitting into different articles in the future, we can reconsider. But it is nowhere near that stage yet. As to 'encouraging', I am afraid this proposal would actually be discouraging addition of material. If someone happens to have some stuff about, say, Germans in NSW, they can currently add it here. But if the title is narrowed, then they wouldn't have anywhere to add it to. Don't assume they would be bothered to start a new article. My bet is they would simply shrug and forego it. And that would be a loss. Encourage material first, worry about splitting it later. Walrasiad (talk) 07:48, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Explicitly narrowing the scope to South Australia might encourage developing the content beyond listing groups of ships/immigrants and the first places they settled. Do we have an article that brings together mention of German-speaking diaspora throughout the mid-north, mallee and riverland? Adding that level of detail to an article about Australia would seem to be undue weight. Apart from the deliberate late 1860s migration from the northern Barossa to the area around Walla Walla, there does not appear to have been a lot of early mixing across the colonial boundaries. --Scott Davis ^Talk 04:05, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like you would like to start a new article. There's nothing stopping you. But it doesn't mean this one should therefore cease to exist. It would still have value as a parent article. Walrasiad (talk) 07:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Indifferent. Kerry (talk) 04:12, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Missing "waves"

We seem to be missing a few groups, unless there was really a continuous migration and we shouldn't divide the migrants into waves.

Forty-Eighters#In Australia has two short paragraphs about New South Wales and Victoria, and a longer paragraph about South Australia which seems to fit between the Hermann von Beckerath Group and the San Francisco Group
A number of my ancestors arrived in 1845-1846, and don't seem to be covered by either The Skjold Group (earlier) or the Hermann von Beckerath group (later). I don't have a reference for their motivation.

Does anyone know if there was a mid-1840s "wave", or was there actually just constant migration from both the United Kingdom and Germany/Prussia throughout the middle of the 19th century, and the entire waves part of the article needs to be reconstructed? --Scott Davis ^Talk 05:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]