Talk:Georgian

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Georgian refers to everything that is of Georgian origin

The current explanation of Georgian should stay. There is not only Georgian language and Georgian people if you aren't aware. Word Georgian's 90% of meanings are connected to the nation of Georgia not some other inferior meanings like names, magazines or companies. Go look the pages such as Japanese, Chinese, Romanian, Russian etc. You will see that there is a list of everything what has this or that origin such as Japanese language, script, people, cuisine, culture, dress and etc. So the same should be about Georgian. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 09:35, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

With the exception of Russian, the other pages places most of the unambiguous partial title matches under "See also". Another very significant difference is that there is no primary topic for the base for the adjectival Georgian as there is for Japanese --> Japan, Chinese --> China, Romanian --> Romania, and Russian --> Russia. 11:56, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

And there is Georgian --> Georgia. The primary meaning of Georgian is connected to the country not to some inferior things like it's mentioned in the list. There is not just only Georgian people or Georgian language! The major meaning of Georgian is originated from Georgia. Cannot you understand? There was no US State of Georgia as such when there were tons of Georgian states and kingdoms. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 12:13, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You'll notice that Georgia is not about the country. There is no primary topic and the adjectival form is inherently more ambiguous than other nationality or ethnicity adjectival forms. And regardless, there is no reason to include unambiguous partial title matches in the main section of the page. older ≠ wiser 12:55, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Weak argument. Two Georgia's have one name but as for the meaning of Georgian it only means anything that is connected to the country not the state. Name even three things connected to US State of Georgia that will be connected to the word Georgian. Just name it. And then I can name you tons of things about word Georgian which is connected to the country of Georgia. Georgian can not be connected to the US State of Georgia as such because there is no nation or ethnicity or something close to call themselves Georgians. Don't make me laugh please. Georgian ONLY means EVERYTHING what is of Georgian origin from country of Georgia. There was no Georgia as such untill 18th century my friend and it was called upon the British King George and this doesn't make you right to write US State of Georgia and country Georgia in equal manner. US State Georgia has 10% of meaning an 90% comes for the country. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 13:14, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, not weak at all. Besides the country and the state, the adjectival form Georgian in English also commonly describes a style of architecture and a historic period. However, you are ignoring the primary objection which is that unambiguous partial title matches do not belong in the main section of a disambiguation page. You are simply wrong in your assertion that Georgian ONLY means EVERYTHING what is of Georgian origin from country of Georgia. The very fact that other things are listed on the disambiguation page disproves your assertion. And in English usage, there is no primary topic. older ≠ wiser 13:51, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Georgian is the primary for the country and don't edit war. The importance of this name is only connected to the country and nation and then the rest of it. There was no Georgian era in England or Georgian magazine in Atlanta and there were no Georgian period of British monarchs named after George I, II, III etc which were named Georgian when the ethnic Georgians had their kingdoms named after Georgia and spoke and wrote Georgian language with Georgian alphabet, had Georgian dialects, drank Georgian wine and had Georgian flags and Georgian coat of arms and had Georgian surnames.. Do you understand it now? Turn on some logic please and get yourself aware where does this word comes from for god's sake. Just because someone called US State like that and in that state they have magazine called Atlanta Georgian it does not make it more important then Georgian people and Georgian nation with it's Georgian origin and name. It's an insult to put just two Georgian meanings connected to the country by putting it to some state which was named after 18th century British colonist monarch of North America's land. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 14:03, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but you are simply wrong on the face of it. older ≠ wiser 14:11, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but you're simply wrong. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 14:21, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's obvious further discussion between us is pointless. older ≠ wiser 14:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is the English-language Wikipedia, so it is likely that the most common use of the word Georgian in English will be connected to the "Georgian period" with, in America anyway, things related to the State of Georgia coming a close second. Anyone who has ever searched online or on ebay for books or other items connected to the country of Georgia will know that to be true. Meowy 15:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the dab page looked pretty good in this version of Jan 2009, but would add the two links I added today to the "See also" section to provide access to everything else with "Georgian" as start of, or anywhere in, the title. PamD 16:17, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comment

There seem to be two issues regarding the format of this disambiguation page.

Is there a most common sense for the adjectival term Georgian?
Should the disambiguation page include in the main section a listing of all things pertaining to the country or people of the country of Georgia, even if the terms unambiguous partial title matches?

Discussion

Regarding #1, I don't think there is. There is no primary topic for the base form Georgia. And for the adjective form itself, in English usage, there is also ambiguity with the Georgian era of English history and the style of architecture. older ≠ wiser 14:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding #2, that is clearly contrary to guidance at WP:Disambiguation and WP:MOSDAB. older ≠ wiser 14:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Adjectives are not usually included in Wikipedia as article titles, so do not appear in disambiguation pages, so the question seems irrelevant. But I think that in this case, perhaps with a touch of WP:IAR because of the ambiguity of the word "Georgia", it would be reasonable to include a single extra entry under "Common meanings" such as:

Georgian, of or connected to Georgia (country) PamD 16:05, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have WP:BOLDly added, or as I see now re-added, that single link as the first use in the list. PamD 16:42, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's a reasonable addition. older ≠ wiser 16:47, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've re-added Georgian cuisine because it's pretty common usage in English to refer to a cuisine by an adjective; e.g., "I went to a French restaurant" probably does not mean that the restaurant was in France. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 21:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have also already added, under "See also", the links which will allow everything else "Georgian ...." or including the word "Georgian" to be found, which I think satisfies #2 as far as is compatible with our rules for disambiguation pages. PamD 16:05, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support PamD's choice for 2009 and See also should be added with all things Georgian there. Do it like Japanese is made. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 16:57, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose GeorgianJorjadze's view because, based on his edit pattern, I know he will fill the "see also" with a long list of every article on Wikipedia connected to Georgia (the country). The 2009 version is too short, the current version, at the time I am posting this, is probably a bit too long - some of the trivial links (like "The Georgians") could go - but has nothing particularly wrong with it. Meowy 20:01, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

#1: It's clear (to most people) that there are three main meanings for Georgian, none clearly superior to the others. #2: WP:PTM clearly rules out including everything Georgian, including the Georgian kitchen sink. Some of the entries I've added are a bit iffy, so I'd have no serious objection to getting rid of some of them (though I'm puzzled why Meowy believes The Georgians should be removed). Can we please get rid of the "top importance" Georgia Wikiproject template? Three guesses who put it here. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:42, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You really think an obscure 1920s jazz group called "The Georgians", whose article has no sources, deserves to be on the list? Meowy 20:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. There is an article, which means that some reader might be looking for it, and this is a plausible place for that reader to be looking. [opinion of R'n'B]

Obscurity, thy name is Wikipedia. But I'll look for references for the group. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:54, 22 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All right then. The current version isn't that bad. If that's the way it should be then please also edit these pages below:

These very pages also need to be edited as there's too much of the list into these pages. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 11:06, 22 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The current version is too busy.

It now includes two major sections: (A) a grouping for topics that do not include names of people, and (B) a grouping that includes Names of People (with two entries); plus a See Also section that includes 3 additional categories [Georgia (disambiguation), "All pages beginning with 'Georgian,'" and "All pages with titles containing 'Georgian'"). Within the grouping for topics that do not include the names of people, there are 6 subcategories, the first of which is "Common Meanings," which includes things related to the country Georgia (people, language, alphabet, cuisine), related to the US state, or related to the British Georgian historical period (including Georgian architecture); the other subcategories include Places (eg Georgian Cliff, Antarctica), Airlines, Schools, Arts & Entertainment [eg The Georgians (Frank Garante), an American 1920s jazz band], and Other Uses (eg an American minor league baseball team from 1920 to 1921).

This current version contains too many non-notable categories (one can check the page view statistics for each page to get a general idea of how much traffic a page receives; doubtless, "Georgian Cliff," for example, probably doesn't draw a large volume of visitors, and on that account is not highly notable for WP purposes). A user should be able to gain access to all of the above pages through the gateway of a disambiguation page, but not all of the above need to be directly on the disambiguation page itself.

SUGGESTION to simplify and reduce the content on the Georgian (disambiguation) page so as to improve its usability and value for what is probably the vast majority of users:

The page should be modified to include "Georgian may refer to" followed by two major sections ("Common Meanings" and "People with Name"), as well as a separate "See Also" section [including Georgia (disambiguation), All pages beginning with, All pages containing]. The Common Meanings major section should include the items that are currently there (described in this post above). Everything else on the current page (Places, Airlines, Schools, Arts & Entertainment, Other Uses) should be removed from the page. All of these other items would be more appropriately addressed through the See Also categories. Dezastru (talk) 15:45, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relative notability is not a criterion for inclusion in a dab page. If an entity has an article, it's notable enough. Sweeping away entries because you think the page is too "busy" is not recommended by any policy or guideline that I am aware of. Perhaps there are too many subgroupings, which could be merged into "Other uses", and, as I've stated earlier, some of the entries are marginally "Georgian", but most are legit. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps my argument was inartful. WP:PTM is a relevent policy. Dezastru (talk) 21:36, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how the bands, the newspaper or the team fall afoul of WP:PTM. See for example The Times (disambiguation) and Yankee (disambiguation). (Fuggedabout taking the New York Yankees off that page!) As for places, as a rule of thumb, I include locations where the non-matching part of the name is the actual type of place (bay, cliff), but not something like Coos Bay, Oregon. I find it natural to say "I flew United", so I added the various Georgian airlines. Georgian College is a strong entry, IMO. The other two schools, I'm not so sure about ("Georgian" being more descriptive). It seemed rather odd to leave them out, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if they disappeared. Don't ask me about Georgian alphabet; I have no idea why that's here. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:24, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And what's your problem with the Georgian alphabet? And why don't you have the similar feelings about Japanese, Chinese, Persian, Arabic, Greek etc. scripts and alphabets? GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 09:24, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Georgian Alphabet should be there - ethnicity, language, and alphabet are the three Georgian(country)related subjects that are well-defined things and that are stand-alone subjects. I don't thing something as vague as "Georgian cuisine" should be there. Meowy 21:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You still aren't clear as to the purpose of a dab page. It's supposed to list things synonymous with the title. Cuisine/food belongs because you can say, for example, "I ordered Chinese" (from the takeout restaurant). (R 'n' B said pretty much the same thing above.) Can you say "I wrote in Georgian" (letters)? Dunno about the latter, so I left it alone. As for all the other nationalities, I can only do so much. It's a big encyclopedia. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:42, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hahaha frekin sad...

Just looked at the edit logs....in the entire year of 2010 there were, wait for it, for this type of page:6 edits.

Then in 2011, there were no edits for 11 months from Oct 2010 until Sept 2011. Then all of a sudden there were 10 edits in rapid succession. By April 2012, there have been well over 60 edits of this one page. Reverts and additions and otherwise.

What is wrong with the mantra: don't fix what ain't broken? Now this page is a huge overblown directory. If anyone is daft enough not to be able to distinguish between places, people or the arts associated with the word Georgian, I don't know how this page is going to help? It was fine the way it was three years ago!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.145.117.223 (talk) 14:16, 24 April 2012