Talk:George Hall (Australian politician)

Are there two George Halls here?

The section I have just titled "Public Service" derived from a sentence that said he was private secretary of the harbourmaster. The referenced newspaper showed George Hall was actually private secretary to the Governor, however I am not convinced this is the same George Hall who was an MLC ten years later, but I don't think it is Geo. Hall either as he appears to have arrived in the colony in 1849. --Scott Davis ^Talk 01:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Trove Newspapers are inaccessibly slow today so I'm having trouble checking this, but it shouldn't be difficult to verify: any obituary for the MLC (and we do have a date of death so that's an easy search) is going to mention having been private secretary to the Governor if true. I am dubious that if it isn't the MLC a second George Hall would be notable - private secretary to the Governor and Clerk of the Legislative Council is a possible claim of notability, but not a strong one, unless at least basic details like dates of birth and death can be determined. Good reminder to people to make sure with common names that their source is referring to the same dude, in any case. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:35, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm coming to the conclusion that George Hall Esq in 1838 is different to the 1851 MLC. He does seem to have been a fairly important gentleman in the administration of the colony.[1], but I haven't worked out how he got here yet. He was appointed Private Secretary and Clerk of the Council within a week of Gawler's arrival, but not listed to have travelled with him. --Scott Davis ^Talk 06:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

It looks like you're right: I found an obituary which makes no mention of having held those roles (or anything like them). Also, he would have been quite young (27) to have been occupying those roles then too. It appears that this was the only obituary published (it was published in multiple publications), so unless there a source can be found that they are indeed the same person it seems heavily likely they're not. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:52, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Definitely a different bloke - the Private Secretary went on to superintendent of Parkhurst Prison[2] and married Governor Gawler's daughter.[3] --Scott Davis ^Talk 10:32, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I have moved the text for the other guy to George Hall Esq. pending learning enough about him to work out a better title for the article. --Scott Davis ^Talk 10:54, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I certainly blew that one. Nice work guys. Doug butler (talk) 11:00, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

No worries Doug. It was easy to mix in two guys with the same name in similar roles only ten years apart. I did it too, but wanted to expand on the first role, and it didn't fit, so I needed to revisit the assumption. I still haven't found reports of birth/age and death of George Hall (British administrator), the current title of the other guy's article, who appears to be most significant for his next job, as Governor of Parkhurst Prison, back in Britain. Reliable sources for dates relating to that are hard to come by too, since the theoretically authoritative reference says the prison wasn't established until after George had been governor, and I have good Australian sources for him being governor there from earlier than the only source I've found for his starting and finishing dates says he started. --Scott Davis ^Talk 12:51, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

I've gotta say this has been one of the most difficult Australian biographies I've ever had to try and find details for because "George Hall" is such a common name among both people and buildings and finding anything useful without specific details of what and when you're looking for is really bloody hard. When you mix this with the issue that journalists didn't learn the benefits of getting to the point until about the 1890s, eesh. Looking at Parkhurst - one might guess they're talking about its establishment as an adult prison after his term? It certainly wouldn't be the first time a historical source got a bit sloppy about predecessor institutions. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:16, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

The reference is UK Ministry of Justice "Originally a military hospital, Parkhurst became a prison in 1863, holding young male prisoners." My best guess would be that it is a transposition of digits for 1836, as the other references have "By 1838 ..." about Parkhurst boys, but I'm not really interested in addressing that without knowledge of any UK equivalent to Trove. --Scott Davis ^Talk 00:59, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

There's also several stories about the naming of the Hundred of Hall. Here's what Manning says:

Hon. George Hall, MLC, 1851-1867. George Hall was a merchant mariner before coming to South Australia and became a director of the Burra Mine and chairman of the Chamber of Commerce. The Register of 19 February 1842 published an account of a meeting of the South Australian Company held in London on 10 August 1841 which says, inter alia: 'he [David McLaren] engaged Captain G. Hall to command the Guiana...

And here's an excerpt from a book by one A. E. Martin:

HALBURY - Because it is in the Hd. of Hall, after Geo. Hall secretary to Gov. Gawler, after whom is named Mt Hall, Hall's Bay. He married the Governor's daughter Julia. Later was in charge of reformatory in the Isle of Wight. Doug butler (talk) 20:40, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Ugh, nice catch Doug! I wonder if we can flick that one to the state archives or state library or something - the government surely has to have some sort of record of who they actually named the thing after! The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:53, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

The state gazetteer (accessed through property location browser) says that Hundred of Hall was named by Governor MacDonnell, in 1860 after Hon George Hall, MLC 1851-1867. Mount Hall was named by Eyre in 1839 after the Private Secretary, and Hall Bay (previously Hall's Bay) was named by Gawler after his private secretary and later son-in-law. Halbury was not surveyed until 1875, "Probably on account of being in the Hundred of Hall." --Scott Davis ^Talk 00:59, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Nice work! Any chance you could inline reference that in those articles to eliminate the confusion? The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:23, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Done (with coordinates) in the articles for the two blokes. None of the topographic features named for them are notable enough to even have red links for them yet, and I haven't created Hundred of Hall, South Australia (which could a redirect to District Council of Hall that doesn't exist yet either). Halbury already had it, cited to Manning. --Scott Davis ^Talk 03:56, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

With these hundred-based District Councils, I'm willing to get these done in my next batch since they eliminate a fair bit of confusion - is it just Belvidere, Hall and Ninnes that have come up in these discussions so far? The Drover's Wife (talk) 00:13, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I think they are the three that have come up in recent conversations on article talk pages, plus whatever council Whitwarta started life in on user talk pages. I suspect there will be quite a few others. Hundred of Pinkawillinie, is one I did something with, but not sure if it had a council. I would look at District Councils of Mudla Wirra, Munno Para, Kulpara, and just about any name that has a hundred and a historic district council sharing a name, especially if the town in them also shares that name (Macclesfield, Strathalbyn, Blyth, Clare, Balaklava, Clinton, Kanyaka etc). My interest is more about the "place" and transport routes than local government, so I have not paid close attention to the identity and extent of old district councils until the last week or so. From now on, I will notice and wikilink original district councils if I see them. --Scott Davis ^Talk 09:22, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll give preference to any council where there's a historic area of common interest that's kind of lost to time otherwise (like Belvidere), but I'm having an unproductive week writing-wise so I'll try and keep track of where you're up to with the localities. Less interested in the ones based around towns (because that applies to half of South Australia!) - but District Council of Kanyaka is already done at least. The Drover's Wife (talk) 09:53, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I found a reference to District Council of Wirrega to keep you going then - but it only lasted for four years before being swallowed by the next door neighbour. I found it while I was trying to add some coordinates to old state electorates and fix red links for polling booths. --Scott Davis ^Talk 13:38, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Ha! I'd already seen it and written it before I saw your comment here. Surprising amount turned up on that one. The Drover's Wife (talk) 16:57, 11 February 2016 (UTC)