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Archive 1

Group work

i sorta found no mention of group work in this profile

Gurdjieff emphasized working in a group

fcking2000@yahoo.com 08:53, March 12, 2005 (UTC)

I sorta agree.TheMadBaron 07:08, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Too much detail, not enough perspective

It would be great if this article started with a short paragraph describing his relationship to the world. Also, the text seems to uncritically accept a devotee's viewpoint of Gurdjieff. There are other viewpoints. E.g., http://skepdic.com/gurdjief.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.17.34.65 (talk • contribs) 06:23, April 7, 2005

I propose that this article be split into two sections - this one dealing with straight biography (to include more detail of early travels and influences) and another dealing with G's ideas and teaching - 'The Work', or the 'Fourth way' - complete with skeptical criticism. At present, The Work redirects to The Fourth Way, which is described as a non-fiction book stub (ie. pertaining to Ouspensky's book on the subject). How about a dis-ambiguation page for 'The Fourth Way'? TheMadBaron 17:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, especially the inclusion of skeptical criticism. I like some of his ideas but the article seems to be largely written by fans. Personally, I see him as something of a mystic charlatan and his organization have cult-like aspects. Make room for the good insights but also nail the unsavory aspects. WpZurp 18:35, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Huh? "Good" insights and "unsavory" aspects are necessarily points of view. Shouldn't we just present what is fact on Gurdjieff, and let others decide what is unsavory, not you? TheGunslinger 08:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Vril Society

Nazi mysticism says "The Vril Society, or Luminous Lodge, has no documented activities until 1915, but is believed to have been founded by Russian magician and metaphysician Gergor Ivanovich Gurdyev (also known as George Gurdjieff)." Is that true? sounds made up to me. GangofOne 20:36, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A great number of things are made up about characters as enigmatic as Gurdjieff. He was, admittedly, an accomplished trickster, and the idea of his diverting nazi time, money and effort into flying saucers or whatever has a certain appeal. However, given the fact that a great deal of his life was spent living communally or travelling in company, and that his ventures have been recorded in some detail by his disciples (Ouspensky, Bennett et al) who make no mention of the Vril society, to the best of my knowledge, this does seem highly unlikely.
It is clear from his writing that Gurdieff detested war, and would have had little time for nazis. TheMadBaron 07:05, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Fixed now. Foundation of the Vril Society is atributed to General Karl Haushofer, a student of Gurdjieff. TheMadBaron 18:40, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
There has NEVER been any substantiated link between Gurdjieff and the Nazis or anyone who went on to become one, and furthermore, what IS recorded is that Gurdjieff was responsible in occupied Paris for sheltering and feeding Jews in hiding (see William Patrick Patterson's VOICES IN THE DARK for one source).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.171.36.80 (talk • contribs) 06:26, March 8, 2006 .

Bibliography

Can somebody find the publication year for the couple of books that are missing one? Then we can sort these into chronological order. Failing that, alphabetical order by author. TheMadBaron 22:15, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Unless you're as lazy as me, you can get the years from amazon.com. You can even snag ISBN numbers if so inclined. Hmm, did older books get assigned ISBN numbers? WpZurp 23:06, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Another problem is that many of the books, such as All and Everything which are said to be "published after Gurdjieff's death" were in fact published before his death, but only to a small group. Gurdjieff, in his visits to America, would constantly (or so I hear) have read the chapter "America" from All and Everything :). While this chapter, like all the others, is written in allegory, it is reputed to have soured the temperament of some in attendance. So yeah, the books were "published" multiple times, sometimes wide, sometimes not. It'd be next to impossible to illicit exact dates of the smaller releases of the publication of Gurdjieff's works. TheGunslinger 06:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm far lazier than you. Trust me on this. :)

Problem is, Amazon lists the publication date of a given edition - the original publication date isn't always available. Still, I've filled in the gaps with the best data I could find quickly, and in so doing, split Orage's 'On Love' and 'Psychological Exercises' into the original seperate volumes - I haven't checked any of the dates originally listed, or bothered to add ISBN's. I'm FAR too lazy for that. TheMadBaron 18:19, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph

"Georges Ivanovich Gurdjieff (January 13, 1872 - October 29, 1949), was a Greek-Armenian mystic and 'teacher of dancing'. The teachings were about working on oneself to awaken conscience and create a soul to withstand death. The teaching is preserved by Gurdjieff's and his pupils' books and many groups for practicing and disseminating his teachings."

To my mind, this sounds confused now. It sounds like the final sentence refers exclusively to dance. Gurdjieff did introduce himself as a teacher of dancing when he was in Russia, but the mystic dance movements he passed to his followers do not feature in his written work, and constitute only a small part of his legacy. We might as well describe him as a carpet salesman. TheMadBaron 10:04, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Gurdjieffs birthdate is disputed. Some say 1866 (biographer James Moore thinks so), others 1877 (Most quoted birthdate in encyclopedias etc.). The 1872 birthdate is according to James Webb. I've added a question mark after the his birtday.

user:peterak 13:28, September 30, 2005


Neuilly

Neuilly is a disambiguation page. In which particular Neuilly did Gurdjieff die? TheMadBaron 03:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Help wanted to deal with a [G. I. Gurdjieff] spammer

Every so often a spammer using an IP address that starts with 64.228.225. spams links to bogus web sites. I have tracked down and reverted all I could find, but I'm getting a little sick of tracking all these articles on my watchlist (it's up to 263 pages by now). Can I ask the regular, frequent editors of this article to keep an eye out for this person? If they hit again, please revert the edit and warn the spammer. If you have the time, check out what other edits they made that day and revert them as well -- or just let me know and I'll do it.

The link they like to add to this article is [http: // www angelfire com/me2/sutras/gg html A Selection of Gurdjieff Quotes]. The real point of the link is to build search engine rankings for the commercial links at the bottom of the page; the same spamdexer is linking similarly bogus pages for Hindu mystical figures and U.S. country music stars -- all with the same links at the bottom of the page.

The spammer also recently created an account, User:Borgengruft.

For more info, see:

Thanks for your help.--A. B. 06:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

New Critics Position

A new critics position just got done being written. Besides the horrid grammatical errors (which perhaps I am not free of either), and the spelling errors, there were other problems that I fixed.

- First off, a critics perspective is not an editorial license. The critics perspective can be rightly used to illustrate what the critics say, not simply pass them off as fact. Mentioning Storr a couple of times as saying things, and then proceeding to write his claims in declarative form for the next two paragraphs is not an appropriate NPOV approach.

- Secondly, some of what was written is analysis of Gurdjieff's work. An example of this was a declarative statement about Gurdjieff's cosmology. I can assure you, that if you think that Gurdjieff's cosmology is contemptuous of "ordinary people" or something like that, that you have no understanding of it whatsoever.

- Thirdly, there were references to Fourth Way cults. There is no doubt that there have been many groups (Alex Horn's ... for one example) that have said to be Gurdjieff's teachings, that have been nothing more than cults. This, of course, is true of everything from Christianity to Islam, tons of wacky spaceship theories, science fiction novels, and countless other sources. To pin Gurdjieff with the responsibility for what others do with his work is like blaming Christ for the KKK. I'm not saying that Gurdjieff's work has not be held in hand by many at the helm of a cult, I'm saying that it is, and should not be noted as such, a value he himself endorsed.

- Lastly, some of what was there was so incomprehensibly written, it had to be removed all together. I apologize if English is your second language, I do not mean to personally attack you, I only mean that is was unintelligible. This leads me to believe that some who have written in this part of the entry have little or no point of reference when it comes to Gurdjieff. I will be happy, in the near future, when time presents itself, to overhaul this entry in a manner that I hope will suit both sides, in the mean time, I hope that those who do not have an understanding of Gurdjieff (whatsoever) will not interject simply what they have "heard" about him, nor what others seem to be saying. Simply citing what someone says does not make it true. There is someone who has said just about anything about many public figures, citing this people means nothing. Simply because there is precedence to an opinion, does not necessarily lend to it's validity.

TheGunslinger 11:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


This paragraph, if you read it a couple times, doesn't actually make sense.

"The nature of Gurdjieff's activities and philosophies as presented in his writings is disputed. His critics seem to fall into one of two camps. Some regard him as a charismatic master, who brought new knowledge into Western culture and whose "operational readiness" concept is valid and applicable in modern psychology[This quote needs a citation]. Others assert he was simply a charlatan with a large ego and a constant need for self-glorification.‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed] His Biography and other writings offer plenty of material supporting both views, depending upon perspective and entrance for both classifications."

How is it that "the nature of ... Gurdjieff's philosophies ... is disputed." I don't really understand what this is getting at. I mean, the nature of almost everyone's philosophies is disputed. I just ... I dunno, I sounds kinda stupid. Then the other part that doesn't make sense, is that these "critics" who are supposed to fall into "two camps" as it would turn out are not both critics, and they're a highly polarized view of Gurdjieff, which most people don't actually hold. Then it goes on to state that "His biography and other writings ..." which is an ambiguous statement almost making it sound like Gurdjieff's other writings somehow support that he was a charlatan, which would be a hard case to make.

TheGunslinger 17:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality. What exactly is disputed?

Looking at the talk page, I do not readily understand what exact parts of the article are currently under a neutrality dispute. Can someone please clarify why the tag is currently there and what would need to be done? AdamDobay 00:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Good question. Let's see who the person is who put the tag on the page.
(cur) (last) 18:32, 20 June 2006 64.131.201.238 (Talk | block) (→* NPOV - article seems to be written by Gurdjieff's followers *)
That annon editor (IP) only made a few edits[1], perhaps the NPOV link is just spam. Do we have a consensus on that? Alex756 01:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand either what exactly is disputed. It seems a reasonable enough write up to me. I don't necessarily think it is important to present "both sides" as it is to present a balanced look. Presenting both sides of Gurdjieff is like presenting both sides of any controversial figure. I think it is reasonable to think that people looking him up would be more interested in what his teachings say (which he claims to be true) rather than what people who believe them to be false say. With someone like Gurdjieff, who's teachings are still in practice today, it would be a mistake to label what is contained in this page "factually inaccurate" simply because it is a reflection of what Gurdjieff claimed to be one of the ways to enlightenment. Let us not forget, Gurdjieff, like many other teachers, never claimed his way was the only way. TheGunslinger 08:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to delete the POV tag. If someone really cares and wants to put it back up. Fine. TheGunslinger 20:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Critic does not mean necesarily a lie or an attack. Neutrality

This article need to be witten in a neutral point of view. Whithout the fanatic and esoteric bla bla bla!

Some facts need to be described:

  1. The work of gurdjieff is unfinished.
  2. The cults and sects related to Gurdjieff teachings.
  3. A real reference of critics of his work.
  4. The new age movement.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 148.245.70.50 (talk • contribs) 22:13, August 22, 2006.

I had to remove your double entry, because there was an entry on both bottom and the top. The problem is that you're not going to find some with a neutral point of view. Typically, people don't have these types of points of view. Hopefully we can get a neutral article. What you don't seem to understand is that those outside of the Gurdjieff esoteric circle, most of them, have no clue whatsoever about his teaching. You might be an example of this. I'll answer your questions below.
  1. No, it was not. Except in the sense that "The Work" or what have you is never finished, his work was in fact finished. This is a great example of those outside the circle not knowing what they are talking about. All and Everything encompasses absolutely everything someone needs to know about the Fourth Way to follow it as far as Gurdjieff himself could have guided someone. All that remains is someone who is capable and willing to help you interpret A&E.
  2. Sure. Do it. That is an omission ... not a point of view issue. Be sure to note which of these "cultists" were actually in line of transmission with Gurdjieff. Better yet ... why don't we make a graph of the line of transmission.
  3. Find one without an axe to grind, a politic to push, or a doctrine to sell - and properly represent their view and you won't hear a peep out of me.
TheGunslinger 23:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"The problem is that you're not going to find some with a neutral point of view. "

Good, but im not looking to find someone neutral, im looking to create an enciclopedic article and not a cult propaganda!.

"What you don't seem to understand is that those outside of the Gurdjieff esoteric circle, most of them, have no clue whatsoever about his teaching."

Are you telling me that nobody "ouside de Gurdjieff esoteric cicrle" has the capacity to describe him or his work? That only Gurdjieff "fans or teachers" can talk about it? and what about the cientific comunity? Sociologists and Psicologists? Tel me who are we to decide this?

"No, it was not."

Sorry but, there is evidence that many things are incomplete in his work. "I left you in a real mess" he said just before he died. There are big holes in his phylosopy that only Gurdjieff and God know what they realy mean, and tooked to his tomb. His work left to many questions and has to many ambiguos interpretations. His school was shotdown just a few years after his death. Todays schools are only copys. etc.

"Except in the sense that "The Work" or what have you is never finished"

Why there is always double meaning for every word in the Fourth Way?, "Unfinish is not unfinish". Let me tell you my theory of why your perosnal "work" does not end ever, thats because someone has brainwashed you to believe that, and to believe some day YOU will be realy YOU! and not your other YOU´s! and for that you have to depend on a book, a bizare and pragmatic cosmology, and some kind of buddha.

"Be sure to note which of these "cultists" were actually in line of transmission with Gurdjieff."

Sure, maybe we could differenciate them. But i think they are the same thing. what was first the egg or the chicken?

"Find one without an axe to grind, a politic to push, or a doctrine to sell - and properly represent their view and you won't hear a peep out of me."

I will.

Ok, this is stupid. It's stupid to login without an account, plunk up a NPOV tag, bitch about how the article is written by fanatics, and then proceed not to do a damn thing either on the talk page, or the page itself.

Tags like that are there to let people know there is an ongoing discussion about the accuracy of the article, not for some person who doesn't necessarily agree with what is on there to just kinda "swing" by and stamp it with his personal seal of NPOV.

If you're going to actually contribute or discuss this, then do it. And for God's sake, quit putting up NPOV tags. (and sign your comments too)

TheGunslinger 20:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


Idries Shah

This is highly controversial among most Gurdjieffians: "Some authors such as Idries Shah have asserted that the source of his teachings are the Naqshbandi Sufis .See also The Teachers of Gurdjieff by Rafael Lefort." Idries Shah is commonly acknowledged as a "trickster teacher", in all biographies i have read. Rafael Lefort is an anagram for "A real effort" - and this book have no credibility whatsoever. If no one disagrees - I will remove all information about Idries Shah (This man is much more relevant to the life of the Gurdjieff follower J. G. Bennett). --PeterKristo 09:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It should not be in the Intro, and as written looks like POV. But OK to mention under Reception, as one of several theories about the origins of G's teachings. There needs to be more on those theories, such as Ouspensky's claim that the technical vocabulary was first formulated in early 19th century Russian Freemasonry, Mouravieff's claim that it is esoteric Christianity, Murat Yagan's claim that it stems from Caucasian Ahmsta Kebzeh, etc. Jedermann 10:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure how to do it myself so can someone please make a link between Gurdjieff's books and the articles on wikipedia about that book. (eg. Beelzebub's tales article exists at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub%27s_Tales_to_his_Grandson)

nevermind i did it

Picture

I am new to this so i don't know the wikipedia's policy on pictures, but i thought a profile should have a picture so i added that one. I don't know the license for the picture because it can be found on many sites. So if anyone knows it please added it.Aeuio 03:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Do the legwork, my friend. Your picture will be gone soon, predictably (and no, I will not remove it). =).Yeago 17:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The picture was taken in 1924 by an unknown photographer, and today it can be found on many websites. I don't think that there is a copyright for this picture.Aeuio 18:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Is it your aim to make this picture remain? Then legwork my friend! "I don't think" won't cut it to the copyright nazi's! =). If you think I'm crying wolf, please ignore me.Yeago 20:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Finding something was actually easier than I thought. This site http://gurdjieff1949.tripod.com/ says at the bottom:
Copyright© 2006-2007 by Philip C. Norfleet
All Rights Reserved. Published in the United States of America. Essays and digital photographs, provided at this web site, may be reproduced for nonprofit personal or educational use only. Any commercial use of these materials is a violation of United States copyright laws and is strictly prohibited.
And if you click on G.I.Gurdjieff in the introduction then that picture pops up. This site is apparently under construction so I just hope they don't remove the picture, but its no problem if they do because they have others.
So I guess we are done with this whole copyrights business.Aeuio 03:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Never mind the last sentence - I just read something about wikipedia's rules on nonprofit personal or educational use images. Apparently you knew what you were talking about when you said "copyright nazi's".Aeuio 04:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I would not speak if I hadn't seen it done a dozen times. =). Its only a matter of time before a bot comes along and flags it for deletion. That's great you found that text. Did you apply it to the uploaded file? Yeago 20:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I did (click on the picture)- while it's still there. Aeuio 21:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

This summary is too superficial

As a person that has studied Gurdjieff for some forty years, I find this summary of Gurdjieff's ideas very superficial. Charlatan he was not. Any account of Gurdjieff's ideas should have some account of the notion of self remembering which is central to understanding him. Gurdjieff claimed that mankind is asleep and he advocated that we begin to awake by observing ourselves. Although we commonly assume that we are able to do, have will, are able to observe ourselves at will, in fact an earnest attempt to observe oneself will show that this is very difficult to achieve. Try observing yourself every time you go hrough a door over the next 24 hrs and see ifhow many doors you catch. This is an exercise commonly given to new students. Everything is automatic in sleeping man. Gurjieff claimed that we are born mechanical beings, which meant that if we simply accept what we are born with, and do not work intentionally towards evolving, with right ideas, we will be prey to circumstance and our intellectual, habitual and emotional life will be driven by random events as they occur. When a man (woman) develops a capacity to observe themselves then they create an opportunity not to be mechanical - that is to have some ability to not be prey to circumstantial events and begin to have some choice about how they react. At first this capacity is much more limited than the ordinary man might assume (as we errorsomly ascribe ourselves the ability to control our actions) but as the being continues to work rightly then this capacity to have some freedom, some choice expands. Self remembering has two levels. The first or lesser self remembering is when one catches oneself in the middle of some mechanical reaction (such as reacting to some critical remark) and sees, perhaps stops the mechanical reaction - (perhaps to be offended, indignant, hurt etc) and simply observes. Only with self remembering - a form of impartial awareness, can one alter ones mechanical reactions. The second form of self remembering is very rare - it is when the being's consciousness comes in contact with the source of their being. I shall not say much of this here, except one must take great care not to fall into delusion - wish fulfilment or the seduction of the accompanying vivaciousness of images. If anyone wishes to understand Gurdjieff's work, I would recommend first reading Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous, which will give an overview of G's early ideas, then read Maurice Nicholl's (also a pupil of Jung) Psychological Commentaries on the teachings of Gurdjieff. Nicholl's work is an excellent way to learn how to see oneself directly. Only after this tackle Beelzebub's Tales - Gurdjieff's masterpiece, as this is deliberatly obtuse to reasoning and the modern academic approach to ideas, as he makes clear in the first chapter. It takes another kind of cognition to understand this work, one far removed from reasoning as it is commonly understood. Their are many poorly understood misrepresentations of Gurdjieff's ideas - such as this entry. Lastly I will draw attention, very briefly to an allegory that plays an important part in the Work. A being is compared to a horse, carriage, driver and master. In this allegory the driver represents the thinking mind, the horse represents the emotions, the carriage represents the body or habitual mind. It is said that in common man the driver is distracted, the horse is badly educated and does not obey the driver, the carriage is rusty and in a poor state of repair. Because each of these centres (intellectual, emotional and moving or habitual centre) ar at odds with eachother and disfunctional, the master - or real I, that is the author of the being, does not sit in the carriage meaning does not play a part in the ordinary consciousness of the being. Instead the assembly acts as a Hackney carriage, that is the being is subject to any whim that occupies the attention of the current moment, and is constantly running between here and there with no real purpose. Further discussion of this allegory can be found in Ouspensky's book quoted above, and in the final chapter of Beelzebub's Tales. Work must be done to balance these three 'centres'. This is much more than gaining an intellectual undestanding of his ideas, it is emotional work and work on habits that is also required. With work on all three centres, then balance and a sense of focus on the real issues of living develops. Gradually, one becomes able, to achive a sense pf proportion, to understand what is really important in one's life, to develop a real sense of spiritual purpose. Gurdjieff did not require any form of blind faith or false personal commitment from his pupils, rather it is better to be critical in approach, to find the value of his ideas in oneself, to the satisfaction of oneself, only in this way can realwork proceed. Gurdjieff would constantly try to shrug off those that wish to idolise him. Gurdjieff is no cultist in the sense of trying to hypnotise followers to follow him, rather he insisted that pupils attempt to de-hypnotise themselves from the conditioning that modern education and culture has implanted in their psyche. If you are to understand your being, then you must understand that by the mechanism of inheritence there is a great deal more to your being than simply what has been provided by your experiences since your birth, but how can you understand this question? What language is the history of your inheritence written in? Would it be in the language of modern thought? The language of the syllogism? If you do not understand the language of your inheritence, which has given you the outcomes of the efforts of all your ancestors, then how can you claim that you can account for yourself? One may be extremely clever, perhaps a person well respected in philosophical circles or in the field of psychology, but can you understand the importance of your own being, are you living on the surface of yourself, merely collecting intriguing ideas, but acting without a true connection with your inner being? Can you sense, without indocrination, filtering by concept, dogma or creed, what is truly important to the evolution of your being?

I think that you might have been refering to this
Centers (Fourth Way)
Law of Four
The Laws (Fourth Way)
Ray of Creation
There are some others as wellAeuio 04:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Last Revision

Yeago don't rv things without giving a good reason

1(rv) I am putting the "see also" back cause I have no idea why you would get rid of this section. Nearly all articles have it so I don't see what's POV about this article having it.(If you think that some other links should be included then feel free to add them)

2(rv) I don't know why you reverted this also. It says "Symathezers regard him as..." so therefore its not POV for me to say how they regard him (I could easily say that the "Critics regard him as..." is POV pushing.) PS just so we are on the same page could you please explain to me what "operational readiness" means.Aeuio 17:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello, sorry for giving the impression I was being hostile.
As for the See Also. Sorry, I didn't realize it removed with that revert.
I think the 'sympathizers...' section, which flaunts G's system as being 'far superior to modern psychology' is vague drum-beating (just as the opposite critics section would be). I think a more specific and less value-based description of the pros and cons of G's system would be more apporpriate. Of course sympathizers and agree and critics disagree--the name alone says that. What more can we say here?
As for 'op readiness'--I have no idea. That's why I was in favor of the cite tag being there.
Yeago 01:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I just got confused when you deleted the "see also". Anyways, I suppose then that the "op readiness" should be changed. I went through the history of the article and it seems that the user 148.245.70.50 who was pushing for critics on Gurdjieff, is the one who first wrote "operational readiness", AND he is the one who later put the tag after that sentence (I could be mistaken because this sounds very strange).
Since what I wrote does sound flaunty, something else which says that sympathizers believe that Gurdjieff's psychological and cosmos explanations are better than the modern science ones, could be inserted instead. Aeuio 02:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Cool. Well there is plenty of material although most of what I can think of relates more to Ouspensky. I haven't read G extensively. Anyway, I definitely look forward to your contributions. Also, I'd definitely like to know where "op readiness" came from. Googling it, the only link between the phrase and Gurdjieff is mirrors to this article! Probably a good thing it was removed.Yeago 16:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I reword it, and if you think that it should be further reworded then feel free to do it. Concerning the "op readiness", since it was written by a user who was pushing his view on Gurdjiff based on what he read in Storr's book "Feet of Clay", it most likely came from that book.(I am not positive on this because I haven't read that book) Aeuio 20:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


Lack of verifiable sources

Hi,

Much of the article, while clearly based on sources, reads like OR because the sources or references are not cited. The following is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research –

"Original research (OR) is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to material that has not been published by a reliable source. It includes unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories, or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position — or which, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."

Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say."

For further detail, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research

So paradoxically, while we have an absolute wealth of sources in the links, bibliography, etc, much of the actual article itself is unsourced.

I propose we do some work on providing such sources, and where none can be found, unceremoniously dump the content as OR. I've made a little start with inserting references in the text. Jayen466 22:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with this citing sources movement. If you did that then the entire references section would be filled with either Meetings, Miraculous or Beelzebub, because most info in this article can be found in those books. (the critic references would also be monotone if not even worse.) Therefore I think that just leaving a bibliography is more suited for this article, but if you wish to source things then go right ahead as long as you don't delete anything - because all of the info could be sourced if you are willing to go through every book and every related website. Aeuio 02:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability -- the onus is on the editor who contributes material to provide sources. And there is no doubt in my mind that the article will be better and more useful to the reader if the statements in it are sourced. It also helps stability -- edits are less likely to be reverted by another editor if they are properly sourced, and the page isn't a free-for-all for everyone's personal opinions about what Gurdjieff said, was, meant etc. Hence, e.g., personal websites and the like should not be used as sources either, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources – I think these guidelines are sensible. Besides, looking for sources often proves fruitful in more ways than one. For an example of a well-sourced article, see Rabindranath Tagore. Surely you would agree that that is somewhat more "encyclopaedic" than what we have here right now? Jayen466 11:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Providing sources it not the end-all-be-all of WP. Certainly they're helpful and suggested but to a point. For example, you don't see anyone putting a fact/source tag on article Duck where it claims that ducks have bills, do you? Moreover, people can produce a source for anything, so even if sources are placed, it doesn't necc mean anything. You're not going to just dump everything that isn't sourced. You want to put source/fact tags on it, that's fine with me. But this article is quickly becoming an unreadable, unelegant mess.Yeago 18:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I second this. If there was an edit war on the article, such as there usually is on "war related articles" on wikipedia, then sourcing things from reliable sources would be a solution. Since no one is pushing for their POV right now on the Gurdjieff article I think that the article will only worsen by sourcing everything. Its true that who ever wrote the critics pov on Gurdjieff didn't know anything about Gurdjieff and I could easily prove it all wrong. But that would make it look like there was no opposition to Gurdjieff's ideas - which is very false.
Besides, I could very well source everything about Gurdjieff's teaching from Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson. This would be dumb because there would be no critics who could verify this.
If you are going to source go ahead, but don't delete or major change things.Aeuio 20:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
"Besides, I could very well source everything about Gurdjieff's teaching from Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson. This would be dumb because there would be no critics who could verify this."
Hi Aeuio, I believe you misunderstand the point. This page is about G. Its function is, in part, to describe G's teachings, and his works therefore are a primary source for this article. What sourcing does here is ensure that critics will be able to verify that when we say G. said XYZ, he actually did say XYZ. Our personal POV on critics' lack of understanding also has no place in the article, as you say (another purpose of sourcing). If it has any bearing on this matter, please be assured that I hold Gurdjieff in the highest possible regard. Jayen466 21:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe that you do, but we're not arguing about the pro's and con's of G. We're arguing about the pro's and con's of the approach to Wiki-editing that says 'cut out everything that isn't cited'. I've seen several good morsels removed over the past few days because of this. Sure, some of it appeared anecdotal but that's no reason to cut it out.
What I am stressing, and Aeuio seems to concur with, is that readability is just as important as verifiability. Personally I have no sympathy for the Original Research witchhunt that has taken over WP this past year. While of course we don't want blatant errors in our pedia, but.. what about READER BEWARE? You're not foolish enough to go pick up prostitutes without bringing condoms, now, are you?
Just so, expunging all questionable content from WP just so people who don't wear mental condoms can play safely here is making articles like this unbearable to read. Yeago 00:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I am afraid I am unable to follow your reasoning when you say that "expunging all questionable content ... is making articles like this unbearable to read." Nor do I think your comment on picking up prostitutes is particularly germane here. And if so, what about WRITER BEWARE? However, I think the main bones of the article are now sourced. :-) Cheers, Jayen466 00:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I gotta say that I don't see your reasoning behind adding sources to this article, but nevertheless since you didn't delete nonsourced facts this article didn't turn into what Yeago called unreadable. Aeuio 02:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your edits, Jayen. Looking at [diff] I'm sad to see some things go. I'll give it a once over to make sure it actually tells a story instead of being a jumbling of well-sourced, totally atomized facts, as these articles tend to turn into when the Original Research mob shows up. Anyway, thanks a lot for your work.Yeago 16:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Trying1483, can you provide sources for Gurdjieff's influence on the individuals you mentioned in your edit? Jayen466 23:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

French Wikipedia

I just went over the Gurdjieff article on french wikipedia and I realize that its a serious case of POV and terrible format. (if someone wants to verify this but can't understand french that well google "french wikipedia gurdjieff" and have google translate the page) So I think the link to the french version page should be removed. Aeuio 23:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that's an appropriate solution. I'd just flag it NPOV over there and let the frenchies deal with it.Yeago 02:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Your idea does sound better, so I tried doing that and it seems that if I did that then I would have to go and argue over there or otherwise they'd remove the {npov}(That's what it sayed on their weird french NPOV tag). I don't speak french that well to go and do that, and judging by the discussion over there the NPOV thing was already tried and failed (What's even worse is that there is an administrator pushing for an anti-gurdjieff view overthere). Anyways if you or someone else wants to restore the link to the french wikipedia then do so. Aeuio 21:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that many links that are in the article, and the ones that are trying to be added, are links to various Gurdjieff foundations, eg: Miami, Florida, UK... I was thinking of either deleting the minor ones and leaving the major ones, or organize it better, or create a separate page just for those links. I would agree with the third option the most, since people are going to keep adding those links. Aeuio 13:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Recently removed the Memphis, among other regional and study-group links. I feel that including them in the article makes it cluttered. Also, groups see them and decide to make vanity edits. Yet interested, local members would be interested in Gurdjieff sites, potentially. I suppose that's what Google is for?Yeago 04:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, duh. This has been started already. If some other site wants to be an international group index, we'll link to that. Till then, only the "notable" groups get links (those started by him, those involving famous people, etc)Yeago 16:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I know, I already agreed [2] (I just forgot to mention that here) Aeuio 20:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Contains no info, just links to purchaseable books.Yeago 05:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

True. Anyways Yeago, we ought to fix the links on Ouspensky's page. Either you do it (or at least start it), or I will when I get back. Aeuio 14:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Doing some of it now. They're all a messYeago 14:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining why you deleted it. That makes total sense. We'd like to turn the site into something more informational that would qualify as Wikipedia-worthy, we're just getting started. Can I email you when we are done to see if you think it's a sufficiently informational link? In the meantime, do you think the "commercial sites" is an acceptable fit, even though all the money goes to the Work/Foundation? Ericbarnhill
You ought to make the site go into Detail about the connections between Pentland and Gurdjieff/his work as well as the connection with other Gurdjieff's groups. (as well as some info of Gurdjieff on the side). If it has this info it wont be counted as "commercial". And just post a message here when you make the updates. Aeuio 00:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The issue of linking is not so much an ethical concern over where the money goes. The first thing you may work on is establishing Pentland himself as being notable. I've never heard of him, but I'm open to the idea that he's notable. Tell us who he is, and why his take on Gurdjieff is enlightened. Secondly, even if he is Jesus, a site with strictly premium content isn't really that useful to Wikipedia, so consider including some free, quotable, citable content. But the commercial sites I left kept either a) "exclusive" Gurdjieff writings or b) historical documentaries--perhaps of interest to researchers/interested people.Yeago 03:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
As far as I know, this is who we are talking about. Ericbarnhill, since you know some info on him you ought to expand this page. Aeuio 19:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Criticism

Criticism as it appears now, I think, is rather unencyclopedic - both in language and partly in issues. Some of these criticisms seems to site A.Storrs article on Gurdjieff in "Feet of Clay", but in this book Storr (which suprises me) also suggests that Gurdjieff was schizophrenic and a madman. He bases this on a rather lengthy theory where he among a few other things mentions that Gurdjieff makes up his own words (Heptaparaparshinokh, Heropass etc) with his own personal definitions - according to Storr a proof that Gurdjieff could suffer from Schizophrenia... Well. I don't find Storrs argumentation convincing. Even IF Gurdjieff was schizophrenic, it would not invalidate his theories as such. The criticism as it appears now is too polemic, and the endwords "These observations from the literature do not close the question; they can open it wider" is simply a sentence that should not appear in a encyclopedia. People click the Gurdjieff biography link in Google to find a concise and objective biography of this man, not a discussion. I've read through the German article, and i think the criticism there is consise and to neatly summed. (Pardon my bad spelling).--PeterKristo 08:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but I don't know what to do with that section. If you do then feel free to change it. (Just avoid weird Storr theories) Aeuio 16:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The criticism section appears to be not really criticism at all, but rather a defense of Gurdjieff, including an unnecessary, very long quote from Mr. Gurdjieff which takes up most of the section. Many have accused Gurdjieff of being little more than a charismatic con-man (see the Skeptics' Dictionary). This should be discussed in the criticism section. Algabal 11:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Cool, help us out. =)Yeago 13:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
If you know something reasonable and wish to add it then do so. Aeuio 16:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the section needs a major rewrite. As a follower of Gurdjieff, I do not see myself as being able to write it in an unbiased fashion. Someone who is more critical of Gurdjieff ought to do it. Please see P. Washington's Madame Blavatsky's Baboon for an extremely critical (yet reputable) discussion of Gurdjieff. Algabal 20:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
That's true for me too, and that's the same reason why I said "I don't know what to do with that section". I am fine with anything as long as its reasonable and with evidence to back it up (in a way that sounds kind of cheap). Aeuio 20:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Moon Theory

I have added this into the article (although I couldn't figure out into which section to put it in). I was surprised to the fact as how many people have this backwards, (even by some who claim to "know a lot about the Fourth Way"), so I have added this as it clears up many things and accusations. Aeuio 20:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Aeiou, I noticed that you removed the link to the Fellowship of Friends page from the "External links" section because "the fof article doesn't talk about Gurdjieff". Can you explain then what the link to The Dog is doing there? Thanks. Mario Fantoni 00:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, I'll remove it. Aeuio 00:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I just found out that links to Wikipedia pages should be placed in the "See also" section, not the "External links" section. Mario Fantoni 00:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

fof article doesn't talk about Gurdjieff, except of what they interpret from him. While, the president of the fof even said that they aren't a Fourth Way school as presented by Gurdjieff, while every Gurdjieff school today regards it as fake, and there is no connection between fof and any other Gurdjieff school. So let's not start a big argument here. Aeuio 00:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I see "The Dog" is gone. I removed 2 commercial sites: Gurdjieff Movements, a site that sells books, CD's, DVD's, etc., and FourthWay Info, a site that lists a lot of groups that nobody verified if they are connected to Gurdjieff (anybody can add a group) and makes money with Google ads at the bottom. Both sites were developed by the same people. Mario Fantoni 02:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

criticising Ciriticism

"These claims by Gurdjieff have been interpreted by many to be a total disregard for the value of mainstream religion, philanthropic work, and the value of doing right or wrong in general." Let's not guise our personal attacks so obviously.

Can you clarify please? Aeuio 22:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Ditto to Aeuio --Moon Rising 23:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


Did Gurdjieff establish Foundations?

There is no proof whatsoever about G.I. Gurdjieff having established the Foundations during his lifetime. Neither during the lifetime of Jeanne de Salzmann, Gurdjieff's closest pupil, nor during the lifetime of her and Gurdjieff's son Michel de Salzmann did either mention this.

Iramsamkeep 11:55, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Not really sure how "Gurdjieff appointed Pentland to lead the work in America" would fit in your explanation. Aeuio 12:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
To keep the personal debate down, I copy/pasted info from a website. MoonEagle 12:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Shure you're not shure: Gurdjieff did not appoint Pentland to lead the work in America, he appointed him to "literary executor" for North America. Quite a difference. This was in spring 1949.
See: 1949 spring: Announcing Beelzebub's imminent publication, G. nominates three literary executors (J. G. Bennett, Lord Pentland, and René Zuber). He sails for France (Feb.) in Queen Mary with large entourage (including Iovanna Lloyd Wright).
Source: Gurdjeff.org
Iramsamkeep 13:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

What of James Moore biography, p. 304. - do you assert he was in error? Ericbarnhill 14:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

James Moore writes about Pentland being appointed to publish Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson. Difference to being appointed to LEAD HIS WORK in USA. Bennett writes in Witness (page 254) of Gurdjieff APPOINTING REPRESENTATIVES. Moore is secondary source, it is better to study accounts of pupils who witnessed what was said. See also "Letter January 13th, 1949", dictaded by Gurdjieff to Bennett in Child's in Paris: "I need three representatives for France, England and America." He named Bennett for England, Lord Pentland for America and R. Zuber for France. To Wim Nyland he said: "For you I have special task". (Iramsamkeep, 10 June 2007)

+ Same source Iramsamkeep provided [3] also says "Gurdjieff then appointed him to lead the Work in North America." Aeuio 23:51, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Makes this secondary source not reliable then, better check in primary sources. I know a person who was there when Gurdjieff appointed these four (Nyland being #4) (Iramsamkeep, 10 June 2007)
Whoever you are, you didn't sign your post with 4 tildes..but yes there is an account of this same meeting in one of the student memoirs. You may know that particular student, it slips my mind who it was. In any case if a major biographer asserts this, that's a solid source and it's Iramsamkeep's job to make his case for the contrary. Ericbarnhill 11:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Cannot insert tildes now. Added my signature in brackets. There is nothing to make contrary as Moore's words are clear and proof my point. Read p. 304 again. It is as I stated. James Moore writes about Pentland 'being appointed to publish' Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson. A publisher is not the leader, he is a publisher. The Gurdjieff Foundation was established 1953 in New York and he became president. Thats a difference. Are you a believer or do you verify? Neither J.de Salzmann nor her son Michel spoke ever about Gurdjieff appointing anybody as his follower. Don't you think he was clever enough to see what this might lead to? Iramsamkeep 16:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Attack me all you want Iramsamkeep, I just want you to justify your position with sources. My book is not here but 304 says something to the effect of Pentland being appointed to lead the work in America. Anyway, I think the language in the links section, assuming that was your change, is excellent and have no problem with it. Nor has anyone changed it back. So I don't know why you're pushing this argument with me exactly. To the extent you continue to make constructive changes to the page they will be welcome by all. To whatever extent you want to engage me personally, I will ignore you. I hope you will bring your knowledge of source & history to help us make a better page. Ericbarnhill 19:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Do you feel attacked? Why? There is always this aspect of verification. Verification is not just reading in books but more. Whatever you understand by being 'engaged by others personally': it is you yourself who engages: personally or essentially! Ignorance is the easy way out. I take accounts written by people who attended personally that bit more serious than accounts written by people who heard such and such, no matter how important they might see themselves. Go on reading at least until p. 306 of Moore's book but with a grain of salt. If you subtract your opionion and read less influenced you might find within these pages 'not an answer but maybe more questions'.
P.304 is Moores personal interpretation, p. 306 are the same words as in Bennetts book witness: 'literary executors'. But expand your attention towards the colours he's using towards Bennett. He is very manipulative. Best example later on when he actually lies about Bennett's past. He knew he was lying but couldn't stop. Few years ago he even apologized to Bennett's sons for doing so. But never in public (yet).


Let us now have a closer look into Irmis Popoff's book 'Gurdjieff Group Work with Wilhem Nyland':
p.3: 'As I understood Mr. Nyland to say, it was at an organizational meeting called by Mr. Gurdjieff shortly before he departed for Paris, never to return, that several persons where given special tasks representing the Work, among them: Lord Pentland, representative in the Americas and Canada; M. Zuber, representative in France; J.G. Bennett, representative in England; and Mme de Salzmann, general groups representative. But pointing to Mr. Nyland, Mr. Gurdjieff said, '"For this man I say nothing, because he will have to do very important work for me later on."' My personal opinion is what I hinted at with #4. No question about Mme de Salzmann. Pentland, Bennett and Zuber where still young, had potential, where "men of the world" as well. But as much as Bennett moved away from the work for some time, so did Pentland when removing Nyland from the Foundations. He gave way for a club for a short time. Source
Nyland charged nothing at all (Did you read GURDJIEFF: A MASTER IN LIFE by Tcheslaw Tchekhovitch for comparing, how Gurdjieff himself dealt with money and poor people?)
Accounts are different and things changed. But there is no place to discredit people in the wrong way (Bennett, maybe even Patterson) nor leave some out (Nyland, Tracol, Heap, Staveley, March, Zuber, among others) and place others in some sort of secretative hierarchy. Iramsamkeep 08:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Alright, let's calm down here - if one of you has a problem with the current wording then comment here, otherwise if you want to continue this discussion then do it on your talk pages. Aeuio 19:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

New content

I added some new content. Have at it. :) Ericbarnhill 18:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I finally fully read this and can surely say that this will turn out a lot better. I'll be back later tonight to edit Gurdjieff article again. Thanks Eric Aeuio 21:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

History

Since we are rewritting here, how about changing the "travelling dated history" to a more general history where it is explained where and when Gurdjieff met different pupils and what happened. That gurdjieff.org source up there is more than enough for this kind of change. I think it be better and more interesting than simply saying where he was and when. MoonEagle 22:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point, I expanded a bit - and it already sounds somewhat better and more interesting. Aeuio 11:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
This is looking much better! Verbs should all be the same tense though. I am sorting out my thoughts on the "ideas" section but will notify editors about a draft before any editing. One problem is how much overlap to have with the Fourth Way page. The same question arises for Beelzebub's Tales - how much to put on this page and how much to put on the other page. Ericbarnhill 02:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that here there should be an overview of the info from other main page - such as the Fourth Way. Concerning BT, it's too soon to tell how this will turn out. Aeuio 02:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
O and the page is getting much better!Aeuio 02:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I see these two concerns as related. I think it would be great to have an "ideas" section that references Beelzebub frequently, and leave the Ouspensky quotes more for the other page. I'll try to put that into my draft when I get to it. Ericbarnhill 21:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Templates

Ok, we have the artist template (currently in the article) and the philosophy template. Is there anyone that prefers one over the other? Aeuio 12:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

There is Religious leaders as well (not very suitable in my view). The main drawback of the Philosopher template is that you have to assign a region, and only four are available: Eastern, Jewish, Persian and Western. Since this is the top field, it looks odd if you leave that blank. Now Gurdjieff is difficult to assign; his mentions of Nassr Eddin (= Mullah Nasrudin) and Bogga Eddin (= Baha'uddin Naqshband) would suggest Persian (= sufic), but then he is also distinctly Western in his terminology. He mentions Christian sources as much as Indian fakirs etc. So I would be unhappy to see him restricted to any one regional category. To me, that is the main drawback of the Philosopher template; otherwise, it looks ideal. Perhaps we should take it up with the makers of that template? Jayen466 13:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The link to the religious leaders template above was wrong, have now fixed it. Jayen466 13:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Jayen, are the mentioned four types of regions "the only ones acceptable on wikipedia"? If not then I have a wierd idea. See MoonEagle. What do you think of the region? Or, we can write something more suitable if there is conflict- you can write anything in there. MoonEagle 20:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the instructions on the template page, those four are the options to be used. They tie in with categories. As you say, you can write anything in there and it will show up on screen, but there won't be a corresponding category. And I still find it difficult to think of something meaningful to put that is not restrictive and squeezes the man into some box he doesn't belong in. It's kind of daft to put something just for the sake of putting something. What attracts me a little about the Philosopher template, on the other hand, is the possibility to enter "Notable ideas" (e.g. self-remembering), and "Main interests". And the use of the Artist template also does not link with any category here. Its only advantage is that you can have the name at the top, without having to invent some contrived category, and that you can list "famous works" -- the Philosopher template does not allow for that. Also, listing famous works is a lot less likely to cause disputes than listing "notable ideas". Cheers, Jayen466 21:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that ME's suggestion is very good and agree to it. esoteric (read first paragraph) would fit pretty well in here. Concerning "notable ideas" I would just put Fourth Way there. While Gurdjieff's books are mentioned at two or three places and is linked throughout the article, so I don't think that it's a big deal whether or no it's in the template. Aeuio 23:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I just put the philosophy template up (It could be a lot better - I didn't put much effort or detail in case everyone rejects) What do you think? Aeuio 23:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I've moved him from the age of enlightenment into the 20th century. Hmmm ... am still not convinced by Esoteric Philosophy. :-)) It's just not an established term with an agreed meaning. I like the "influenced by Mullah Nassr Eddin" bit though. :-)) I guess my problem is that I see Gurdjieff as a mystic, not a philosopher. There is a difference. More centres involved. ;-) Jayen466 00:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
O, I defiantly agree to mysticism over philosophy, I just wasn't sure if that template is allowed to say mystic instead of philosopher. Is it? Anyhow do you think this template could be made better than the artist one? If so, then I'll upgrade the info in the template to be more accurate and precise. Aeuio 00:54, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

How does everyone feel about that last edit? (removal of list of books and dvds)

Eh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeago (talk • contribs) 06:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Page looks clearer to me. Aeuio 15:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Pupils section

I am wondering if this article needs a Pupils section. Gurdjieff seems to have had a lot of direct pupils, some of noteriety. How should we deal with them?

The latest addition of the Finnish Psychologist is probably not noteworthy but still an interesting inclusion as an item in a list.

Of course, there are all those book-publishing pupils who are dying to get their name in his article. What to do?Yeago (talk) 05:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I created a starter page in my namespace. Please add notable pupils to User:Yeago/List of Gurdjieff pupils —Preceding comment was added at 05:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

His origins.

Re Gurdjeff's origins: have a look at affined bibliography (such as here or The Gurdjieff Foundation) before deleting stuff.

Karnak, please join the discussion. This is a point of common confusion and edit-warring doesn't help.Yeago (talk) 15:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

A few quotes taken from Gurdjieff's book Meetings with Remarkable Men (Arkana, 1960. ISBN 0140190376) regarding his origins:

  • My father came of a Greek family whose ancestors had emigrated from Byzantium, having left their country to escape the persecution by the Turks which followed their conquest of Constantinople. (p.40)
  • Having settled in Kars, my father first sent me to the Greek school, but very soon transferred me to the Russian municipal school. (p.42)
  • In Alexandropol I had a friend named Fatinov. He had a friend, Gorbakoun, the son of a company commander in the Baku regiment, which was stationed not far from the Greek quarter. [where obviously G. lived] (p.63)
  • It should be mentioned that from the age of eight, owing to chance circumstances, my friends in Alexandropol as well as in Kars were much older than I and belonged to families who were considered socially higher than mine. In the Greek part of Alexandropol, where my parents formerly lived, I had no friends at all. (p.66) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.103.147.54 (talk) 17:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the citations. Karnak, who was reverting the above content, blanked invitations on his talk page to join this discussion, which leaves little choice other than outright strongarm/revert until he wants to discuss his editorial reasoning.Yeago (talk) 00:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Biographical material from Moore

I suggest we should gently and judiciously rephrase parts of the biography; at present, some passages lean too closely on Moore's chronology (merely substituting past tense for historical present). Jayen466 00:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Really? Terrific. Then simply blockquote him. If you see material that constitutes as a source, please tag it as such. It would not be so much copyvio as merely misleading to present the perspective of one biographer as encyclopaedic.Yeago (talk) 01:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The source is here; the content of that page is a straight lift from the Chronology in Moore's book. I've done a little bit of rewording in the para that bore the greatest resemblance to Moore, hopefully without doing harm to its readability. I guess we could add citations to Moore's book. Cheers, Jayen466 01:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The plain fact is that its not a copywrite vio if its sourced. Lifting the material and putting it here without a source is just journalistically irresponsible. Anyway, thanks for noticing and doing the legwork.Yeago (talk) 05:28, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

This article is about a mystic named G.I. Gurdjieff. All content in this article must be notably related to him. All links must be directly related to him, as there are too many derivatives to chronicle here. Without a clear boundary, all claimants of the Gurdjieff Tradition have a causeway to place their links here (and there are MANY).

This is one of the most linkspammed articles I watch. While I cannot say that your sources are non-notable and don't belong on Wikipedia, I can say that 95% of links added here are not notable to G.I. Gurdjieff and do not belong in his specific article. Please feel free to create separate topical articles that meet regular WP guidelines and add those links there.Yeago (talk) 09:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Paneurhythmy/Bogomilism etc.

These references should be removed. They are sourced, but the source contains no information about them. It is a brochure for some new-age conference that definitely doesn't mention Gurdjieff and doesn't seem to mention Paneurhythmy either. I'd add personally that I've looked at paneurhythmy videos on YouTube and they look nothing whatsoever like Gurdjieff movements. These references should be removed for irrelevancy. Ericbarnhill (talk) 00:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Do it.Yeago (talk) 00:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Did it. I also rearranged some of the information in "groups". Ravindra is in the line of Gurdjieff pupils and affiliated with the Foundations, while Patterson had very limited study at the Fdn and founded a breakaway group. So, I didn't think they should be in the same paragraph. Ravindra is in with the Fdns and Patterson is in with the independents. Ericbarnhill (talk) 11:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Cruithne must be worth mentioning?

Hi all. In Beelzebub, Gurdjieff mentions Earth's second moon, that it IS there, that scientists currently do not know about it. That was in the 1930's. Some 70 years later modern science found this moon, now called Cruithne. Knowledge of this moon via the science at the time was impossible, so this seems to me to be the best evidence that Gurdjieff wasn't just a mystic or charleton. Everything else can be dismissed by scientists as pseodoscience or worse, but not Cruithne. So surely it is worth mentioning? Or have I missed something obvious, if so sorry and you can delete this post :) blucat david 6:00am, 8 June 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.142.12.109 (talk) 19:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Page numbers? Quotes?Yeago (talk) 01:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The problem with Cruithne is connecting it to Gurdjieff via some sort of publication. If you know of a place where an author has suggested this connection, then you can add it to the article as "So and so has suggested that Cruithne is the second moon that Gurdjieff was talking about" ; or something along those lines. Or even better would be if you know a place where Gurdjieff was documented as describing the second moon in a way which could be linked to Cruithne. Otherwise, Cruithne shouldn't be mentioned as another editor could very well say that 2002 AA29 is the second moon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benzema (talk • contribs) 16:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
From the Cruithne page: "Due to its unusual orbit relative to that of the Earth, it is a periodic inclusion planetoid and is sometimes called Earth's second moon,[2] although it orbits the Sun, not the Earth." So its not a moon, but what is the point here anyway? Are you saying Gurdjieff knew about Cruithne via some other means? Or should we think that its existence was communicated to him by God? Or maybe he didnt know about it specifically, but meant it metaphorically, as in keep looking and you might find something important even if its not what your expected. Since he consdiders Nasreddin his teacher, i am inclined to think the latter. Kotika98 (talk) 10:13, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
Umm, I thought it was pretty well wrapped up by the excellent reply by Benzema. But just to try to address your comments: No, GIG specifically said that his teachings weren't 'communicated to him by God', but were handed down through thousands of years through underground sources, which he was smart and lucky and dilligent enough to find. So yes, he did know about it by other means. Also, it wasn't in the least bit metaphorical, as there is a chapter in "Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson' titled, "Earths Second Moon', in which he says there is a 'Second Moon', but it is not known to current science because their telescopes are not powerful enough to find it, and tales of it were not handed down to them in their 'bedtime stories', and due to it's unusual orbit and small size it is unlikely that they will ever know about it. Anyway, now that we've found 2002 AA29, I withdraw my specific comment about Cruithne as it seems to be a lesser candidate for the 'second moon', and we are likely to find more such objects as well. blucat - david
Original research, sorry people.Yeago (talk) 02:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Useful source

Thank you very much.Yeago (talk) 07:16, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Greek Name

Whats the source for the greek name? Did Gurdjieff ever use this name himself? Ii find this translation of his name to greek as "Georgiadis" abit improbable. Kotika98 (talk) 09:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC) Added: Somewhere the article should mention that the name Gurdjieff may not, and most likely not his birth name. If thats the case, Georgiadis sounds more plausible, as it is an actually common name from the region. Any expert opinions? Kotika98 (talk) 15:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

It may just be that some Wikipedia editor has seen that he was of partial Greek descent and thought that alone justifies having his name rendered in Greek. I don't know how common it was for Greeks in the interior of the Caucasus region to still use Greek in everyday usage, or whether Greek names were used in birth certificates, baptisms, school registers, etc. There was a Greek book published - in the 1990s (I think) - about the Greek community in Kars which might contain such information. Meowy 14:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
The question is not whether Greek was used by Greeks in the region, but whether "Georgiadis" is authentic or not. If that were the name by which he was known in modern greece, then the name would not be wrong but it would not be useful to include it on the english page. If that were his name at birth, we should include it and emphasize the fact. However, I have checked that the greek language article says "Γεώργιος Γκουρτζίεφ", so i will delete the greek as well as armenian spellings. Kotika98 (talk) 16:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Music

Not enough is mentioned about his music. Some expert guidance is needed on the issue of whether it is his music, or one should consider Hartmann as the true composer of this pieces. In any case, unlike occult philosophies, the music is actually good - in recent years a string of notable performers have recorded the music. Jarrett, Tsabropoulos/Lehner and Cecyl Lyttle recordings are all works of sublime beauty. Kotika98 (talk) 18:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

George or Georges?

Apologies if this has been discussed before, but I thought his name was usually given in English as "Georges" rather than "George". What are the reasons for using "George" in this article? Thanks. Afterwriting (talk) 16:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Publications in English normally use "G. I.," but when written out, his own books and virtually all other use "George." --Dorje714285 (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

John G. Bennett

Excuse this posting- it's not quite on topic here but this is the best place I could think of adding this notice. The lengthy biography of John G. Bennett, who wrote several book on Gurdjieff, was almost entirely copied from other websites and so it had to be cut down to a stub. Perhaps someone watching this page would be interested in writing a fresh biography.   Will Beback  talk  18:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Gurdjieff and Politics

The article seems to imlicitly deny that Gurdjieff was a Tsarist spy, and it might be right, but I think it should be mentioned that his disciple Bennet thought that he was involved in espionage in some way; and Bennet can be presumed to be cluey about these things. Gurdjieff in Meetings for Remarkable Men refers to carrying letters for underground groups and the like.

Bennet also more than other disciples emphasised the political, social side of Gurdjieff's work. However heretical this may be to some it was clearly there, and referred to in the most direct terms in his postscript to Beelzebub's Tales. Bennet compared the Gurdjieff groups to mammals in the age of dinosaurs. He is sometimes reminiscent of the ur-anarchist Proudhon (even down to the sympathy for the tile) Jeremytrewindixon 05:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Definitely an interesting direction. Do you have any sources?Yeago 14:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
You are welcome to expand the article on this subject Jeremy. Aeuio 14:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
What, explicitly, were Gurdjieff's political affiliations, positions, views? Or did he even have a political philosophy? Shanoman (talk) 18:52, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Didn't have one. Only driven statement by Gurdjieff concerning politics is that the worst kind of people are in power... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitalask (talk • contribs) 03:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

enneagram

What is the source for:

An aspect of Gurdjieff's teachings which has come into prominence in recent decades is the enneagram geometric figure. For many students of the Gurdjieff tradition, the enneagram remains a "koan", challenging and never fully explicated. Lord Pentland only allowed very limited use of the figure. There have been many attempts to trace the origins of the enneagram; some similarities to other figures have been found, but it seems that Gurdjieff was the first person to make the enneagram figure publicly known and that only he knew its true source.[citation needed]

Lord Pentland only allowed very limited use of the figure is particularly obscure William M. Connolley (talk) 17:54, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Ok, we need a new agenda for eternal links. I think the external links arguing wouldn't occur if all the "group links" are not allowed (including the Gurdjieffian Foundations). I think it's understandable that "the Foundation and its affiliates are not the sole representatives of Gurdjieff and his teaching. Wikipedia, which uses an encyclopedic format and therefore by its very format is regarded as “definitive,” creates a de facto situation by listing only Foundation links under the external links section." (the quotations are from a recent email I got concerning the external links). And I guess that we shouldn't be playing a judge here and deciding which groups to mention. The formation of groups is mentioned in "Reception" and anyone if interested would obviously do extra research - so the easiest solution for us here is simply to describe the formation of these mainly known groups in Reception and not to promote any current group in external links. Aeuio 22:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Aeuio, I've been pondering this post for a couple of days. I have not been able to figure out why you have taken the stance you have, but wanted to think about it before questioning you. I just went to the WP external links page [[4]]and found that your decision is perfectly correct! Regards, --Moon Rising 20:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
It had nothing to do with that WP page. If you'd actually believe me when I say that I am not in the Gurdjieffian Foundation it be pretty easy to get why I did that. Back when we were discussing the external links I had no problem of getting rid of all the links, but Yeago suggested to keep the Foundations. It really does seem unfair to the other groups that were also started by Gurdjieff's students. Aeuio 21:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Well then, there are 2 reasons. I think the Gurdjieff Foundations would be appropriate links for this Gurdjieff's article, but they offer no information, which violates WP policies. I personally would not have a problem to have all sorts of 4th way groups linked to the Fourth Way article, (not this one) but again, most of those links would not enhance the article, which is the purpose of links, as I understand them. And I never, ever doubted your statement that you are not part of the G Foundation. --Moon Rising 23:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Seems good to me. I suppose I thought that the Gurdjieff Foundation was started by G himself, not students. Therefore I thought it was a class above student-created groups. Either way this article is a billion times better than it used to be, and way less spammy. Could someone archive the talk page sometime soon?Yeago 05:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Love-Ark: I appreciate your help, but your reasons in your edit summary were pretty bad. Not only are they connected to the foundations, but Dushka (the lady that's putting that book together) was a student of Gurdjieff himself. I just wanted to point this out before someone asked you to explain your deletion. Aeuio 21:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been firing up Chatzilla and going to #wikipedia at freenode and alerting an admin instantly when someone spams this (and other) pages with their links (notice User:TheFourthWay's indefinite block), rather than waiting days or weeks for an admin to stumble upon them (google wikipedia irc). Its effective.Yeago 03:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a link for: * The Teachers of Gurdjieff by Rafael Lefort (probably a pen name of Idries Shah). I removed the comment about "probably a pen name of Indries Shah", because it's unsourced - see the Indries Shah article. It mentions this conjecture, but only as one man's opinion. --Moon Rising (talk) 21:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

External links should be either eliminated or include all those who have a direct connection to Gurdjieff - probably it would need a group who would make this decision - not one person - to verify direct lineage and continued fidelity to gurdjieff's school without adulteration from other traditions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.186.53.202 (talk • contribs) 14:36, 3 February 2011
Both your links added;
Fails our External links policy for inclusion. Editors make the policies here at Wikipedia, and have established community agreed upon policies which govern any contents basis for inclusion. However an upsetting pattern has appeared;
194.186.188.203 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
89.169.34.23 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
194.186.53.202 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
194.186.53.79 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
Understand that Repeatedy re- adding and adding links to multiple Articles is unacceptable. This kind of activity is considered spamming and is Also forbidden by Wikipedia policies.--Hu12 (talk) 16:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Great Job

Fairly good article on a very complex subject. Congratulations to all involved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.208.24.98 (talk) 16:13, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Criticism section: renamed

The "Criticism" section consists mainly of peoples recorded "Responses" to Gurdjieff and his teachings and writings. There is little actual criticism. To move WP towards accuracy I have renamed the section. If you change it back pls remove all the "non-Criticism" material from the section first. Or at least provide a rationale for misleading readers. 124.148.164.7 (talk) 04:08, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Another suggestion

I don't see a reference to Georgette LeBlanc's work, "La Machine a Courage," which is at : http://www.gurdjieff-bibliography.com/Current/07_leblanc_la_machine_2004-07-02.pdf and discusses her experience of working with G. in Paris. (It might, also, reading between the lines, suggest a kind of ?marriage counseling or a series of "relationship nurturance" sessions with a woman she is said to have been attached to at some levels, possibly as a partner, Margaret Anderson. Both are named in the discussion and the allusions seem to be to something new starting in her life, although they might not be explicitly relational, too.96.233.98.79 (talk) 05:20, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Nasreddin as Gurdjieff's teacher?

Hello there. I've been doing extensive work to Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'. I came across a few interesting passages. Among them is a quote by Gurdjieff where he says "...in the style of my former teacher, now almost a Saint, Mullah Nassr Eddin...". There are a number of ways this sentance could be read, some forgiving or apologistic of the idea that Gurdjieff claims to have been taught by Mullah Nassr Eddin, but I read it literally.

Is there another 'Mullah Nassr Eddin' that was alive in the 19th century? Was the historicity of 'Mullah Nassr Eddin' unclearly unknown in the 19th century?

Thanks. Also, I invite anyone who is interested to come help me work on the Life Is Real... article.Yeago (talk) 16:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that he meant it literally; more along the lines as if he was taught by Mullah Nassr Eddin's wise sayings. There's probably some symbolic meaning to the referral to Mullah Nassr Eddin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benzema (talk • contribs) 16:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
"Some symbolic meaning..."—rather vague. He says both 'my former teacher, now almost a Saint...' and I really don't think there can be any explaining away these two contemporary references to the Mullah. Anyone else?Yeago (talk) 20:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The statement matches the statements made in *Beelzebub*, ex. '...now almost an archangel...', and Nasreddin is a somewhat mythical figure to whom conventional wisdom is ascribed. I doubt it is intended to be interpreted as him actually knowing the guy. 108.83.178.154 (talk) 02:42, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Haha, this is kindof consistent with the opinion that Gurdjieff was just kidding people. He is probably laughing in his grave about people still taking him seriously. Ok, even if you dont agree, I assure you that he could have called Nasreddin a teacher only in a comic way.
Waiting for some elaboration on the punchline's meaning, oh wise one.Yeago (talk) 07:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
By this I mean this greater notion you espouse, 'the opinion that gurdjieff was just kidding people'. If its a legitimate perspective, it belongs here.Yeago (talk) 07:06, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think this comes very close to the heart of the question of what exactly Gurdjiev represents. It seems to me that he was indeed kidding people, but all the while trying to teach some point. Same as Nasreddin. What I never understood, though, what that point might be exactly. Maybe both of them were really just trying to wake up people from the everyday complacency. Kotika98 (talk) 11:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Criticism section

I've recently read the last chapter in James Webb's biography "The Harmonious Circle", titled of masters and men where he sums up Alan Watts' criticism of guru-organizations. I think this is a very good criticism of the Gurdjieff work and Gurdjieffs projects and it also includes the current argument under the criticism section. I do not now to which extent this book is available among you - but if some of you could read this section and see if you agree with me? Could a summary of the main points here (1, 2 and 3) be a good thing for the article? Or maybe it should be sorted under the fourth way article? --PeterKristo (talk) 11:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


The 3rd paragraph under "Responses" states that "Critics note Gurdjieff gives no value to most of the elements that comprise the life of an average man." Wouldn't many of his students and admirers agree? If others agree, the word "critics" should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.166.173 (talk) 13:22, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

meaning in juxtaposed sentences?

"In 1919, Gurdjieff established his first Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man. He was thought[by whom?] to be greatly influenced by Niko Marr, a Georgian archaeologist and historian.[citation needed]"

Was GIG influenced in the setting up and/or the naming of the institute by Niko Marr?
Or is this just poor layout or bad editting - an unsourced claim, misplaced and productive of confusion? 124.148.164.7 (talk) 02:18, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
"Niko Marr" will be Nikolai Marr. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.64.242.27 (talk) 03:01, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'#Consensus check

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Multiple issues tag

The article had a multiple issues tag, the tag claiming content "may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject" and "may be written from a fan's point of view". However, there is no associated discussion on this talk page that would explain what content this tag concerns. If editors are not told of what problems might exist with the article, how are those problems meant to be addressed? Also, there does there seem to be any recent talk page discussion that indicates a problem that would justify the article being tagged in this way. For that reason, I find the tag to be not productive or justifiable, and I have deleted it. If another editor wants to restore the tagging, would they explain exactly what content issues support the tagging. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:52, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Just use more secondary sources.FourLights (talk) 00:07, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

composer

I have no knowledge of Gurdjieff being an influential composer, as stated in the introduction. He was a composer, but I don't know that he was influential in it. I had added a source saying he was influential in the other things, but my source says nothing about him being an influential composer. Therefore I removed composer. But someone has added it back.FourLights (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Some suggestions for content

I've just reviewed this page and came up with a number of suggestions for content. I thought I would post them here in a series of bullets -- assuming I can figure out how to make them -- and if editors are cool with it, I think I could put in some work on them next week.

  • Fourth Way versus Gurdjieff Work. I don't think the highlighting of the term Fourth Way as opposed to Gurdjieff Work is historically appropriate. Gurdjieff only used that term very early and sources don't mention it after he left Russia. By the time of the talk replicated verbatim by Stanley Nott in "Teachings" which represents the 20s, or the talk "From the Author" in Beelzebub, the term is no longer being used. Nor is the term present in the rest of All and Everything. The term Fourth Way is really better associated with Ouspensky, who made the concept central to his teaching to the end of his life. I propose changing the relevant passage in the topic sentence to "Gurdjieff Work or Fourth Way", and perhaps opening the section on ideas/teachings with a brief paragraph on nomenclature that mentions the different ways Gurdjieff referred to his teaching.
Beautifully said. Aeuio 17:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Teachings - I have two proposals for this section. First, Gurdjieff is I think as noteworthy for the plurality of his offerings as their content. Gurdjieff brought music, movements, exercises, and methods for group work as well as ideas, and based on memoirs of his students, it's not clear he privileged the ideas above the rest. So I wonder if a category like "The Gurdjieff Work"(?) isn't more appropriate. If desired, a separate "ideas" section could sit next to a section that enumerated the various Gurdjieff materials.
  • Components of the work - I would divide the Gurdjieff materials into the following categories: Group Work, Writings, Movements, and Music. Music falls into three broad historical periods, only one of which involves de Hartmann, and I'd be happy to enumerate those in an edit. Movements perhaps fall best into four categories: the Obligatories, the 39, the ethnic dances and the rest, and perhaps each of those warrants a sentence. Writings would list the early writings, pupil notes including "In search", meeting transcripts and talks collected after Gurdjieff's death, and of course the privileged role of All and Everything. Group work, if other editors agree it's worth a header of its own, could list the innovative ways Gurdjieff brought people together: weekends and work periods of intensive labor, group meetings, discussions, performances and elaborate meals. I think he did that innovatively so it's worth including in the entry but other editors may feel differently.
  • The ideas themselves - the "teachings" section is a bit of a hodgepodge. I might structure the most salient Gurdjieff ideas into the following small categories: "Sleep, Self-Observation & Self Remembering"; "Struggle, Friction and Effort"; "Groups and Schools"; "Centers and Functions"; "Metaphysics" e.g. law of 3 and 7;, and "Cosmology". I throw it open to the editors if this is a good way to break it down, how long it should be, and how to organize it. I would be happy to write up this copy if I have a chance next week.
  • Sourcing the Gurdjieff ideas - I have a recommendation for sourcing. The standard sources are often "In Search of the Miraculous" and "Beelzebub's Tales". However, neither of these is really optimal. While Gurdjieff accepted Ouspensky's book, he was equivocal on many things and it bears a lot of Ouspensky's footprint. Beelzebub on the other hand is literary allegory. I think better sources for the Gurdjieff ideas are collected talks, like the "From the Author" in Beelzebub, the talks in the Third Series, the Orage talk in Stanley Nott's book, the collection "Views from the Real World", and the wartime meetings in "Voices in the Dark". If other editors are interested I can try to source a section on the ideas based primarily on those records of what Gurdjieff actually said.
I would object here with this sourcing. Many accounts of Gurdjieff teaching are from personal lectures which Gurdjieff taught to individual students or groups. His teaching may differ as presented by him from student to student, as he might have altered it to suit a specific group. But Belzeebub's tales was Gurdjieff putting his ideas for the public and everyone in general. It would therefore be a lot more reasonable to use BT as a primary source for Gurdjieff's teaching, and other accounts as back up and for diversity of the teaching. MoonEagle 22:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Criticism - this seems really written off the cuff. Good sources would be the "Forest Philosophers" article that brought Gurdjieff notoriety in Paris, as well as the media hullaballoo accompanying the death of Katherine Mansfield. James Webb's biography also ends with an exceedingly negative take on Gurdjieff and his students.
  • Reception - Gurdjieff's ideas have propagated in a lot of different ways that I think warrant interest. Some things that could be included include the new biographies of Licoln Kirstein, head of the School of American Ballet, and architect Frank Lloyd Wright, both of whom had extensive involvement with Gurdjieff and the work. Authentic or not, the many colorful claims made by people after Gurdjieff who claimed to be in touch with his sources are also part of his legacy, like Collin and Ichazo.
  • Last, the history strikes me as out of balance. Gurdjieff as a spy or watching the dervishes are both factual but don't strike me as significant in the broader arc. If we keep it bare-bones I'm not sure they should be in there. If editors are interested in a little more detail, I would add other details instead and would be happy to offer suggestions.

Sorry this is so long, but I just had a rush of ideas on this page for some reason and I hope you like them. Ericbarnhill 16:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Pretty good suggestions - I agree with all of it and I think that it would make a better page. (the first bullet was the best). Aeuio 17:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I started some editing and I thought I'd have more time, but I got to go (I'll continue tomorrow). Sorry to leave the article in this situation - Eric please continue what I started as soon as you can. I deleted some repeated info so that you can add some new ones Aeuio 02:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Make sure that its clear that his teachings were all based around the "spiritual teachings" - he didn't teach sacred dances for the purpose of dancing. MoonEagle 12:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Aeuio, I said next week and I meant it! :) I won't have time to do a worthwhile job with much of this until a week from now. Editors uncomfortable with the floating headings should just cut them for now. MoonEagle, neither I nor any other editor should be having a discussion about Gurdjieff's "purposes", to use your word. This is an encyclopedia talk page not a discussion forum. Our job should be to enumerate what Gurdjieff did as sourced on the historical record not speculate about his purposes. Your vague objection to something that hasn't happened yet makes me nervous. Thanks for contributing and I hope you'll continue to give your opinion as we add some content. Ericbarnhill 19:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, the best I can do is ten minutes here and there so I will leave it till I have more time. Aeuio 19:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Eric: I wasn't trying to discuss anything, I was just stating that be very wrong if the Dances or Music are presented independently from the spiritual teachings, as if there wasn't much connection with them. But as you said it's too early to comment on this (but currently that's where your sugggestions lead up to) - anyhow, we'll see when it's written. MoonEagle 00:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

My comment to you was inappropriately aggresive. Apologies and I will bow out of posting here until I have the time to think about what I'm writing before posting. Thanks for the feedback and your opinions on the section will be welcome when I add it. Ericbarnhill 00:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi - Somebody mentioned about having a section on 'The G Work' (maybe instead of 'ideas?') - sounds good. What I believe is one of the G work's key *practical* ideas/methods is sensation of the body. This does not seem to be mentioned anywhere in this article or the discussion. It is this emphasis on sensation which i believe distinguishes the G teaching from any other similar 'way'. thanks, cuyocksol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.172.247 (talk) 15:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The character of Dr Gambit in The Hearing Trumpet by Leonora Carrington is evidently a satire on Gurdjieff. Ali Smith says as much in her introduction to the Penguin Modern classics edition (2005) and I agree with her analysis, having read the novel, and knowing something of Gurdjieff's ideas via the works of Colin Wilson. I have no idea if Carrington ever met Gurdjieff - perhaps Aberth's biography says something about it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plimfix (talk • contribs) 09:43, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

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Group work/drug abuse

The section supposedly about group work, is an endless rant about how various people, most of them unrelated to Gurdjieff abused LSD - a drug invented long after Gurdjieff death in 1949. This situation invites quick deletion, unless some rationale is forthcoming. AFAIK, Guerdjieff himself nor his groups were never known for drug abuse. Kotika98 (talk) 18:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

[I am unskilled at finding, if possible, the history of deleted passages. I will now simply point out that the reference to the dates of synthesis of LSD are grossly inaccurate, an error that makes me question the competence of the writer. The wikipedia article documents the dates of its history, first synthesized in 1938, properties stumbled upon 1943, released as a drug for use in psychotherapy 1947. This at least makes it possible for it to be investigated before G died. Wiki mn (talk) 05:13, 29 December 2017 (UTC)]

I totally agree with this view. A lot has been thrown into this article that is peripheral at best. The material on Huxley is not even factual, much less relevant. (He was not introduced to mescaline by Crowley -- refer to book "Moksha" for this.) More to the point, Crowley is not even relevant enough for a footnote here, much less a section of the article. That represents someone's very biased interest in something besides the topic. (User: Dorje714285 -- my first post; will work on my formatting] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorje714285 (talk • contribs) 18:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I deleted the section "group work". The point of that section is that Gurdjieff emphasized groups rather than individual methods. This should be covered in the article Fourth Way, it doesn't even belong here. More importantly however from what I can see is that that section was there only to make Gurdjieff and his groups look like drug abusers. And it's filled with false statements. If you have a source for supporting that nonsense then add it to the criticism section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitalask (talk • contribs) 15:10, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Circular Redirect

When the page for the book Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am' was deleted the link was turned into a redirect to a section of this article. The link within this section was a redirect to itself, which was not only useless, but confusing. This link has been removed ("de-linkified"), and the redirect target is supported by an Anchor template.
It would be better IMHO if there was a page to support this book, but as noted, it has been previously deleted.
XyKyWyKy aka raffriff42 (talk) 13:53, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Contemporary lead sentence

Influential in humanities search for understanding self-knowledge (today).cited and referenced.Arnlodg (talk) 17:50, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Referenced "The Gurdjieff Foundation New York" to lead; Arnlodg (talk) 23:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Müller?

I'm not seeing where in the citation given that Gurdjieff was influenced by Müller, but that Gurdjieff's student Ouspensky was.

Quote from source: "P. D. Ouspensky, a Russian former Theosophist and follower of the Greco-Armenian thaumaturge G. I. Gurdjieff, was inspired by Müller's lectures on theosophy in the formulation of his own mystical system."

The commas would indicate that the sentence means Ouspensky was both:
-"a Russian former Theosophist and follower of the Greco-Armenian thaumaturge G. I. Gurdjieff,"
-"...inspired by Müller's lectures on theosophy in the formulation of his own mystical system."

I'll be removing that bit from the "influences" section. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

The "Russian" question revisited

Whether Gurdjieff should be referred to as Russian has been brought up on here before but I think it needs more clarification in the article. While it is true that many sources refer to Gurdjieff as being Russian, in my view this is misleading even if, arguably, this was technically correct at the time of his birth (but it wouldn't be now). The extent to which Gurdjieff can be considered "Russian" is questionable as, both culturally and ethnically, he was mostly Armenian and in my opinion he is more correctly an Armenian than a Russian. I strongly suggest that this needs to be more adequately clarified in the article. As with articles on some other people whose nationality is complicated for historical and personal reasons, I suggest that his nationality is not mentioned in the opening sentence but the issues regarding this are mentioned further on in the article. Ontologicos (talk) 18:19, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Can we get a conversation going on how Gurdjieff's last name is pronounced?

...and if there is a consensus of opinion, add that to the first paragraph using plain English, dividing the name into syllables and using an accent mark to put emphasis on the dominant syllable? Most Americans familiar with the name say "Gur-jeff," and I don't think that's quite right. It looks like three syllables to me. But I will go with the consensus. Thanks. 2600:8801:BE24:1A00:2D1A:5328:950:E44B (talk) 02:11, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@2600:8801:BE24:1A00:2D1A:5328:950:E44B I have always heard it pronounced Grrr-gee-eff (with1st syllable accented). Blainster (talk) 02:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
(which is also how the IPA pronunciation has it) Blainster (talk) 02:32, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Svetlana Hinzenberg

§ Children had the following at the bottom, after the bulleted list:

Clarification: Svetlana Hinzenberg – b. Sept. 27, 1917, d. Sept. 30, 1946 Mother: Olga (Olgivanna) Ianovna Lazovich, Father (of Record): Valdemar Hinzenberg. "In the winter of 1919, humoring a friend, she (Olgivanna) left her apartment to see a visiting Armenian-born mystic, a man who was said to teach dances that could develop the will. She was, she recalled, "looking for something beyond the limits of my senses." Friedland & Zellman: "The Fellowship: The Untold Story of Frank Lloyd Wright & The Taliesin Fellowship." HarperCollins, 2006. page 18, citing OLW, Autobiography.

Obviously this belongs in a reference, not the main text, and I've moved it to one, but I can't check it in the source. And the cited grand-source, "OLW, Autobiography", only makes sense as a typo for "FLW, Autobiography"; that would be An autobiography: Frank Lloyd Wright, originally published in 1932 by Longmans, Green and Company (Worldcat). --Thnidu (talk) 23:05, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

@Thnidu The year of Svetlana's birth, 1917, is two years before her mother met Gurdjieff, precluding the possibility of her being a child of Gurdjieff. Also the fact that she remained with her father Hinzenberg when Olga left them. Blainster (talk) 05:47, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
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