Talk:Gentile/Archives/2021/February

Proposal to merge entry for "Goy" with this page

Below is an edited discussion from the Talk page for Goy which concludes that "goy" should be merged into this page

TLDR: This page ("goy") breaches policy WP:NOT#DICDEF and should be put forward for deletion.

I've been reading https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary#Good_definitions

This article focuses on definitions of this word "goy" in Hebrew and Yiddish, implying that the word has the same meaning in English. As the "Wikipedia is not a dictionary" guidance makes clear, an encyclopedia entry should discuss the concept, not just provide a defintion.

The article says that in current Hebrew, Yiddish and - it is implied - English, "goy" means "gentile" and there is already a page for "gentile" in English Wikipedia. Hebrew and Yiddish Wikipedias presumably have pages for the same concept in their languages.

There may be something interesting about "goy" as a concept in English that is different from "gentile" which could be discussed in an article but that is not currently expressed in this article. And goy/goyim may have an interesting and rich history in Hebrew/Yiddish, but virtually every word we use in English has a rich history in some predecessor language - that in itself cannot justify the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atrapalhado (talk • contribs) 23:08, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• Propose

Aren't these all reasons to merge the article with "gentile" rather than delete it? I think the interesting concept here is the idea of nations in Judaism. Perhaps "goy" could be a subsection under "gentile" explaining how Biblical nations came to delineate Jews vs Non Jews in the modern day Pereneph (talk) 20:44, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Seconded. I also keep trying to change the article to note it is not used pejoratively, and a user has threatened to ban me for it. I speak Hebrew and Yiddish, and its the word for gentile. It doesn't carry any bad connotations, but whenever I try to change it this is overturned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ari9999999 (talk • contribs) 00:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Thirded - I am happy to withdraw my proposal that the page be deleted in favour of merging "goy" with "gentile" Atrapalhado (talk) 20:30, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Atrapalhado (talk) 20:09, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose

As I already explained in the talk page for ''goy'', "Gentile" is only ONE of the possible meanings of the Biblical Hebrew word goy. The word has taken many different meanings throughout history, since it was first translated into Greek in the Septuagint. The page Goy as it is surveys these different meaning, and it is a completely different page from this one (Gentile), which is only ONE of the different possible meanings. The two pages are already interlinked properly, and there is no reason to merge them, since they are really two completely different and independent pages. warshy ^(¥¥) 20:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Response to opposing argument Thanks for this response. I'd make two arguments: 1) isnt the history of the concept of "gentile" the same as the history of the evolution of the meaning of the word "goy" - as Preneph says above "I think the interesting concept here is the idea of nations in Judaism. Perhaps "goy" could be a subsection under "gentile" explaining how Biblical nations came to delineate Jews vs Non Jews in the modern day." 2) I don't think the English Wikipedia entry for "goy" can be about the meaning of a hebrew word. If "goy" deserves a page at all on English Wikipedia it should be about the meaning of the word as used in English, and in English, goy means "gentile". (or would you argue every word in Biblical Hebrew should have an entry in English Wikipedia?) Atrapalhado (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

If goy has multiple other meanings, an entry explaining them should be valid. Dimadick (talk) 11:57, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose The word "goy" is not only identical with "Gentile", since it has the meaning of "nation" as well. Another reason to oppose the merge is because this article is also about the concept in Islam, while "goy" is a term only in Judaism. Debresser (talk) 18:17, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Response to opposing argument

"Goy has multiple meanings" - Wikipedia is not a dictionary - policy WP:NOT#DICDEF The fact that a word has multiple meanings is not a justification for an entry - most words in English have multiple meanings (and actually, in English, goy only has one meaning).

"Goy also means nation" - yes so does gentile - as the first line of this article says! The history of the word "goy" is a key part of the history of the concept "gentile"

"Gentile is also used in the context of Islam" - yes gentile now has a wider usage, though it evolved in the Judeo-Christian context, principally as a translation of "goy". But's that why the proposal is to merge "goy" into "gentile" not the other way round.

Atrapalhado (talk) 19:11, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

I see you are going to push you point of view. Well, I am not convinced. Your first point is not a reply to anything I said, and is irrelevant, since the "goy" article does not look like a dictionary entry. Your second point is incorrect: the Latin word once meant "nation", the English word does not. Your third point is correct, although it is not yet in itself an argument for merging what is after all a separate term. Debresser (talk) 00:07, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Response

So your argument AGAINST merging is now that both "goy" and "gentile" meant "nation" in an ancient/religious Language? Hmmm.

(My first point "goy has multiple meanings" was a response to Dimadick above -sorry for not making that clear)

Atrapalhado (talk) 13:26, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

No. I oppose this mainly because the word "goy" in Jewish traditions has a meaning which is not identical with the meaning of "gentile" in English. Mind you, I do not feel strongly about this, and my fellow editors might disagree with me. You might want to consider posting a notification regarding this discussion at WT:JUDAISM. Debresser (talk) 15:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks - that's helpful, I was wondering if there was somewhere I should highlight this. Do you know what section of WT:Judaism I should use - the general discussion board?

Atrapalhado (talk) 18:49, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Just press WT:JUDAISM and then "new section". Debresser (talk) 22:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose I can't help but echo preceding arguments - there is more to 'goy' differentiated from 'gentile' aside from them being different words meaning the same thing. There's history, connotation, evolution of the definition, its prevalence, etc. It's not like there are no pages on the site which detail a pejorative and its history. There's simply no reason to merge them. Zhomron (talk) 19:21, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

• ConclusionThanks everyone. I remain of the view that the histories of the terms "goy" and "gentile" are so closely intertwined (the English word gentile was invented to translate "goy") that it makes sense to consider the history of the terms together. Nonetheless, new content has recently been added to page on "goy" that explores in more detail the MODERN uses and meanings of the term as a pejorative. This content clearly is specific to the word "goy" and, I think, does mean that there is a clear reason for a separate discussion of the two terms. I will withdraw the proposal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atrapalhado (talk • contribs) 12:32, 7 February 2021 (UTC)