Talk:Queer fashion

Genderqueer fashion as a subset of fetish?

At the bottom of the page, this page is categorized under Types>Casual>Alternative>Fetish>Genderqueer.

This doesn't seem accurate, as the page is primarily/exclusively about nonsexual aspects of genderqueer fashion and the Fetish fashion seems to be talking about a completely different type of clothing.

I don't know how to edit the categorization bits at the end of pages - can someone move Genderqueer out of the Fetish category? Maybe make it the same level as Emo and Skinhead?

72.137.132.66 (talk) 18:48, 28 October 2019 (UTC)Newbie Wikipedia contributor

Good catch. I adjusted it. Lastchapter (talk) 16:12, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Small but (I think) important distinction to make in the lead of this article:

Is this article about the clothing of nonbinary or genderqueer people (as in, how gender non-conforming people express their identity through fashion), or is it about fashion that has historically and contemporaneously been seen, designed with the intention of or interpreted as breaking gender boundaries?

I ask because the two are distinct - and also potentially of importance historically, because, uncited hunch here, I'd say that gender non-conforming people likely made the waves of breaking gender lines in fashion before the advent of [insert fashion range advertised with obligatory photograph of Woman Wearing Suit With Hair Slicked Back].

Maybe it seems like a POV peeve; I don't know entirely how this will come across. But as someone who's nonbinary - and had to sit through the Obligatory Section on Fashion That Breaks Gender Boundaries in both pre-GCSE, GCSE and A Level Textiles - it's always bugged me, the conflation of fashion being as much activism as gender non-conforming people, expressing their gender identity through clothing and almost certainly facing resistance for it.

I feel like it wouldn't be difficult to find sources on the fashion industry wider having cottoned onto the existence of nonbinary people after the fact of their activism, and then utilising it as a trope - it should be noted, commonly without featuring nonbinary people in their modelling, designs or campaigns. You hear a lot about the perception of nonbinary trans guys (myself, hello) being 'white, skinny, effeminate'; some heavily uncited part of me can't help but think this has a lot to do with the fashion industry's wider co-option of gender non-conforming clothing as "daring and breaking boundaries".

It's just always appeared an odd and jarring conflation to me; the existence of 'genderqueer fashion' that, er... doesn't feature genderqueer people, and the clothing worn by gender non-conforming people, existing in the same space, or at least in part placed on the same level. Perhaps this distinction is made further down the article; but if it is, it ought to be bunted up to the lead and clarified. Maybe an {{other uses}} tag, linking to an article that better and more precisely covers the fashion industry's interaction with gender non-conforming clothing and ideas would be useful.

I apologise if this seems like a rant - but if someone can salvage a workable point from this, I'd be grateful. I don't feel this article makes this distinction currently, and I definitely feel it's important - I'd appreciate any thoughts on this issue. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 19:16, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Page name

Shouldn't this page be called "Non-binary gender fashion" to match the Non-binary gender page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gender Roamer (talk • contribs) 20:28, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps but I think the text would need to be revised if that change happened. --Historyday01 (talk) 20:32, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

So changing some words from "genderqueer" to "non-binary gender"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gender Roamer (talk • contribs) 20:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

The article itself needs a rework if we're gonna decide on a new name for it - as I detailed in the section above this one, it's just plain confused. Is it about the way gnc people present? Is it about Male Fashion Designer Discovers The Secret To Nongendered Clothing: It'll Shock You How Many Ways You Can Dress Baggy And Beige? My feelings are that it should be the former, with the latter maybe relegated to Gender in fashion or an article centred on the fashion industry, not the ways in which people express their gender visually.

Maybe gender nonconforming fashion or gender nonconforming presentation? Not everyone who's gender nonconforming identifies as nonbinary or genderqueer, but I feel like GNC pretty much hits the spot? -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 21:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

"Gender nonconforming fashion" sounds good. Gender Roamer (talk) 23:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I'd be willing to change it to that too. Historyday01 (talk) 00:11, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good! All agreed, we can get on with a merge and beating this article into shape. :) -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Guys, multiple sources on the page use "queer fashion." And, for this subject, it comes up more during a search than the other titles sources on the page have used. I know some people still find "queer" offensive, but shouldn't we use that as the title? I read Wikipedia:Article titles since I was last on. Gender Roamer (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I just read the section below. "Genderless fashion" is also an option, additionally for consistency with the other page (Genderless fashion in Japan). Gender Roamer (talk) 20:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

It's not so much about the reclaimed status of the slur "queer" as it is attempting to find the broadest but most fitting descriptor for what this article is attempting to describe.

If we're agreeing that this article should cover fashion that is non-representative of traditional gender norms, then we're by default covering people who do not conform to those norms or identify with them. Now, this is where the problem lies. Not all genderqueer people will feel their clothing choices to be "genderless". Not all genderless people will consider their clothing to be "queering" a particular gender at all.

The broadest definition which comfortably encompasses all of these variegated identities and their relationships with gender and fashion is gender nonconforming - it's the lowest common denominator allowing this article to have a specific focus but an all-encompassing reach. Genderqueer? Doesn't conform to traditional standards - so nonconforming to typical gender. Genderless? Doesn't conform to typical standards - so nonconforming to typical gender. However, using either of these terms in place of "Gender nonconforming", we'd run into problems.

As for the other article, "genderless" seems to be a specific term used within Japan to describe a specific concept - the two articles don't have to have conformity of titles, and I'd suggest that they don't, as we're not covering one specific Japanese cultural aspect here, we're giving an overview of fashion broadly in contrast to or departure from typical gender norms. The way I see it, it's impossible to have that sort of discussion with either "Genderqueer" or "Genderless" in the title, as neither are so far-reaching as "Gender nonconforming". -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 11:30, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Genderless fashion

Hello, I recently created Genderless fashion in Japan after noticing that Another Believer created Genderless fashion as a redirect and sent it to this article. Please let me know the best course of action to take! lullabying (talk) 04:35, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I'd say Genderless fashion in Japan looks good enough to stand as its own article. Though this article could link to it, I don't find it to be a POV fork - it seems to cover a unique and standalone movement within its country of origin, and it's well-referenced, so I'd leave it be.

Once this article is renamed to Gender-nonconforming fashion, I'd assume that genderless fashion would fall into the article's scope relatively easily, if that makes sense, so I'd leave that redirect be for now. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:47, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh, while I'm here - I'll have a look over Genderless fashion in Japan for {{transl}} tags and {{nihongo}} formatting. I'd appreciate if you'd take note - I'm trying to raise awareness within editors of the importance of tagging foreign language terms with the correct templates in the correct formatting, as it increases accessibility for users with screenreaders. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:49, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

@Ineffablebookkeeper: Thank you! I was thinking about this and do you think it might be a better idea to rename that article "Genderless man" instead, since most of the people in the subculture are men? lullabying (talk) 02:31, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

lullabying - nah, I'd leave it as-is for now. Even though it's mostly men, if it's not limited to men only, a wider scope that's still specific fits well. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 12:34, 21 March 2021 (UTC)