Talk:Gemini Saga

Naming conventions

• Arles/Ares : In japanese, the name of the greek god of war Ares, is Aresu (アレス). But in the TV series Saint Seiya, Saga's false name as the Pope is Āresu (アーレス). So the 2 names are different, and the name of Saga never had anything to do with the god of war. The long A vowel in japanese is often the equivalent of the "ar" or "er" sounds in english language. So we have to lenghthen the "Ar" sound in the name, and "Arl" is the best way to render it.
  This belief about the god of war manly came from international versions, and more particluarly from Cartoon Network english dub, the persons in charge of the translation thinking the character was meant to be an embodiment of Ares, due to japanese pronunciation of Ares and Arles being quite close. So I edited out every mention of "Ares" in the article, and replaced them by what would be a more accurate spelling, "Arles".

I did a search on Wikipedia of Japan. When input search for アーレス, you get アレス as Ares the god of war. They are really not that different except for the prolonging mark of "ー" on the sounding of "A" or the "Ah" sound since Japanese pronunce romanji slightly different than a regular english word would.

I believe the name Ares should still be mentioned in the article but only as a statement saying that this is widely debated by readers of Saint Seiya since it's so very similar and yet the author did not clearly confirm it.Yajaec 19:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The long vowel sounds (アー, Aa, in our case) are generally used to render the "Ar", "Er" or "Ur" sounds from english.

If the script writers didn't use アレス, which is the more commonly used writing for Ares in japanese, there must be a reason. Folken de Fanel 23:21, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you provide the citing source of how "The long vowel sounds (アー, Aa, in our case) are generally used to render the "Ar", "Er" or "Ur" sounds from english." If there's an official source that can be used as a guideline. And as for that "reason" you spoke of, there's no clear explaination of the reason for many of the writers are Japanese and no one can be sure of their Japanese to English knowledge of how the word should be in English/Romanji based from the pronouciation of Japanese; should it be アレス or アーレス. Based on the Wikipedia Japan, if there's an intended difference between these perticular words アレス and アーレス then when I searched for アーレス, it would have direct me to the page of アーレス (or none, the page does not exist) rather than アレス which is what the page gave me. The Saint Seiya Pope アーレス section on the Japanese Wiki have a direct link to the アレス page when clicked on it, Japanese people edited these pages I guess there's a reason for that connection. (Note: this is not an arugment about prooving the spirit, it's only a statement as for what the research result was).Yajaec 17:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you know a bit of japanese (and it seems to be the case), you already know about the "long A = Ar, Er, Ur" thing. For example, take the english word "character". The japanese borrowed the exact term and they transcribed it in japanese letters: it gives キャラクター (Kyarakutaa).Folken de Fanel 22:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well realizing Wiki's citing regulation, based on what we learned is not good enough to cite from. There should be citing from an official or reliable(published/undisputed) source to use to determind such translation. And besides what you are comparing is not exactly the same for the enfisiss of the sound on the word Character is at the end and Arles or Ares have the enfisiss at the begining in between the other japanese letter. Translation is sensitive and easily messed up. Also the fact that Japanese Wiki site's Pope name アーレス is directly linked to アレス page by the Japanese editor and that's the result of the research.Yajaec 23:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Please, you know the "Aa" sound corresponds to "ar", "er" or "ur" in english. I've seen the japanese wikipedia page but again, we have no clear proof of anything. Folken de Fanel 12:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Again please, if the article input is based on what you and I know, without solid citing and source, we have no ground to stand if others questioned the credibility of the source then this would be original research.Yajaec 16:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

We're talking about basic japanese knowledge...Folken de Fanel

Here's more research, when searching the word アーレス on google, many Japanese website came up with the name and few have english translation of the word. I got mostly the Saint Seiya Saga/Pope toy with no アーレス translation, a few Ares Bykes of Ashura Sixs (bicycle) and a Ales from Japanese Wiki of a place in Italy. There is no direct link of translation from アーレス to the spelling Arles which would rise the question of reliability of the translation.Yajaec 23:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The translation renders a name close to Ares but not quite the same, as in japanese in fact. Folken de Fanel 12:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The translation renders both close Ales and actual word as Ares however there are none renders any where near Arles which calls to be questioned on the accuracy of this translation.Yajaec 16:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no question of the accuracy of this translation. We have rules of translation, we do not have official translation for the word. No translation can be perfectly accurate, in the sense that we don't really know what is the meaning. "Arles" is however an accurate way to render the word in romaji. As is Aares or Aales or Arres or Ales.

I'm going to add a translation note, and we'll see later how we can agree to a consensus. Folken de Fanel 00:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, it seems ADV has chosen "Ares" for their DVD subtitles. If anyone can confirms it, it will be replaced in the artcile, with a side note explaining it's not related to the greek god of war. Folken de Fanel 00:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't search for the ADV info regarding to Ares name but I did came across this scanned image of a Saint Seiya trading card published back in 2000 by Amada Japan. [[1]] It's the back of the card that says Ares/Pope(in kanji) アーレス. The bottom has copy right info with Saint Seiya author's name and etc. You can check it out, the main website is [[2]](to find all the cards, go click on the left side menu under IMAGES, scroll down and under Saint Seiya Rami Card section click on CHARACTERS CARDS(90 images) and the ARES card is number 11 on the list). I don't know if this is good enough but since the card is published and it even have company along with Saint Seiya's author's name printed on it therefore It is a possible option. I don't believe the image was altered in any way because he also included many of the other card images (not altered besides he put note on the side that he scanned it). Yajaec 19:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the japanese is that they can't romanise anything correctly. In a recent Hades artbook, I've found "Perseus Argor", "Rizard Misty" and "Santol Babel". So that's why I generally don't trust what is written on the goodies, I prefer explanations about the meaning coming from the authors themself. But I have to admit there is also the Cloth Myth packaging of Gemini Saga, on which is written "Pope Ares". I'm still wait for a confirmation about ADV's DVD (because it's the version of american licensor and we can't neglect it) and after will modify this (but we agree that the name -at least in the light of the Outside Story- has nothing to do with the real Ares, right ?) Folken de Fanel 19:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

This part of posting isn't about the spirit but is about the name that was used for this character is the word ARES; for the author has been known to use existing name and greek myth characters to name Saint Seiya charater. Anime have the Pope Ares character, manga doesn't. I don't want to flare another discussion with you regarding that "spirit" subject. However, what I wrote before was only a statment that it IS debated by the follower of Saint Seiya that "could be" the spirit(only as a statment of fact regarding the debated topic not confirming it nor claim it is). For many people look at both anime and manga as one (both are part of Saint Seiya, even if the author never decided, the anime creator did make the character name Ares (Pope Ares was crue with thirst for violance as the war god Ares does) which I'm sure you can understand that the Saint Seiya followers would look for the missing info from manga within anime and vice versa). The original statment was said that it's often debated if it's Hades' spirit, but that's actually the first time that I heard of such debate, for in the past for as long as I remember since in the late 80's, the debate was always about Ares-war of god as the possible spirit. If the article is not worded to "...often debated if it's Ares..." then I'm sure you already recieved some responds from other users regarding the spirit and more users will respond in the future. I know it's not confirmed and I don't claim that statement I put as an official claim but the Hades' spirit theory is rather new. What you put in the article regarding to the hair change and what Ikki said, I don't oppose it as true from manga but you put it under the section regarding "Saga's double personality", that I am strongly against since there's no direct confirmation of what Ikki said and the connection of Shun to Saga so if you want to keep it in Saga's article, I would suggest it to be placed in the Note section. This is nothing against YOU because if it's another user that worded this way, I would still have this discussion. Because I truely see that by placing this fact under the "Saga double personility section" it would give readers the impression that Hades is the spirit (which is never officially confirmed). I hope we can come to term as to how to go about making the article more neutural. I'm sure you feel as strongly about Saint Seiya as I do but we have to look again and see if the way we write the article, without knowingly would make one thing sound like another(which I sometime see that too with the way the sentances were put together). Let me know if this help retract the way we started off on the wrong foot.Yajaec 21:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

If the anime script writers had wanted to use the name of the greek god of war, they would have done so. But it's not the case. The name of the greek god of war in japanese is アレス not アーレス. So unless we have comment from the authors, it would be OR to assume anything. Whatever option we choose for the article, it will reflect this difference in the spelling.
As for the Ares theory I don't care about it and it's not the subject here. We've said all there was to say. I won't change my mind about it, it was only a totally unsupported theory like thousand others (like the Gold Saints gems, for example) and the Outside Story debunked it long ago. It was based on a misunderstanding : the anime script writers gave to the Pope a name sounding a bit like Ares, and then with the help of bad translations in certain countries the character was linked to the god of war. This is how this theory started, and I've explained how it ended. So please, no allusion to this anymore.

For the other thing, if you read the article you'll see that there's no theory. I have merely presented facts that are in the manga. You may dislike them because, as you said, you are a strong believer of the Ares theory and you don't want to admit the truth if it doesn't correspond to what you think. I understand your feeling, but we have NPOV rules on Wikipedia.

As I've explained to you, it's no use to try to hide the truth : we have visual clues (same transformation, same color change), we have statement from a character (and yes, we have confirmation Ikki really said it. The manga is this confirmation). It will remain in the article and it won't be a note. This is fact. This is not a theory or a POV. It's a constatation. If the author himself wanted to direct his readers into thinking there was a link with Hades, there's nothing we can do.

The article is already neutral as it does formulates any theory : it only mentions relevant fact.

I still wait for you to explain me how Saga's transformation would not be relevant to Saga's transformation. We're talking about a visual similarity of his possession and Shun's possession. We're talking about a character saying that when Shun is being possessed by Hades, the same thing happened to Saga. I can't see why it would have nothing to do with "saga's double personnality".

I've read the section again, and no, however hard I try, I can see no POV in it : I'm merely stating existing fact from the manga : that there is another character experiencing the same phenomenon as Saga. This sentence doesn't imply anything, or direct the reader in any direction. There was another possessed character, period. It doesn't say anything more. For all I know, it could just imply it's the standard possession method, or that anyone one possessed by any evil spirit has his hair turning black. Folken de Fanel 22:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I've modified the text again, trying to word it as objectively as possible, in order not to hint at anything superfluous. Folken de Fanel 23:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Yo, guys. ADV does translate the name to "Pope Ares". I have their DVDs. here's an example [3] from volume 5, episode 22 ("Phoenix Ikki!"), at the 2:14 mark. I can't capture videos or soundbytes, but I suppose a screenshot will suffice. Tragic Taco 02:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, the article was modified ! Folken de Fanel 12:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• Ok, I don't want to going into that discussion again, especially not in this Naming topic which is not related to the possession topic. And I'm most certainly not hiding any truth no matter what you presume, I will state the rest on the original talk page.Yajaec 22:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• Supreme Pontiff and Holy Father/Pope: The name of this character, in japanese, is Kyōkō (教皇), and indeed, Kyōkō is the exact word for the roman Pope, in japanese language. So it should remain Pope. No need for "Grand" Pope.

• Aioria/Aiolia : the name of this character is based on the greek god Aiolos, indeed, Aiolia, is the younger brother of Sagittarius Gold Saint Aiolos. In japanese, Aiolos is Aiorosu (アイオロス) and Aiolia is Aioria (アイオリア). But remember that in japanese, there's no L sound, only "R..." characters that encompass L and R sounds. So indeed "Aioria" is not a correct spelling, since the etymology of the name is really "Aiol-".

Pope or Supreme Pontiff?

• Changed it back to "Supreme Pontiff" from "Pope" for the following reasons: 1) "Supreme Pontiff" (Pontifex Maximus) can be used to reference the Pope or a Pope-like figure, the latter of which is basically Arles' character; 2) Bandai's toyline labeled the character as the "Supreme Pontiff" -- it's about as official as it gets, until Kurumada himself comments on it.

• • I don't agree. First, we can't trust any "official engrish" translation coming from the japanese, since it changes all the time and isn't always the most accurate version. Don't forget that the japanese aren't fluent with ANY foreign language, not even english. As for Bandai's action figures, in their all new "Saint Cloth Myth" collection, they released Shion as the Pope, in the front of the Box it's written "Kyōkō Shion" in japanese, but at the back, in roman letters, they wrote "Grand Pope Shion" (with the "grand" coming probably from the french translation). As for the "Supreme Pontiff", it appeared on the box of the action figure of 1988, but it was only on the HK version. The original japanese packaging was totally untranslated, thus the "supreme pontiff" isn't official.
    Second, "Kyōkō" is the exact word for "Pope". "Supreme Pontiff" is indeed a synonym of "Pope", but the 2 words are nonetheless different. Folken de Fanel 15:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"Dimension of Exile"?

Where does the technique name "Dimension of Exile" come from? As far as I know, in the original Japanese manga and anime, the name (said in English) is "Another Dimension". Is it yet another mistranslation by Viz or is it a fan-made name? Google tells me nothing. Sera404 04:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Official Techniques and Trivia

There are plenty of fighting techniques described for Saga but only a few of them are "officials": Another Dimension, Galaxian Explosion (told in the encyclopedia of manga tome 28) and GenroMaoken (taizen). I do not deny Saga has the abilities described but in my opinion you should put this as a remark, as it could lead to confusion if it is placed at the same level as the ones I have cited above. Moreover, Shadow Gemini and Maze of Shadow and Light are very specific aspects of Saga "illusion powers", in my view you could regroup them under this appellation. For the sense-removing attack, Saga also precises that Seiya was such tired and in bad position the attack was easy.

Before Saint Seiya Part> "Saga is perhaps one of the oldest Gold Saint at the age of 28" why this perhaps? :-) he is the oldest one with Aiolos apart from Dohko and Shion.

Trivia Part> "The Gemini Gold Cloth belongs to BOTH Saga and Kanon, as Masami Kurumada showed in his manga, Saga says to Kanon : You are a Gold Saint who has prepared to take my place if I die", during the Poseidon arc."

Excellent remark, but you could also place it at the very beginning of the Kanon page. I have seen on some saint seiya fora that the idea of Kanon being a Gemini Gold Saint is not obvious for everyone, but this citation, with a phrase of the Saint Seiya Taizen "He [Kanon] succeded to Saga in being the Gemini Gold Saint, the last will of his twin brother." is very clear: he is the Gemini Gold saint, after his brother :-)

Harsiesis 20:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Official Techniques again and again

Light Speed Punch (光速拳, kon cho ken) He can generate multiple beams only by lifting his arm.

This is NOT a special technique (moreover, the term is improper, kosokuken would be better to describe light speed attack). It is a bit boring to explain this again and again. This ability is not exceptional at all. Gold saints master light speed displacement and attack, and we have other examples of gold attacking with "simple" light speed rays: Aiolia of course, Shaka in the anime, Deathmask at Rozan... Should we complete their articles? of course not, apart from saying they master light speed, which is not very surprising...

"Many consider Saga to be the most powerful of all Gold Saints."

Remark of little interest from my point of view. There are plenty of fora on which the question of the most powerful gold saint is debated and it does not lead very often to a precise conclusion. Many consider Saga to be the most powerful of all Gold Saints but it does not imply that he would be. At last, is this a wiki article or a fanboy web site? Harsiesis (talk) 10:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Cloth, Constellation and Temple

and his Gold Cloth represents it and its associated myth : the Dioskuroi, Castor and Polydeuces, twin sons of Leda and brothers of Helen of Troy and Clytemnestra.

May be so, may be not... from my point of view, the totem does not resemble much to dioscures. The Latin god Janus may be more an inspiration, or also the androgyn described by Plato in Symposium. Harsiesis (talk) 10:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Datas

I just checked Saga's height in manga vol.13 : it is 188 cm and not 193. Who is the person who changed this? because in the history, I can see 188cm in old pages. Harsiesis (talk) 11:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Mmm... apparently, there are people who are not tired of salvage editing... Saga is 188cm heighted, period (manga t. 13). Or show us the proof... Harsiesis (talk) 19:21, 16 May 2009 (UTC)