Talk:Gang war in Haiti

Bwa Kale

The article identifies Bwa Kale with FRG9, but some recent news have been describing bwa kale as a 'vigilante movement' started by residents of Port-au-Prince, acting against gang control. Such as this reuters article JoaquimCebuano (talk) 22:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Bwa Kale is a whole different movement against gangs. RossoSPC (talk) 16:27, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Suggesting a better way to organize the gangs

Perhaps a better way to organize the gangs and make them more readable and understand who is one who's side.

G9 Alliance

Fòs Revolisyonè G9 an Fanmi e Alye
Founded	June 10 2022
Founder	Jimmy Chérizier
Years active	1
Territory	Port-au-Prince
Ethnicity	Haitian
Leader(s)	Jimmy Chérizier, Delmas 6 Gang
Activities	Gang violence, revolution
Allies	Baz Pilate, Baz Krache Dife, Nan Ti Bwa, Simon Pelé's gang, Baz Nan Chabon, Nan Boston, Belekou gang
Rivals	G-Pep alliance, Haitian government

G-Pep Alliance

Founder	Jean Pierre Gabriel
Territory	Port-au-Prince, Cabaret
Ethnicity	Haitian
Leader(s)	Jean Pierre Gabriel, Nan Brooklyn gang
Activities	Gang violence
Allies	400 Mawozo, Grand Ravine, 5 Second, Baz Galil, Titanyen gang, Base 5 Secondes, Canaan gang, "Village de Dieu
Rivals	G9 Alliance, Haitian government

Bigfatman8766 (talk) 12:08, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bigfatman8766: You're right, though I fear that these infoboxes are too big for the current article. I will try to find a solution once I have more time to expand the article. Applodion (talk) 13:04, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

This topic has become very relevant in recent days and is worth additional discussion. What ways do you suggest we make the page more readable or easier to understand the organization of the gangs? Jurisdicta (talk) 17:32, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Changing gang Symbols to this flag

https://twitter.com/NWElSalvador/status/1765794986421841981/photo/2, so I saw this photo from AP and it appears Gangs in Haiti are using this symbol to represent their cause, can we change their flag to this? 12.133.76.18 (talk) 17:52, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Retitling this page

Should this page be retitled to something more specific, like maybe specifying the time period? Right now, it could refer to any gang war in Haiti, of which there's been a lot. CoyotesKenning (talk) 15:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree also. IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 10:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Rename: Haitian Civil War

If the situation continues escalating as it is, anyway 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:34B3:9517:489F:9DE2 (talk) 23:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Also it would be a more neutral name than the "gang" or "criminal" labels 129.104.211.183 (talk) 00:51, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah the Police force has been effectively wiped out in recent battles AND we've got cannibalism outbreaks. 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:D4B:76D9:74EB:2E1F (talk) 04:54, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support. It certainly would be better. But maybe something using the word 'riots'? I mean not necessarily 'civil war'. IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 10:28, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• It is 100% going into a civil war.IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 10:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

https://www.latimes.com/le-0822-haiti-pg-photogallery.html

https://www.france24.com/en/video/20240312-haiti-not-so-much-a-civil-war-not-even-collapse-of-a-state-but-the-creation-of-a-criminal-state — Preceding unsigned comment added by IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk • contribs) 10:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I've read many sources that claim that the 2023-2024 surge of violence in Haiti is essentially a civil war, and the only reason why the label isn't being used is that the parties involved are criminal gangs. Randomuser335S (talk) 19:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

The issue is that be changing the title, in my view, is that it mean wikipedia would be the first ones declaring it. So far, most sources still refer to it as "gang war". I would suggest waiting until the consensus shifts to this being a civil war. Declan Newton (talk) 14:45, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: If you want to move the article, a) start a proper move discussion and b) no source calls this a "civil war" [one source mentioned above even outright denies that this is a civil war]. In contrast, many sources use the term "gang war". Wikipedia follows reliable sources, not our feelings on what "might" happen. Applodion (talk) 15:09, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

What about 'riots' then? Hope we could reach consensus. Plenty of sources say these are riots. The source you was writing about said it was 'criminal state creation' - in contradiction to a 'gang war' and in fact something in the middle. IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 15:22, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

@IHaveBecauseOfLocks: "Riots" does not convey the fact that these are organized groups waging a multi-year conflict; furthermore sources which use "riots" (such as this or this) talk about specific events during the overall conflict, not the entire fighting. In contrast, "gang war" is specifically used by sources to talk about the entire conflict (for example, see here, here, and here). That being said, I'm open to discuss other potential titles such as Haitian conflict, as long as they are sourced. Personally, I think that a more common name will emerge in the sources once Henry leaves offices and we finally see what direction the country is headed. Perhaps the title of this article will end up as "Fall of the Third Haitian Republic". Who knows. Applodion (talk) 19:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

A 'Haitian conflict' would be cool. Just seems it would be better with making it more specific. There has been many conflicts in Haiti over the history... - Just as CoyotesKenning was also proposing rename of this 'Gang war in Haiti' into "something more specific" in this talk page one section up from this one. IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 19:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Rather than renaming the article, I would suggest focusing primarily on improving it. There is no doubt that there was a gang war in 2022. Has that war between gangs ended? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 19:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

@SashiRolls: The gang war is ongoing. The sources still mention that the gangs keep fighting each other; for instance, this Reuters article from this month mentions ongoing clashes between G-Pep and G9. However, G9 has become so powerful that most media attention is given to them instead of the other gangs. Applodion (talk) 19:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have perhaps made clearer that that was mostly a rhetorical question. :) Feel free to help out over at the Haitian crisis entry if you're so inclined. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 20:30, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Even if it still holds true that there is a gang war, it does not mean, it might have evolved into a broad conflict. As one of the mentioned sources said, it is 'creation of a criminal state' (at least not yet a terrorist one). Some people just have gang mentality, and what is more, they are in fact ruling several countries at least. I mean, the label 'gang' does not separate them from other human groups vying for government positions. I just thought that making the reader aware of this would be nice - that they are in fact political actors these or other gangs.. And well, they removed Henry now.

Indeed, in 2022 there was a gang war in Haiti. Before it even as CoyotesKenning argued. The thing is this current situation is quite really different.IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 09:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Despite reluctance to admit they are political actors, by fait accompli maybe it could be admited they are? Because fait accompli at this point they do have certainly. IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 09:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

It is also because they are targeting the government, literally trying a coup d'etat + Guy Philippe targeting to rule - theoretically sources do not say he is a member of a gang, but he is influencing them, they have connections with him: a politician, released from US prison. Like you said "most media attention is given to them" but also because of their power to succeed with ousting the prime minister acting also as president all the while evading the international military operation looming over them for half a year. IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 09:12, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Too many Twitter sources

Obviously this is an ongoing situation, but a large chunk of the sourcing for the newest content added to the page are tweets. And many of them seem to lack relevance or newsworthiness. Some are in French, there's an Elon tweet, and a Matt Gaetz tweet. 71.11.5.2 (talk) 17:38, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Sexual violence

There should be some mention in this entry of sexual violence as one of the gangs' methods of intimidation. [1] You can find a lot of NGO sources on this. If someone worked on this, it would be much appreciated. Cheers, -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 21:15, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I copied what I added over at the main entry on the Haitian crisis as a starting point. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 21:45, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I admit it is noble to care about this aspect. Although it completely should not stand as an obstacle in atmitting a group is not a political actor - as can be seen by looking at Afghanistan for example. Recent developments show also other such victories. Even as these ruling authorities conflict with western worldview. I just mean sober realism. IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 09:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The lack of coverage of this issue in the entry needed fixing and has nothing to do with the lack of consensus for your desire to rename the page.-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 09:46, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I mean it's a good idea. And it has some connection to the question discussed above. But not particularly important, whatever. IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk) 15:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Make a seperate article for the G-Pep gang itself?

We don't have a article for the G-Pep gang yet. RossoSPC (talk) 16:23, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Map and contradiction in the list of belligerents

The map in the lede doesn't show the two big coalitions that the text in the lede names as the main belligerents. 62.73.72.3 (talk) 12:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, while the lede describes the war as a conflict between two gang coalitions opposed to each other, the template of the war under the map contradicts it by portraying all the gangs as being part of one and the same side in the war versus the government as another side and the vigilantes as a third side. The latter is also surprising, since I would expect the vigilantes to be on the side of the government. 62.73.72.3 (talk) 12:40, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, I think I've got it now - the text in the lede was out of date and the map shows the situation after the gangs formed a coalition. But since they were fighting each other for most of the gang war, this changing configuration should still be marked, as it usually is in this template.--62.73.72.3 (talk) 19:16, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Violence towards the press

Haïti is #1 on the CPJ Global Survey of unsolved journalist murders per capita released today... those interested in improving the article could do some digging into this fact (some names and linked pages to get you started)...-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 23:57, 30 October 2024 (UTC)