Talk:Gabrielle Roth

Recreated article

I have recreated this article with much more information. Frankly, anyone in the fields Gabrielle Roth is active in would be surprised that her notability would be questioned. Just the fact that she has three books published by non-vanity presses should be enough, but she is the founder of a recording studio, producer of over a dozen CDs and numerous videos (at least two of which have been reviewed by the New York Times), the founder of her own school of dance and movement and her own center for instruction in them, a world-wide lecturer and performer, and a faculty member of Omega, Kripalu and Esalen. She is well-known in the New Age movement, world music field, Neo-Pagan community, and other circles from indie music to theatre. I hope that the additional data I've added to the article will prevent further proposals of deletion. If not, at least don't delete it so quickly, so one of the many people familiar with her carreer may add to it. BTW, I have no connection at all with her, have never booked or spoken with her, and know her solely from her reputation and her works.Rosencomet 20:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and thanks to User:NawlinWiki, who deleted the article as it was, for posting the original text on my talk page so I could work on it some more.Rosencomet 20:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Deletion prod

I have deleted the proposed deletion prod on this page, since I object to the deletion of this article. I believe it passes the criteria for notability and is not at all a vanity article. My reasons can be found in the text above placed when the article was recently deleted after a 5-day prod. I added more data including several reviews, interviews, etc. Rosencomet 21:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The user who prodded the article has a history of prodding notable articles so I don't think there is anything to discuss unless the prodder returns. —Viriditas | Talk 15:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the RFC tag as it seems this is handled. JodyB _{Roll, Tide, Roll} 18:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

5Rhythms

Good to see this page recreated. However there is little mention of the five rhythms, which I guess is her most influential work. There was a 5Rhythms page which was deleted [1], apparently without discussion. The answers.com mirror shows what the page looked like. I'm thinking of taking this to WP:DRV which would go a lot easier if there was some newspaper articles or such like to show notability. I have found a couple of academic pubs

• Cook, S., Ledger, K., Scott, N. (2003) ‘Women’s experience of 5 Rhythms dance and the effects on their emotional wellbeing’ (Book) Pubs U.K. Advocacy Network, Sheffield[2]
• Pract Midwife. 2007 Mar;10(3):20, 22-3. The ecstasy of spirit: five rhythms for healing. Henley-Einion A. University of the West of England.

--Salix alba (talk) 17:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Now on deletion review at Wikipedia:Deletion review#5Rhythms. --Salix alba (talk) 22:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Now recreated. 5Rhythms. --Salix alba (talk) 16:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Glad to see you working on this, Salix alba. I didn't mean to give 5 Rhythms short shrift. I figured a link to it was enough; but if you want to expand a section here for a better description with a direction to the full article, more power to you. (Heck, I'm just happy I was able to stop this one from being deleted.)Rosencomet (talk) 17:53, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I have just suggested that the 5Rhythms article be deleted and simply redirect to the Gabrielle Roth article, which should certainly have an expanded section on 5Rhythms. I am not questioning the notability of the '5Rhythms' per se, but 5Rhythms.com does redirect to gabrielleroth.com and I think it would be pretty difficult to write a good separate article because of the lack of neutral sources available. The best article you could write would mostly draw from the 3 or 4 academic papers that have been written on the subject, if somebody wants to do that then they should. But the easiest thing to do would be to add a 5Rhythms section here. 4 years on there hasn't been much effort in getting the articles up to scratch. Maloot (talk) 12:44, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because she is the creator of a large 5Rythmes movement with practitioners world wide and a fair amount of press coverage. eg NYT.--Salix (talk): 15:13, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The article has been suggested for deletion before, and every reason it has not been deleted still applies. She is notable as a performer, author, innovator in her field, and more.Rosencomet (talk) 13:38, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

The truth of the matter is that the article is terribly poorly cited. This wouldn't happen if either of you would bother to improve the citations. Yworo (talk) 04:00, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Since she is a living person, the article will probably have to be stubbed by removal of all uncited information if citations are not promptly supplied. Especially the claims involving working with other living people. Each needs to be cited individually or removed (i.e. other artists she or her band have allegedly performed or worked with). Due to the lack of substantive sourcing and the claims made, the article appears rather promotional in tone. Yworo (talk) 04:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

It's in a sad state. I'm looking for citations. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Musicians, Magazines, Directing

The following uncited list of musicians is here for anyone to find citations for and so replace in the article:

"Contributors and collaborators have included composer/guitarist Lenny Kaye (of the Patti Smith Band); Allison Cornell on strings (of Joe Jackson and Pat Benatar); Jai Uttal (Indian fusion musician); space music composer Raphael; Boris Grebenshikov; and percussionists Gordy Ryan, Arthur Hull, Steven Scales (Talking Heads), and Cyro Baptista (of Paul Simon and Laurie Anderson of the band Beat the Donkey)."

Similarly, an uncited list of magazines she's been in. Probably they were in the years B.W. (Before Web). Again, feel free to cite and add back.

"Her work has been featured in Self, Elle, Mademoiselle, Bazaar, Donna Karan's Woman to Woman, Utne Reader, New Age Journal, Body Mind Spirit, Shape Magazine, Fitness and many other national publications."

Similarly, an uncited list of theaters she's directed in.

"Roth has directed Off-Off Broadway for the One Act Theater Co. and has been a member of the PDU of the Actor’s Studio. She directed One Arm Red (Brooklyn) and the Hip Pocket Theater (Ft Worth, Texas)."

Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:06, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

References

Improving the article

I've removed the bit about Gabrielle Roth living most of her life in New York, as the quoted source (Yoga Journal - now archived on Google) doesn't substantiate this. She does not appear to have spent significant time in New York before the mid-80s. Also, 'Sweat Your Prayers' is her second book.

On a heads up, it appears Gabrielle Roth is terminally ill - http://www.facebook.com/events/240182226108045/ Maloot (talk) 23:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

It does seem she was in New York a lot from 1980s, maybe we can say this. Dreadful news: let's see if at least we can improve this article a bit.

A trivial point - the Infobox at the top looks very sad with so little in it, and no photo. We could move it down the article (say to Career), add something to it, or comment it out. Ideas, anyone? Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I think you can certainly say that Gabrielle Roth has considered New York to be her adopted home in the most recent period of her life. The thing with the life of GR is that there really is a paucity of biographical information out there. The Andrea Juhan thesis heavily suggests that GR studied with Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, probably in Pune and/or Oregon. Gabrielle Roth kind of appears in 1985 (when her first album was recorded I think), Osho having left Oregon in very controversial circumstances. I could be putting 2 and 2 together and making 5 here; it will be interesting to see if a more comprehensive biography in the next few weeks and months, though I would be wary of taking much at completely face value as it's fair to say that she has her devotees. Maloot (talk) 13:30, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Robert Ansell is cited as her husband. Do we know if they are still together or for how long? I can, again, find every little solid biog info. Span (talk) 13:45, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/fashion/05Sober.html?_r=0 , he has also cosigned with Jonathan Horan the principle communication detailing her apparent terminal illness, which I will try and link. Gabrielle Roth's legal name is Gabrielle Ansell - if you search for the 5Rhythms US trademark, it is owned by 'Gabrielle Ansell'. Again, I can try and link at some stage. Maloot (talk) 13:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Death of Gabrielle Roth

She has now died - http://www.facebook.com/events/240182226108045/, I don't think the page needs to be flagged yet - there have been a couple of IPs active today but nothimg major. Cause of death is not being discussed, however http://www.embodiworks.org/mycancer-blog/gabrielle-roth's-dancing-with-cancer-for-profound-health-and-healing/ states, as of April 2012, she had been suffering from Stage IV lung cancer for almost 3 years. There's a further cancer-related 2010 audio interview here - http://bethgreer.podbean.com/2010/06/28/gabrielle-roth%E2%80%99s-healing-journey-from-stage-4-lung-cancer-to-health-without-using-chemotherapy/ Maloot (talk) 20:16, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

We do need to wait for a WP:RS before major edit. I'm sure there will be some obits in the next week or so.--Salix (talk): 21:30, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I suspect you're right, but something like a Huff-Po obit will need to be looked at carefully because of the OSHO connection 22:08, 23 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maloot (talk • contribs)

First half way decent source is Obituary: Gabrielle Roth a blog from University of West Georgia Psychology dept. --Salix (talk): 22:25, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Except they took almost all the text from here, pretty much verbatim. Maloot (talk) 22:56, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I have reverted the text. Declaration of death should never have been made to a BLP without rock solid sources. We'll have to wait. Span (talk) 02:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The sources being given for Roth's death are currently no where near strong enough - a personal webpage, an FB site and foreign language culture chat site don't cover it. This article is a BLP currently and sources need to be rock solid; that is to say reliable: no user-edited sources, no FB, Twitter, blogs, forums or personal websites. This is usual, standard WP practice and it matters that the info is accurate. Span (talk) 06:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course you're right in theory, but there is no doubt of the facts (given the official Facebook page alone - yes, I know, I know), and you will find/are already finding that you're pushing water uphill with a rake... people rightly want the matter to be made known. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:44, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the best course is to list as dead, but with a {{citation needed}} tag. The FB page does count as a primary source, especially as its created by Jonathan A Horan who is her son. The post on FB page Jonathan A Horan - Executive Director, 5 Rhythms Global could well be taken as oficial announcement.--Salix (talk): 07:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Support that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:43, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

This is also up, if it helps - Find-A-Grave.com entry. 86.112.67.18 (talk) 07:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not convinced she died in Marin County, like that findagrave entry says. It's possible but unlikely - her main assistant teachers (Kathy Altman, Lori Saltzman, Andrea Juhan) flew from California into New York in the days preceding as is my understanding. If anything, her death really highlights the fact that it is difficult, nigh on impossible, to do a decent GR entry as it stands. 24 hours on, there's a bit of blog-noise but nothing much else.Maloot (talk) 08:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed re Marin County death location as bogus. Her dance practice constitutes my core community. She was in New York and I'm informed 7:30 EST Oct 22nd was the time/day. But I can't give you any better sources than others already mentioned above, such as her son. The world of reporting is changing and possibly citation policies will also. Regards. Rad314 (talk) 10:27, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I have enough contacts in the 5 Rhythm community to seek more data, and citable sources. I have little experience with Wikipedia editing, but I'd enjoy learning, particularly if one experienced person volunteered to coach me through the task. There's another biographical I've been interested in adding to WP, and some coached work on this one might give me the skills to do so. Rad314 (talk) 11:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The Wikipedia citation policy will change when Voyager II proves the world is flat. We'll just have to wait until the newspapers catch up. From within the dance community the best hope would be a serious independent obituary on a major dance company's website, or a published journal. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate the reasonableness of all the editors involved in this discussion, despite the emotive topic. As you know WP is not intended for reporting news. Yes, this all feels like pushing water up hill with a rake but it's the family's right to release news to the media when they choose. I agree with CC that WP citation policy is clear and not changing any time soon. Span (talk) 14:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Using the 'External links'

Since we collectively seem to have energy at the moment, could someone volunteer to take the External links that oddly have full citations and move them into the article as refs for appropriate new text? They look really peculiar where they are... Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:21, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Personal life

An IP user has added "she married a wonderful man named Robert Ansell. Gabrielle had three step children, Scott ansell,Brian ansell, and Kevin ansell. Now Kevin has two children Sofia ansell, and Luke ansell, who will long for their grandmother. Brian Ansell also has a daughter named Ava." which is very likely true, but isn't currently usable without a reliable source, and a bit of editing. Does anyone know of a suitable source for this? Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Gabrielle Roth/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BennyOnTheLoose (talk · contribs) 11:48, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'm away from my desk just now so responses may be a bit slow, but I'll do my best! Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:41, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Happy to be challenged on any of my review comments. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:48, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments

Copyvio check

• I reviewed matches over 7% found using Earwig's Copyvio Detector. 40%+ matches with arielkarass.com and dans5rytmer.com appear to have used the Wikipedia article rather than vice versa. The Guardian match is an attributed quote. "five body rhythms: flowing, staccato, chaos, lyrical and stillness" is OK per WP:LIMITED IMO. No issues, although "a way to become conscious through dance" should probably be attributed in the text as a direct quote.
  • Noted, attributed.

Images

• The fair use rationale for the Roth image looks appropriate. Manhattan Ensemble Theatre pic is relevant, and has a CC licence; caption and positioning are fine. Optionally, alt text could be added to the images. (MOS:ALT)
  • Noted, alt text added.

Sources

• The Yoga Journal November/December 1990 reference could be more complete (Albert, Mimi "Teachings of an Urban Shaman", pp.70–73
  • Done.

• Margaret Wagner reference is lacking details (e.g author, date, and – from the archive copy I'm seeing – the full title)
  • Added.

• Awareness mag ref is missing the author.
  • Added.

• What makes biblicalbards.org a suitable source?
  • Removed.

• Jed Lipinski should appear as Lipinski, Jed
  • Fixed.

• For example, Nadine Fiume, Adam Barley, Gay Murphy, and Margaret Wagner Archived March 22, 2012, at the Wayback Machine teach the 5 Rhythms. is a bit untidy with the archive link. The ref and that info may be redundant, actually.
  • Tidied.

• Simon (2010) is missing the source name.
  • Added.

• Facebook is never an ideal source but in context here I think it's acceptable.
  • Noted.

• There are a handful of refs not in CS1 format - I don't like this but it's not a blocker to a GA.
  • Noted, I'll fix it soon.

• Spot check on At 26, she was told that she needed surgery and wouldn't dance again and resigned herself to the prognosis. - no issues.
  • Noted.

• Spot check on During this time she visited the concentration camps memorials in Germany that she had studied during college - no issues.
  • Noted.

• Spot check on She trained for three years with Oscar Ichazo - no issues. ("trained for three years with Oscar Ichazo" appears in the source but IMO WP:LIMITED applies)
  • Noted.

• Spot check on Roth directed theatre productions of Savage Love, by Sam Shepard and Joseph Chaikin, at The Culture Project (Mercer Street, New York City - source has the production's title as "Savage/Love"
  • Fixed.

• Spot chek on "an old woman with frizzy dyed red hair, a funny accent, and a long thin stick" who would beat her whenever she made a mistake, initiating in Roth a severe inferiority complex - no issues. ("severe inferiority complex" appears in the source, but IMO, again, is OK per WP:LIMITED)
  • Noted.

Text sections

Early life

• Typically the birth details would be included and cited here rather than in the lead.

• entered a depression - I don't have access to the La Cerra source, but this seems an unusual phrasing.
  • Reworded.

• Optionally, you could vary the openings of some of the sentences in the secong paragraph (I'm looking at She entered/She became/She found)
  • Done.

Career

• (Stockbridge, Massachusetts) - maybe "in Stockbridge, Massachusetts" ? (Similarly for (Rhinebeck, New York) and (Mercer Street, New York City)
  • Done.

• and has taught at the - maybe "and taught at the"?
  • Fixed.

• Roth wrote three books: not supported by the following citation, but there is a list of three later in the articel so that's OK.
  • Noted.

• Gabrielle Roth and the Mirrors - italics aren't used for band names. (AFAIK.)
  • Fixed.

• Roth performed and recorded as Gabrielle Roth and the Mirrors, - supported by the source, but elsewhere it looks like other musicians were involved too, rather than these being all Roth's own work. (And the subheading is "With the Mirrors")
  • She formed and led the Mirrors. I've weaked the opening text. Please feel free to copy edit here.

• The 5Rhythms have been the subject of academic study - optionally, it might be interesting to add a bit more about these.
  • I think I'll attempt this after the GA, if that's OK.

Personal life/Works

• The link to Sweat Your Prayers: Movement as Spiritual Practice gives me a message "Book available to patrons with print disabilities". There is another copy on Internet Archive that doesn't have that restriction. Optionally, you could change the link.
  • Changed link.

Infobox and lead

• Spouse Robert Ansell isn't mentioned in the body text and doesn't have a citation.
  • Added and cited.

• Lead is quite short, but acceptable given the length of the article. Optionally you could add something from the second para of Early life, or a bit more about what Roth was looking to achieve through her work.
  • Noted.

General

• As you'll know from past reviews, I include some comments where everything is fine, for the record.
  • Noted.
• I made the changes suggested by a couple of scripts.Feel free to revert anything that is objectionable.
  • All fine, thanks for that!

I'm satisfied that the article meets the GA criteria so am passing it. Nice work, thanks. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:34, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.