Talk:Gabriel Pascal

Original name

Hungarian weekly newspaper, Heti Világgazdaság (XXVIII./51-52.; 23 December 2006) stated that his original name was "Gábor Lehel" without citing any primary sources. I'm not entirely convinced that the journalist had a strong proof for that claim but I don't think that he'd simply invedted it (HVG is not a tabloid). --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 15:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I have his biography on my shelf and will check it carefully. It could be that this is true. Cott12 Talk 17:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Think you are right. http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Pascal Went ahead and changed it in the article.

Ehm. Well, I can't really speak Esperanto, but as much as I can understand in this article it is likely based @ that other article in Heti Világgazdaság (that seems likely considering Narvalo wrote that shortly after the 52-53. issue of HVG was published and that he is a Hungarian citizen). While I wanna emphasize again that HVG is not an unreliable tabloid, I think it's better to be cautious if we can't find the same info in some other independent sources. --Adolar von Csobánka (Talk) 18:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll check into it. Cott12 Talk 18:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC) All I have been able to discover independently (from his wife's bio of him) is that his name does appear to have been Gabor, but can find no last name. It merely says that he created the name Gabriel Pascal as a stage name. Cott12 Talk 19:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I read though the biography carefully and there is no "Gábor Lehel". This is the only biography of Pascal written. All the rest are from his letters. Written by his wife after his death, it literally says that his early life is "shrouded in mystery" and that no formal records exist of him. She says that "Gabor" (as he remembers being called as a child) is Hungarian for Gabriel and that the full name Gabriel Pascal was created as a stage name when he entered acting school and gives no other name. Lehel, it appears is a Hungarian legendary figure, and sounds aprocryphal. Perhaps Pascal referred to himself in this way somewhere. She also said that he gave different accounts of his childhood at different times and she never knew what was real and what was made up. What seems to be true is that he was a foster child tossed from place to place until military school. His wife seems to imply that his childhood was so painful for him that he made up stories to cover it up, and changed his name legally to hide his past. I did find one other source of the word Lehel in his name. http://mek.oszk.hu/00300/00355/html/ABC11587/11849.htm Cott12 Talk 12:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

"Lehel" is a common surname and given name in Hungary. (Especially in that time. And yes, this is because of the "legendary figure".) There is no apocriphancy at all. Some not-so-important data can be omitted if the biography's author itself can't confirm it - but this is can be happen simply because he/she in the other side of the World. Madacs (talk) 23:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Lehel may in fact be his last name at birth. The problem is there needs to be a published source. If it is in a film, then there needs to be a mention of this fact from the film so people can check it. So a secondary source. Internet Movie Database only gives the names Gabor Pascal and G Pasqual. Dazedbythebell (talk) 22:45, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

His name Gábor Lehel mentioned in film, and people can check it, as it is subtitled in English! The film shows playbills as he was acting in Hofburgtheater in Vienna, (7:30 -8:40). So why is it not an acceptable reference to state: "his name was likely Gábor Lehel"? JSoos (talk) 11:26, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I watched the film you wished to use as a source. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKvxoQjA-og However, it does not give evidence. All of the facts for this film come from Pascal's wife's book "The Disciple and His Devil." Its author is the only person interviewed. She never gives this name 'Lehel.' Nor do the subtitles refer to him this way. Rather what you are referring to is that the filmmakers feel sure they have discovered it, as they found the name Hr. Lehel in some German language playbills of the times. However, all this establishes is that Pascal used the stage name Lehel at an earlier time. Gabriel Pascal itself is also a stage name. The film's narrator implying that they discovered his 'real name' has no basis in sources and they supply no further evidence beyond pointing to the playbills. In Pascal's biography it makes it clear on p. 59, in the chapter "The Gypsy," that even Pascal did not know his real name, but had only a vague memory of a woman calling out 'save Gabor' from his infancy. So if he did not know his birth name, how could it be his 'real name' on a playbill? This does not count as a discovery of a source establishing his birth name. It is merely a movie. And a very nicely made movie indeed. Dazedbythebell (talk) 13:44, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally this source in Hungarian implies by a comma that Lehel may have been a second stage name sometimes used, which would be consistent with the playbills. It is clearly not stated as his last name, due to the comma. However, even that would only be conjecture as it does not say, and thus to include that as a fact in the article would be original research. There would need to be a reliable published source stating his "real name" or "birth name." Dazedbythebell (talk) 13:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

References

iUniverse

Hi Victoriagirl,
I think you did a fabulous clean-up. The reason I cleared the link to iUniverse is that there is no longer an article for it. There use to be an article but administrators must have deleted it. iUniverse is a self-publishing house. The spelling they use is with the small i and capital u. Here is their webpage. Tommytocker 17:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

My apologies, I didn't notice that the iUniverse article had been deleted. Thanks. Victoriagirl 18:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Like I said, you did a really nice clean-up. Tommytocker 19:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Meher Baba Paramount.jpg

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BetacommandBot 03:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Valerie

If you wish to write about Pascal's wife, write an article about her. This is about the producer. Dazedbythebell (talk) 16:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Recent Edits

Editor 188.24.197.169 from Bucharest, Hungary needs to take a deep breath, join Wikipedia, and discuss his changes one at a time in this discussion page. All the information is from the only existing Biography of Gabriel Pascal written by his wife Valerie, McGraw Hill, 1970. The region in which Pascal was born has had numerous boarder changes. His wife, also from Hungary, referred to herself and her husband as Hungarian. Occasionally you hear them referred to as Romanian. This is due to numerous changes in the boarder since their birth. IMDB is not as authoritative as his authorized biography in print by a major publishing house. IMDB is essentially a Wiiki and not an Encylopedic source. Dazedbythebell (talk) 22:14, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Background

Gabriel was a Rumanian who lived with his family in Arad. He was schooled and educated in Hungary, although he was of Gypsy heritage through his mother's side (according to the New York Times Obituary from 1954). El Niñoo 78 (talk) 18:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes this would be true of his place of birth in 1954 as the map had changed. But this is not where he was born because it was Hungary at the time of his birth. See the map of Europe from 1900. Look at Romania back then before the wars. Map of Europe in 1900 He was born in Hungary at the time he was born. The border changed later, thus he is named sometimes as being from Romania later, but they are making the error. Dazedbythebell (talk) 02:31, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Removed American people of Hungarian descent

I removed the category:American people of Hungarian descent. It is not clear from any source I know what his citizenship was at the end of his life. It may have been British since he had a farm there in 1945 though he died in New York City. During the making of Androcles and the Lion in 1952 he had a home loaned to him by Howard Hughs and at the very end was living in the NY YMCA. Dazedbythebell (talk) 22:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Austria Hungary

Following the Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867, the Habsburg Empire became the "dual monarchy" of Austria-Hungary. Dazedbythebell (talk) 19:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes quite so Blade-of-the-South (talk) 08:53, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Austria Hungary, Here we go again

Please see this article section The Kingdom of Hungary was only one of two monarchies that made up Austria-Hungary at that time. So the correct designation is Austria-Hungary, as that is the full picture of what it was at the time. One or the other monarchy makes up only half the picture. See map in comments above. So while Kingdom of Hungary is technically true, it was also Kingdom of Austria. So Austria-Hungary. Get it? Dazedbythebell (talk) 07:38, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Original name sourcing

I replaced the sourcing of Gabor Lehel to a printed book in English, the letters between Pascal and George Bernard Shaw published by the University of Toronto Press. The original name had been cited to a foreign-language story on a Romanian news website. This sourcing was changed back to the website. I believe a printed English-language source is more definitive and propose using it rather than the website. PedanticallySpeaking (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

I see but, unfortunately many of the Anglo-Saxon or Romanian sources/cited content are traditionally failing regarding proper Hungarian pronunciation and Hungarian names. It is so apparent, like you'd spell Bruce Willis like Brúsz Villesz...The given name: Gabor could not be in any means, since in Hungarian Gábor is the proper spelling, moreover he was born under Hungarian administration, so not by any means his name could be recorded as the mistaken sources claim. By the family name, "Lehol" is a clear and ridiculous misspelling, since in Hungarian "Lehel" is famous given name and also a family name. So it is really useless to make the question appear as English-language printed source vs. website....Hungarians definetly know better how their own citizens were officialy registered, especially if they meet with such impossible misspelling that was presented. Ask anyone from Wikiproject Hungary, or any editor that deals with the Hungarian language, even Hungarian-Americans or if you wish, Hungarians from Canada or Hungarians from Romania....they would immediately react as I do....we wish to have valid content in Wikipedia yes? Cheers(KIENGIR (talk) 22:55, 6 October 2017 (UTC))