Talk:Gabras/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Dr. Blofeld (talk · contribs) 10:55, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Lead

• Wikilink Constantine Gabras in the first instance, delink the second.
• Pipe link to Trabzon directly in lead and first section, currently a redirect.
• "known for his extensive surviving correspondence" no idea what you mean.

Origins

• "but the surname "Gabras" is neither Armenian nor Greek. " Citation needed.
• Inner Pontus was a district of Chaldia I gather? Could you give an indication of where it is in modern terms?
• "a mountainous area, it was scarcely affected by Hellenization and preserved a traditional and archaic societal structure, centred around mountain strong-holds." repetition of mountain/ous, you might want to say "a mountainous stronghold, it was scarcely affected by Hellenization and preserved a traditional and archaic societal structure".

More to come later...♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking on the review! On the lead section, the first Constantine Gabras mentioned is not the same as the second, and does not currently have an article. Otherwise your suggestions have been implemented. On the "Origins" section, the citation for "but the surname..." is the same as for the other sentences (refs #2 and #3). Should I repeat it? I've linked Pontus, which is a term whose definition has varied over time. For the period in question, it would be coterminous with the hinterland of the Chaldia district, i.e. the Pontic Mountains. On the repetition, I know, but there really isn't a way to avoid it as it involves two distinct elements: the general topography of the area, which contributed to its isolation, and the societal structure, which focused on mountain-top fortresses controlling the valleys below. I am open to suggestions as to how to rephrase this best, though describing the entire area as a "mountainous stronghold" would be wrong. Looking forward to more... :) Constantine ✍ 11:46, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

My grandfather originates from a village of Matsouka Region near nowadays Trebizond , his family name was Gavras. He and all his family, and the whole of his village , and the whole of the Matsouka region , were speaking the Pontic Greek dialect which is very close to the ancient Greek language. Everybody from this region fought for the Byzantine empire and considered themselves Greeks and only Greeks. They also always mentioned that "we have relatives in Crete" and also that "we have kings and saints in our family". There is also a folk song of the region called "του Γαβρά" ("of Gavras"), speaking about the greatness of a military leader. It is considered to be of the Byzantine era meaning around 1000 years old . It is writen in Pontic Greek. In other folk songs of the region , of the same era, the heroes kill easily every enemy , with no hesitation, but they prefer to seem that they are afraid than to kill "Hellenes" (Greeks) , and they avoid fighting them because they don't want to fight Greeks . I think that Gavras family cannot be of any other origin than Greek . 2A02:587:491D:400:C1A2:60F5:70F9:721 (talk) 13:47, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%CE%B1%CF%85%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%AC%CF%89

Gavras surname most possibly originates from the ancient Greek language from the verb γαυριάω (gavriao) which means I walk with pride. It is very possible this word was used to describe, the mostly warrior, extended Gavras family. 2A02:587:491D:400:C1A2:60F5:70F9:721 (talk) 16:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I see. Yes, another citation for that it fine as it is something which somebody might want to verify. How about "due to many mountain-top fortresses defending the area, it was scarcely affected by Hellenization and preserved a traditional and archaic societal structure".♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:16, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Autonomous

• Can you link Frankish to the appropriate article?

Service

• "On the other hand, the pansebastos sebastos Michael Gabras was a general of Manuel I Komnenos, fighting against the Hungarians and the Seljuks, and became related to the imperial dynasty as a son-in-law of Andronikos Komnenos" -What time period was this?

Later Byzantium

• I don't think "thus" is needed.
• Link Serres in the first instance, delink the second.

In Crimea

• "A branch of the Gabras family is commonly identified by scholars with the family known from Russian sources as "Khovra", that ruled the small Principality of Theodoro, which was founded in the mid-14th century in the southwestern Crimea (in the area of "Gothia") and survived until conquered by the Ottoman Turks in 1475." A bit of a mouthful, can you split into two sentences and put a full stop after Khova to improve flow?? Something like "A branch of the Gabras family is commonly identified by scholars with the family known from Russian sources as "Khovra". They ruled the small Principality of Theodoro, which was founded in the mid-14th century in the "Gothia" area of southwestern Crimea and survived until conquered by the Ottoman Turks in 1475."
• qho?

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Good job.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, although, aside from the copyedits, how did the article read to you? It is the first time I nominate a "family" article for GA, and I don't know what the average reader expects. Beyond GA criteria, does it give a clear enough image of the family's history? Should I add more detail at places, more context? Constantine ✍ 05:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Fine, it seems a good account of the family and is easy to learn from, which is a good thing. You could go into a little more detail if you have the information, but as an overview it's certainly satisfactory for GA, and sometimes excessive detail on something which is hard to read is not a positive thing anyway.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)