Talk:Günther Schwägermann

Why is his life in post war Germany "rarely discussed?"

It is known that he survived the war, was not executed by the Allies after the war, and made a new life for himself. If he is still alive he is 95 years old. If not, there must be an official record of his date of death. So, why is his life in post war Germany "rarely discussed?" Can someone provide more information please? (71.22.47.232 (talk) 06:18, 14 February 2011 (UTC))

I was wondering that exact thing myself and second the call for more information. Either there's information or there's not. Whateverlolawants (talk) 09:13, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Later lived in northern Germany?

At least as of 1965, Der Spiegel seems to think he lived in Munich. Source. Relevant bit:

Günther Schwägermann, Hauptmann der Schutzpolizei und Adjutant von Goebbels, heute Bundesangestellter in München;

... but our article says (with an off-line reference) that he later lived in Northern Germany. These facts are not necessarily contradictory, as he could well have moved to Northern Germany later on. But if he had a government job in 1965 as Der Spiegel claims, he would have had pretty significant job security and little reason to move. At any rate, could whoever has a copy of the off-line reference verify that it says what it claims to say?Eniagrom (talk) 11:30, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I will check it tonight after I get home. Kierzek (talk) 12:41, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Cool, thanks!Eniagrom (talk) 14:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

It is brief. At the end of the bio summary, the book just states, he was held by US forces from 25 June 1945 to 24 April 1947. "Later lived in northern Germany." p. 292. Kierzek (talk) 11:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

No worries, thanks for checking. There's precious little info available on this man's life considering the events he witnessed, it's frustrating. Eniagrom (talk) 12:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

There is a new bio on Goebbels which is set to be released this year, it probably will have more information on him. Kierzek (talk) 12:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Was there any additional information about him in it? 152.93.100.14 (talk) 12:45, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

No. Not, post-war in the (bio) book, I mentioned above. Kierzek (talk) 18:29, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

When did Schwägermann die?

Djbcjk (talk) 11:13, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Unknown and therefore not listed until someone finds it written/listed in a WP:RS source. Kierzek (talk) 12:58, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Grave in Uelzen

A friend of mine recently visited Uelzen in Germany and told me that there was a grave belonging to Günther Schwägermann in a cemetery there. He did not take a picture of it, and also could not remember the birth date or year.

I myself have now booked a flight to Germany for next month, and will visit Uelzen and try to find this grave. It is not a big town, so it shouldn’t be very hard to find. If I find it, I will take a picture and post it here, hopefully with the birth year of 1915 so we will know it is the same person.

My question is this: Will such a picture along with added details like the full location be enough for it to be considered a valid source, or would I have to deliver it to some media outlet or institution? If so, could I post it here and have some of the more established Wikipedia editors relay it for me? Torbslifre (talk) 01:00, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I believe it will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A10:8005:5CD8:0:9CBD:6866:D7ED:5BC5 (talk) 09:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Technically it's not considered a reliable source, however rules are always there for exceptions to be made. If there is a consensus amongst users on here that it will suffice, we can use it. For me it has to include a matching date of birth. If it has that then in my opinion it's indisputably him. Post it here once you get the picture! --Jkaharper (talk) 10:43, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Post a picture and it will be given consideration. Kierzek (talk) 12:42, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

I’m here now, but I haven’t found it yet, as there are a lot of cemeteries here. I talked to a local historian here and he told me Schwägermann moved to Uelzen in his latter years with a family, and died in the 80s or 90s. He also said his grave is here in one of the cemeteries.

I will spend the next few days looking for it, and won’t leave before I find it. Also, how do I upload photos here? I don’t see an option. I was also thinking I could record a video where I show the whole cemetery and the grave from multiple angles, and upload it to YouTube. Which is preferable? Torbslifre (talk) 17:39, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

A photo will suffice. Just use a photo upload site like https://imgbb.com/, and then copy the link here. Jkaharper (talk) 18:46, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Well I have turned every stone I possibly could have, but I must sadly say my attempt to find his grave has failed.

I talked to multiple historians and very few knew much about him. It should be noted that I was informed that he underwent a namechange at some point, but I have been unable to verify this, and it seems very hard to do so. I visited every cemetery and talked to workers at all of them, but nobody could tell me anything.

The best I found was a grave of a man who had the exact same birthdate and year as him, and died in 1987, which is consistent with what some other expert told me earlier, that Schwägermann died in the 80s or 90s (I talked about that in this thread earlier). So if he did in fact have a namechange there is a slight chance that was him, but it seems unlikely and like I said it’s very difficult to verify. So I’m not trying to claim it’s him, just wanted to share it in case anyone knows anything. Torbslifre (talk) 00:35, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Confirmed dead?

I see that the article has been changed from living status unknown to confirmed dead but unknown deathdate. I find this quite weird as I don’t understand how a centenarian list can be considered reliable, when there very likely could be people missing from such lists, and there are also chances he could have changed his name, and so on. Is the centenarian list even RS? Also, where is the source to this centenarian list anyway? I don’t see it listed anywhere in the article. Torbslifre (talk) 00:39, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

It's pretty standard that we do this for bios of subjects from countries where (most of the) living people 107+ are recorded. It's not hard to pull it up online. Just Google "oldest living men in Germany" and it will appear. They're posted on other Wikis and forums which is why they're not cited directly. However, they're authored by leading gerontologists and I've never questioned their reliability. Whilst you are correct in theory that he could have changed his name, relocated to a different country etc., he would have been detected at some point if still alive at this point. But I think to claim there is any real probability of him being alive is pure conspiracy. When dealing with bios of men older than the oldest living subjects of their respective country, we have to work off of what is 99.99% probable, which is that they're deceased. In the United Kingdom, for example, there are only about 10-15 aged 107+ men out of a male population of 32.9 million who are alive in any given year (including the few names who are missing from published lists). In Germany, it will probably be ~20. If a prominent Nazi was among them, name change or not, then it would have been detected. There is no evidence for outlying factors i.e. a name change or of him emigrating to another country. Wiki bios shouldn't give weight to conspiracy theories or the peripherals of "what if". --Jkaharper (talk) 15:19, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'm not actually trying to make the argument that he's alive, the chances of this is pretty much 0 as you mention. My point (that I probably should have made more clear earlier) is rather that such a change in the article, no matter how likely it is, should have something reliable to back it up. Especially when it is presented with the certainty that it is. Based on that I had issues with seeing the reliability of the centenarian list, especially considering it being unsourced, but based on what you say I now trust your judgment regarding it. I also just thought that the previous solution, leaving his status as unconfirmed, was more correct as it was more neutral and technically the truth. Torbslifre (talk) 00:57, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Sometimes WP:IGNOREALLRULES and WP:COMMONSENSE need to be applied above the general guidelines. To most people out there, a biography with a birthdate and no death date suggests to them that the individual is still alive. In the case of Schwagermann, several places online (mainly forums, social media) suggest he was alive circa 2013. That’s not because anyone had a single shred of evidence to back that up (his last known whereabouts/living status was recorded in the 1960s), it’s because someone took a look at his Wikipedia page and saw there wasn’t a death date so assumed he was living. Wikipedia can serve as a source of misinformation on this front sadly. Once it’s safe to state an individual is deceased based on what we know (in this case centenarian record keeping), it’s better to state that they’re deceased. --Jkaharper (talk) 01:20, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

That just seems like a case of people not doing their research properly. If Wikipedia was to adjust itself based on that, then that would be a bad standard to set in my view. I don't know everything about all the templates, but is it possible to list people as status of living unknown, or something of the kind? Torbslifre (talk) 17:40, 24 August 2022 (UTC)