Talk:Fundamental Epistle

re: quotes

I noticed that in March, you deleted all the quotations from Fundamental Epistle article, without any discussion whatsoever. I'm sure your intention was to "clean up the article", and remove large quotations, which, I imagine you might say, would belong in a Wikitext article or something. However, by deleting those quotations, you deleted a substantial amount of work that someone (namely me) had done to collect those quotations from out of Augustine's works. It seems to me that it would have been more appropriate to suggest moving the material to Wikitext - or wherever you think it should go - instead of completely deleting material (and a few hours of work), which was relevant to the topic - "Manichaean texts", and which other people researching that topic would likely be interested in seeing. Jimhoward72 (talk) 19:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

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The lengthy quotes I removed here and here would be better suited for WikiQuotes.

To quote Wikipedia:Quotations:

Wikipedia is, at its core, an encyclopedia, and not an opportunity to list the best and worst quotations pertaining to an article's subject. If there are many quotations, please move them to Wikiquote and place a Wikiquote template on the article to inform readers that there are relevant quotations regarding the subject.

I hope this clears things up for you. If you have more comments or questions, please let me know. Kingturtle (talk) 19:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright - my only question would be, since these quotes were basically everything we have from a particular historical/religious text, namely, the Fundamental Epistle, why wouldn't it make sense to create a wiki-text article, instead of a wiki-quote article? Would it matter if it were a wiki-text article instead?Jimhoward72 (talk) 19:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

In discussing this matter with another admin, WikiQuotes would probably be the best direction for this, although there would be nothing wrong with WikiSource. Kingturtle (talk) 20:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Here are the quotes, if anyone will make the effort to put them in WikiSource. WikiSource to me seems the best, since eventually it would be desired that numerous source texts of Manichaeism will eventually find their way into WikiSource:Jimhoward72 (talk) 15:26, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Augustine's Quotations of the Fundamental Epistle (English translation)

Fundamental Epistle

Manichæus, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the providence of God the Father. These are wholesome words from the perennial and living fountain; and whoever shall have heard them, and shall have first believed them, and then shall have observed the truths they set forth, shall never suffer death, but shall enjoy eternal life in glory. For he is to be judged truly blessed who has been instructed in this divine knowledge, by which he is made free and shall abide in everlasting life.

[Note: "Patticus" refers to Mani's father "Patik"]

Of that matter, beloved brother of Patticus, of which you told me, saying that you desired to know the manner of the birth of Adam and Eve, whether they were produced by a word or sprung from matter, I will answer you as is fit. For in various writings and narratives we find different assertions made and different descriptions given by many authors. Now the real truth on the subject is unknown to all peoples, even to those who have long and frequently treated of it. For had they arrived at a clear knowledge of the generation of Adam and Eve, they would not have remained liable to corruption and death. Necessarily, many things have to be said by way of preface, before a discovery of this mystery free from all uncertainty can be made.

Accordingly, hear first, if you please, what happened before the constitution of the world, and how the battle was carried on, that you may be able to distinguish the nature of light from that of darkness.

In the beginning, then, these two substances were divided. The empire of light was held by God the Father, who is perpetual in holy origin, magnificent in virtue, true in His very nature, ever rejoicing in His own eternity, possessing in Himself wisdom and the vital senses, by which He also includes the twelve members of His light, which are the plentiful resources of his kingdom. Also in each of His members are stored thousands of untold and priceless treasures. But the Father Himself, chief in praise, incomprehensible in greatness, has united to Himself happy and glorious worlds, incalculable in number and duration, along with which this holy and illustrious Father and Progenitor resides, no poverty or infirmity being admitted in His magnificent realms. And these matchless realms are so founded on the region of light and bliss, that no one can ever move or disturb them.

In one direction on the border of this bright and holy land there was a land of darkness deep and vast in extent, where abode fiery bodies, destructive races. Here was boundless darkness, flowing from the same source in immeasurable abundance, with the productions properly belonging to it. Beyond this were muddy turbid waters with their inhabitants; and inside of them winds terrible and violent with their prince and their progenitors. Then again a fiery region of destruction, with its chiefs and peoples. And similarly inside of this a race full of smoke and gloom, where abode the dreadful prince and chief of all, having around him innumerable princes, himself the mind and source of them all. Such are the five natures of the pestiferous land.

[from Augustine, Against the Fundamental Epistle of the Manichaeans]

[Note: the following paragraph describes events happening as the world of darkness begins its attack on the world of light]

But the Father of the most blessed light, knowing that great ruin and desolation which would arise from the darkness, threaten his holy worlds, unless he should send in opposition a deity excellent and renowned, mighty in strength, by whom he might at the same time overcome and destroy the race of darkness, which having been extinguished, the inhabitants of light would enjoy perpetual rest.

[Note: the following paragraph describes events in the world of darkness, after they have captured the light from the world of light]

Therefore with wicked inventions he said to those present: What does this huge light that is rising seem to you to be? See how the pole moves, how it shakes most of the powers. Wherefore it is right for me rather to ask you beforehand for whatever light you have in your powers: since thus I will form an image of that great one who has appeared in his glory, through which we may be able to rule, freed in some measure from the conversation of darkness. Hearing these things, and deliberating for a long time among themselves, they thought it most just to furnish what was demanded of them. For they did not have confidence in being able to retain the light that they had forever; hence they thought it better to offer it to their Prince, by no means without hope that in this way they would rule. It must be considered therefore how they furnished the light that they had. For this also is scattered throughout all the divine scriptures and the heavenly secrets; but to the wise it is easy enough to know how it was given: for it is known immediately and openly by him who should truly and faithfully wish to consider. Since there was a promiscuous throng of those who had come together, females and males of course, he impelled them to copulate among themselves: in which copulation the males emitted seed, the females were made pregnant. But the offspring were like those who had begotten them, the first obtaining as it were the largest portion of the parents' strength. Taking these as a special gift their Prince rejoiced. And just as even now we see take place, that the nature of evil taking thence strength forms the fashioner of bodies, so also the aforesaid Prince, taking the offspring of his companions, which had the senses of their parents, sagacity, light, procreated at the same time with themselves in the process of generation, devoured them; and very many powers having been taken from food of this kind, in which there was present not only fortitude, but much more astuteness and depraved sensibilities from the ferocious race of the progenitors, he called his own spouse to himself, springing from the same stock as himself, emitted, like the rest the abundance of evils that he had devoured, himself also adding something from his own thought and power, so that his disposition became the former and arranger of all the things that he had poured forth; whose consort received these things as soil cultivated in the best way is accustomed to receive seed. For in her were constructed and woven together the images of all heavenly and earthly powers, so that what was formed obtained the likeness, so to speak, of a full orb.

[From Augustine, On the Nature of Good, against the Manichaeans]

Augustine's Quotations of the Fundamental Epistle (Original Latin)

Epistola Fundamenti

Manichaeus apostolus Iesu Christi providentia Dei Patris. Haec sunt salubria verba, ex perenni ac vivo fonte; quae qui audierit, et eisdem primum crediderit, deinde quae insinuant custodierit, numquam erit morti obnoxius, verum aeterna et gloriosa vita fruetur. Nam profecto beatus est iudicandus, qui hac divina instructus cognitione fuerit, per quam liberatus in sempiterna vita permanebit.

De eo igitur, frater dilectissime Pattici, de quo mihi significasti, dicens: Nosse te cupere cuiusmodi sic nativitas Adae et Evae, utrum verbo sint iidem prolati, an primogeniti ex corpore: respondebitur tibi ut congruit. Namque de his a plerisque in variis scripturis revelationibusque dissimili modo insertum atque commemoratum est. Quapropter veritas istius rei ut sese habet ab universis fere gentibus ignoratur, et ab omnibus qui etiam de hoc diu multumque disputarunt. Si enim illis super Adae et Evae generatione provenisset manifesto cognoscere, numquam corruptioni et morti subiacerent. Necessario ergo plura sunt ante commemoranda, ut ad istud mysterium sine ulla possit ambiguitate perveniri.

Unde si tibi videtur, ausculta prius quae fuerint ante constitutionem mundi, et quo pacto praelium sit agitatum, ut possis luminis seiungere naturam ac tenebrarum.

Haec quippe, in exordio fuerunt, duae substantiae a sese divisae. Et luminis quidem imperium tenebat Deus Pater, in sua sancta stirpe perpetuus, in virtute magnificus, natura ipsa verus, aeternitate propria semper exsultans, continens apud se sapientiam et sensus vitales: per quos etiam duodecim membra luminis sui comprehendit, regni videlicet proprii divitias affluentes. In unoquoque autem membrorum eius sunt recondita millia innumerabilium et immensorum thesaurorum. Ipse vero Pater in sua laude praecipuus, magnitudine incomprehensibilis, copulata habet sibi beata et gloriosa saecula, neque numero, neque prolixitate aestimanda, cum quibus idem sanctus atque illustris Pater et genitor degit, nullo in regnis eius insignibus aut indigente aut infirmo constituto. Ita autem fundata sunt eiusdem splendidissima regna supra lucidam et beatam terram, ut a nullo umquam aut moveri aut concuti possint.

Iuxta unam vero partem ac latus illustris illius ac sanctae terrae erat tenebrarum terra profunda et immensa magnitudine, in qua habitabant ignea corpora, genera scilicet pestifera. Hic infinitae tenebrae, ex eadem manantes natura inaestimabiles, cum propriis fetibus: ultra quas erant aquae coenosae ac turbidae cum suis inhabitatoribus; quarum interius venti horribiles ac vehementes cum suo principe et genitoribus. Rursum regio ignea et corruptibilis cum suis ducibus et nationibus. Pari more introrsum gens caliginis ac fumi plena, in qua morabatur immanis princeps omnium et dux, habens circa se innumerabiles principes, quorum omnium ipse erat mens atque origo: haeque fuerunt naturae quinque terrae pestiferae.

[.....]

Lucis vero beatissimae Pater, sciens labem magnam ac vastitatem quae ex tenebris surgeret, adversus sua sancta impendere saecula, nisi aliquod eximium ac praeclarum et virtute potens numen opponat, quo superet simul ac destruat stirpem tenebrarum, qua exstincta perpetua quies lucis incolis pararetur.

[.....]

Iniquis igitur commentis ad eos qui aderant ait: Quid vobis videtur maximum hoc lumen quod oritur? Intuemini quemadmodum polum movet, concutit plurimas potestates. Quapropter mihi vos potius aequum est, id quod in vestris viribus habetis luminis praerogare: sic quippe illius magni qui gloriosus apparuit, imaginem fingam, per quam regnare poterimus, tenebrarum aliquando conversatione liberati. Haec audientes, ac diu secum deliberantes, iustissimum putaverunt id quod postulabantur praebere. Nec enim fidebant se idem lumen iugiter retenturos: unde melius rati sunt principi suo id offerre, nequaquam desperantes eodem se pacto regnaturos. Quo igitur modo lumen illud quod habebant praebuerint, considerandum est. Nam hoc etiam omnibus divinis scripturis arcanisque coelestibus aspersum est: sapientibus vero quomodo sit datum scire minime est difficile: nam coram aperteque cognoscitur ab eo qui vere ac fideliter intueri voluerit. Quoniam eorum qui convenerant frequentia promiscua erat, feminarum scilicet ac masculorum, impulit eos ut inter se coirent: in quo coitu alii seminarunt, aliae gravidae effectae sunt. Erant autem partus iis qui genuerant similes, vires plurimas parentum uti primi obtinentes. Haec sumens eorum princeps uti praecipuum donum gavisus est. Et sicuti etiam nunc fieri videmus, corporum formatricem naturam mali inde vires sumentem figurare: ita etiam ante dictus princeps sodalium prolem accipiens, habentem parentum sensus, prudentiam, lucem simul secum in generatione procreatam, comedit; ac plerisque viribus sumptis ex istiusmodi esca, in qua non modo inerat fortitudo, sed multo magis astutiae et pravi sensus ex fera genitorum gente, propriam ad se coniugem evocavit, ex ea qua ipse erat stirpe manantem; et facto cum ea coitu, seminavit, ut caeteri, abundantiam malorum quae devoraverat: nonnihil etiam ipse adiiciens ex sua cogitatione ac virtute, ut esset sensus eius omnium eorum quae profuderat formator atque descriptor; cuius compar excipiebat haec, ut semen consuevit culta optime terra percipere. In eadem enim construebantur et contexebantur omnium imagines, coelestium ac terrenarum virtutum, ut pleni videlicet orbis, id quod formabatur, similitudinem obtineret.