Talk:Fuad Hamza

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Sourcing for nationality/ethnicity/place of birth

(brought here from a Teahouse post)

This seems a mess regarding sources. Also, the article is a bit contradictory.

Palestinian?

The subject is described as "Palestinian" in the lead and later on "he was from Palestine" is written with this PhD thesis as source. Already the two are a bit different (ethnicity vs. place of birth) but my main problem with that is that the source is shaky. The relevant passage (p.45) reads Fuad Hamzah was a Palestinian refugee who accompanied the King in 1928. It itself cites no source that could apply to the "Palestinian refugee" part of the sentence.

Also, OR, but I would note that the refugee part is hard to believe. There were essentially no refugees out of Palestine between 1920 (establishment of the British mandate) and 1936 (the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine). He could hardly be a refugee post-1936 either, since from another source he had a house in Beyrut and was already a top diplomat in April 1937. Most likely, if they were a refugee, it was at some point between 1916 and 1919, when they were between 17 and 20. This would have severely interfered with their ability to get a degree at the Jerusalem law school.

Born in Abey (Lebanon)?

The place of birth is sourced to ref #2 which I cannot access and ref #3 which I can. The footnote at the bottom of page 351 in ref #3 supports a birth in Lebanon in 1899 but not the exact place of birth. It also says see his biography in al-Zereky, al-a‘lām [Biographical Dictionary], vol.5, p.159. (I am not sure what that initial source is and could not read it, maybe someone else can track it down?). There are a few recent sources that give that place of birth (example from the teahouse post) but those are probably WP:CITOGENESIS.

What next? I would certainly remove all mentions of Palestinian/comes from Palestine unless a better source is found. For the birth in Abey, if someone could verify ref #2 and give the exact quote that would be great, or even better track the biographic volume cited by ref #3, else I intend to tag it with some variant of "citation needed". Any objections?

I can use other sources in the article stating that he was a Palestinian, but I do not know whether or not you can access them or like them. So if you remove the mentions of Palestinian, all will be reinserted with additional sources, Egeymi (talk) 11:24, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another point is that the sources you're referring to do not say anything about his origin, but the ref 4 says so. You may look at the fourth ref. In addition, other reports about his origin are also given in the article which are put to indicate the neutral approach towards the subject.Egeymi (talk) 11:28, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am not an expert in nationality/ethnicity in the Levant by any means but "born in Lebanon" and "Palestinian" are seemingly contradictory. If there are some subtleties (borders moved? born in country X but lived early life in country Y / had family from group Z?) they should be explained in the article (and sourced). If reliable sources disagree, we should mention it with attribution; I think the language of the "Druze from Lebanon/Syria" part does it well, but "Palestinian" and "born in Lebanon" come without any such qualifiers.

I agree that ref #4 (Diplomatic history of Saudi Arabia, 1903-1960's, which I have looked at, unless you are talking about another) is the only ref mentioning their ethnicity clearly (or at least the only one mentioning it clearly among those sources I read). I assert that source is not reliable for the assertion that FH was a Palestinian refugee. Not because "I do not like it", but because that exact fact (1) is given without citation to a primary source (as would be expected in scholarly work of that type), (2) is in context a very tangential point (so possibly the author and thesis examiners would not have checked it carefully), and (3) does not seem credible at face value (see WP:EXTRAORDINARY). That thesis might still be a reliable source for other topics. If you have another source that does say they are Palestinian (refugee or not), please add it to the article (inline, next to the first occurrence of the "Palestinian" claim).

On the other hand, it seems to me that there is sufficient sourcing for the assertion that he is born in Lebanon in 1899. I do not see the mention of Abey in ref #3 though. If ref #2 (The public presentation of authority in Saudi Arabia during the 20th century...) mentions it, that’s sufficient (barring other sources disputing it), but I cannot verify it; if you have access to it, please provide the page number (WP:FULLCITE) and/or a quote (not a guideline requirement, but it would help other people that cannot go through the paywall). Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 15:39, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is hard to believe that you are insisting to revert my edits although there are now more sources indicating his nationality. If you revert the edits about both his birth place, Abey, and his Palestinian sources I think it would be better to consult to related Wikipedia units.--Egeymi (talk) 10:24, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

per your wish I am writing here. There will be more sources about Abey soon whenever I have time. Egeymi (talk) 11:11, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your questioning about this well-sourced article, hope you do the same for those which do not present any reliable source, but assert many strong claims about many significant things, Egeymi (talk) 11:14, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]